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Riot, it's about time you normalized ranges of spells and autoattacks to be on one standard

FalconPawwwwnch··169 votes·7,507 views

This is a ridiculous archaic mechanic that doesn't even make sense.

Here's what I mean. Autoattack and spell ranges are NOT measured using the same standard. Autoattack ranges are measured from the end of the target champion's model, whereas spell ranges are measured from the center of the champion's model.

I.e. The range a caster would be able to cast from a 6 stack cho'gath would not be different from a 0 stack cho'gath, because the center of Cho's model doesn't change; HOWEVER, the range an autoattacker would be able to attack a 6 stack cho'gath would be much farther than a 0 stack cho'gath because the end of his model increases in length. Basically, a 700 range spell is MUCH shorter than a 700 range autoattack, etc.

There's really no reason autoattack and spell ranges aren't measured using the same standard. You guys went on about "clarity" being a priority when changing summoners rift; making AAs and spells use the same standard would be much better because many players don't know about this difference in standards and would help clarify that no, Jax leap does NOT have more range than caitlyn AA.

The logic might be that autoattacks (bullets) should be calculated from the impact range, which makes sense, but then what's the difference between a bullet and ryze's Q? If cho'gath increases in size I'm pretty sure it'd make more sense for Jax to leap as soon as he gets in range of his tail instead of saying "Hm, his center isn't in range but he has a good 6 feet of tail that I can jump to... Nah I'll wait."

Edit: Fyi this refers mainly for targetted spells like Nasus W, Jax Q, Ryze Kit (lol) etc. Pretty sure skillshots are measured using edge to edge too

51 Comments

41noob35 votes

+1 god bless

DUDE BRO12 votes

+0 it's not so simple.

This means max stax Cho will have drastically increased range on his Q. Nasus will also have increased range on his abilites (A feature that was built in, but manually removed) and anyone who is ulted by lulu will also get increased range.

Auto attacks are fine as normally the larger champions are melee and thus the range increase is needed so they don't have to be standing inside the enemy to attack it.

Also, elixir of iron will become a 'range' increaser.

ULTRAF0RCE4 votes

what if they have the auto attacks have their auto attack range based on the center of the model

TheKingDodo11 votes

{quoted} what if they have the auto attacks have their auto attack range based on the center of the model

Rip big fat Tanky champs: Chogath, Sion, Volibear

ULTRAF0RCE4 votes

I will have to admit they would need to modify auto attack ranges to do it effectively, though it would work better to have auto attack range based on center and made longer than to deal with the amount of weird programming that would go into making the spells measured from the champion model extremes, especially with spells like riven's w which is a circle around her.

Mr chiral center3 votes

Yeah, but it would look goofy when big tanks are targeted w/ ranged AAs. The ranged champ would be way closer to the edge of the tank champ model than if targeting a normal squishy, making the range seem less than it should be. I think range of AA and spells should be from the outside of character model, it makes more sense 'realistically', and it would be less clunky looking.

Gavran3 votes

Autoattack ranges are measured from the end of the ***target *** champion's model, whereas spell ranges are measured from the center of the champion's model.

Everything should be from the center.

Meep Man6 votes

Actually, it is much simpler. No one cares if they gain increased spell range, it will make up for the fact that they can be attacked from a longer range than they can cast spells. Also, Elixir of Iron is already a range increaser... for basic attacks.

OyddAWqJ5r15 votes

You took it in the exact opposite way of what the OP was saying lol.

He isn't speaking of model size increases increasing the range of the larger model's spells/basic attacks, but rather the the standard sized adc/mage's effective range when attacking the model size increased champion.

To put in simpler terms:

Marksman with 600 range hits target from slightly further than 600 due to basic attacks targeting the model's hitbox and not the center of the model.

Mage with 600 range spell hits target at exactly 600 range due to spells targeting the center of the model and not the model itself.

So if the model size increases the marksman can now shoot it from even further away while spells still have to be exactly 600 units from the model's center regardless of its size.

Comprende?

HidingOverHere3 votes

[{quoted}](name=DUDE BRO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RrrNRURE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2014-12-15T22:45:53.729+0000)

+0 it's not so simple.

This means max stax Cho will have drastically increased range on his Q. Nasus will also have increased range on his abilites (A feature that was built in, but manually removed) and anyone who is ulted by lulu will also get increased range.

Auto attacks are fine as normally the larger champions are melee and thus the range increase is needed so they don't have to be standing inside the enemy to attack it.

Also, elixir of iron will become a 'range' increaser.

I dont see what's wrong with this, model size increasing range adds another level of complexity this game could use. Of course Riot never likes to take any innovative risks because "balance" but that should be what PBE is for to get some sort of feedback. Instead it seems they just dont feel like ever incorporating new concepts to keep the game fresh. Their archaic "balance" mentality is seriously holding them back and is why League will continue to decline in interest and players.

