Vi's HP% damage

The Ecdysiast·Mar 2, 2015·7 votes·1,955 views

That is: Why does she have it? Her other moves all hit plenty hard even with only two damage items and the rest tank. Sure, you can say it's for fighting tanks. But shouldn't someone have to build Bork instead of just having a passive that nearly replaces it? And shouldn't HP% damage be reserved for champs whose main roles are tank, not fighter? She builds Warrior's instead of Juggernaut because she does a ton of damage even when she stops buying damage items, and she has two knockups. They should either make her mostly tank or less resistant. It's almost like fighting a Vayne you can't kill alone.

Nevermind her ability to Q in, ult, and punch once to kill you.

Edit: You CANNOT compare her to other broken examples of HP% damage (J4, Lee, Gnar) in your argument. You're just naming off more champions who shouldn