Leaf of the lake2 votes

The most important aspect of "range" is how much you have relative to your opponent. If everyone's ranges worked on the same standard, increasing your size wouldn't help you at all, since everyone else would also have increased range against you. Currently, elixer of iron has the function of making your targeted spells shorter ranged compared to AAs. The suggested change here would bring equality, such that increasing size would have the exact same effect on all ally and enemy attacks/abilities.

BillDance1 votes

[{quoted}](name=DUDE BRO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RrrNRURE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2014-12-15T22:45:53.729+0000)

+0 it's not so simple.

This means max stax Cho will have drastically increased range on his Q. Nasus will also have increased range on his abilites (A feature that was built in, but manually removed) and anyone who is ulted by lulu will also get increased range.

Auto attacks are fine as normally the larger champions are melee and thus the range increase is needed so they don't have to be standing inside the enemy to attack it.

Also, elixir of iron will become a 'range' increaser.

that would not be true... well yes it would be a range increaser BUT it would shorten the area of being able to be hit by the enemy.. by having it the way it is, cho actually loses a bit of range with his size vs the distance of opponent from cho... get me?

The Loveless2 votes

-1 cus there's nothing wrong with OP's suggestion.

Teridax6815 votes

I completely agree with this. Edge-to-edge range measurement should be the standard for all remaining targeted spells, as it syncs directly with the visual feedback you'd get from a champion and their hitbox.

Generally, there are a few under-the-hood spell mechanics out there that just need to be standardized: a little while back, Riot was focusing on making ults with cast times reset their cooldowns if the user died before completing the cast (e.g. Jinx launching her Super Mega Death Rocket! or Lux casting her laser and them dying before firing either), and more recently there were a few adjustments to targeted spells by making them edge-to-edge. League probably needs an overhaul to its underlying systems (Rioters keep complaining about how a lot of its tech and code is old and clunky), and in doing so should unify mechanics like these.

Pikmints6 votes

Genuine question, when the champion fires a ranged auto does the projectile actually come into existence in the center of their model or the end of it?

If you were standing inside of Yasuo's windwall would the wall stop your projectile, and thus the projectile be coming from the center of your model? Or would the windwall not destroy the projectile because it's created at the edge of your character? I think that this is something to take into consideration, where the projectile actually starts from.

Laughing Fish5 votes

It makes sense really. Most autoattack (not all) are physical attacks being made with the end of a limb. Even the magic based autoattacks such as Velkoz come from the end of a limb. But most abilities (again, not all) come from either inner power or some mechanism near the center of a champ. Since you brought it up, let's use the 6 stacks Chogath example. His autoattack gains range as his arms grow longer, as longer limbs naturally grant longer reach. But none of his abilities are generated by his arms. His Q is generated by magic, and comes when he stomps his feet (which are located near the center). His W comes from his mouth, which again is located much closer to the center then his arms. His E is being launched from his body, which is of course his center. And finally his R is once again his mouth, which is near the center of his model. So as you can see, it is perfectly logical to have autoattack range cone from the end of the model, and ability range to come from the center.

FyshinaTux9 votes

For the sake of clarity, this change needs to occur. You can't PUSH for clarity like Riot has done, but keep something simply for "thematic" representation if it is unclear... that's pretty counter-intuitive.

Laughing Fish9 votes

Oh I agree with that. Even though it may be logical to have autoattacks and abilities come from slightly different points, it is not as clear. This is a game afterall, clarity is more important than logic.

HobbitWolfe1 votes

Logic is clarity

IncomingGh0st5 votes

Good idea, and I thought coming into the thread you were gonna say all AA's need to be the same range and all spells need to be the same range

+1

FyshinaTux4 votes

I believe this is also an issue that afflicts targeted spells vs skillshot spells.

EDIT: Considering I learned about this because I picked Ryze into Darius (Ryze Rune Prison has "more range" than Darius pull), and proceeded to get pulled everytime I snared him... yea, quite aggravating.

Aheadatime4 votes

Hard to understand the post, or maybe I'm just being stupid. Do you mean that

  1. Spells are cast from the center of the caster, or
  2. Spells are cast towards the center of the opponent?
Hibeki1 votes

He meant the first one, but this isn't entirely true.

Have someone standing the closest to you as possible, some skill shots can spawn from the other side of them and not hit them.

Like EZ R, or Brand Q, for example

junglerboy163 votes

At first, when I saw the title of this thread I thought it was going to say something like all spells and auto attacks should be like 600 range. Don't know why, Just did. I agree though, they should make the range values standardized.

ImHerVoice3 votes

+1 preach it babe.

Grunt6663 votes

Maybe they should standardize all the hit box sizes as well...atleast so if i click on a part of the graphic of a model it actually registers. Some characters hit bozes are actually smaller than their model right now cough like jayce.

Meep Man2 votes

And even if doing this doesn't work, they could make spell ranges scale with size like basic attacks.

Xela Syab2 votes

I think this is to make up for the fact that cho is easier to hit with stacks than a no stack cho.

Old Man Teeto2 votes

In game client is a relic of the game.

We just got a minor upgrade to the map, will be an eternity before they work on the platform to change the fundamental systems combat is based around.

Digitality2 votes

Why is this a problem and where is the lack of clarity for anyone except from third party information?

Cressalia2 votes

Let's see, if you attack with a sword, you're using your whole body right? Nope. It's an extension of your arm thus making your reach longer. If you changed auto attacks to come from the body and not the arm of piece of the body, it would make no sense in a real physical situation. And only certain spells come from a champs center. I know ezreals come from his hands so it's not the center of his body. How about we stop and take physics and the real world into consideration next time.

HadesHellfire1 votes

lol take physics and real world into consideration. its a game including magic and spells. i think you're thinking too deeply into this

LOMAC692 votes

All together, does it matter? They will nurf or buff any ranges that are not working. When someones auto attacks seem to short or fire to far, Riot will do something about it. This goes for spell cast ranges as well. summoner 31

Grouchy Poro2 votes

I think spells are from the champ's center because of how they work. If you could only cast them from the edge of the model it would look kinda weird and meaningless. Then the issue with projectile aa's would be that the projectile would come from the center of the champion there by reducing some clarity itself. Ashe shoots an arrow from her bow but it comes out her chest? No thank you; that itself is confusing.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

I disagree with your opinion here.

I think there should be pros and cons to autos versus spells. I think right now there are both in a balanced way, whereas this change would remove this.

Right now, having a larger champion hitbox makes you more easily hit by auto attacks and by skillshot spells, but targeted spells gain no advantage. Similarly, a smaller hitbox makes you harder to hit with skillshots and forces closer range for auto attacks, but targeted spells aren't at a disadvantage.

So targeted spells are relatively better against smaller hitboxes, and skillshots (/autos) are more effective against larger hitboxes. If you make targeted spells edge to edge, it's just one more disadvantage for larger hitboxes. Larger champions have enough disadvantages, mainly wrt skillshots, already. Further, it just doesn't make sense for a targeted spell to be edge to edge, in most cases a targeted spell hits its target dead on the center to cause the desired effect, if you allowed edge to edge it wouldn't be the same and should have reduced effects when you hit the edge. In contrast, making a skillshot need to hit the center is equally ridiculous, it would make no sense to watch an ahri charm fly right through cho'gath but not charm him (or any other skillshot). From a flow gameplay you need skillshots to be able to hit champions anywhere.

Auto attacks are more flexible, but in general a larger champion should benefit from increased attack range. A fully stacked cho'gath should be able to reach farther than an empty one. An adc hit with a lulu ult should be able to shoot their weapon farther than one without it.

Not to mention, it's not at all like spell/attack ranges aren't balanced for this difference... Riot is well aware of it and has even made patches to update ranges to accurately reflect these differences. The amount of rebalancing required alone is enough to make this not worth pursuing, even if the logic arguments above didn't apply.

4nth0l0gy1 votes

Yeah, I don't mind a little randomness in a game, but that's just poor clarity.

Rito Sheckelberg1 votes

Zac LOL

Caitlyn Twitch Tristana KogMaw + Lulu

Moonshade1 votes

Reason why I believe the spells originate from the center is items like Phantom Dancer on melee champions would allow them to walk through you to dodge skill shots (more so than now) so the center of model is used to make it easier to hit bruisers with the power to path through units, while AAs have maximized range when measured from edge so they are attempting to max out AA range while making skill shots more accurate (least thats my guess)

Fed by Snu Snu1 votes

Lissandra R has less range that her auto attack range. I'm pretty sure they were intended to have the same.

Englishh1 votes

Bump

Stark60001 votes

center to center is the fair way, nice effing find, can't believe i haven't noticed this.

SuperSourCat1 votes

It's not as simple as you think child....

Meep Man1 votes

Zac Zac size increase finally buffs him for real! It even makes since too!

HateDaddy1 votes

I agree FriendPawwwnch, buff Cho'Gath

Glitter Spitter1 votes

i like the concept, i would have to see it in action to know for sure if this is significant. otherwise +1 for something new

Urdnot Entar1 votes

Bumped and upvoted.

It's a perfectly valid and good idea so, sadly, Riot will probably ignore it. In addition, Riot's actions thus far have shown us quite clearly that they don't like consistency.

Blackwindy1 votes

so, free range for blitz q when he buys that size elixir?

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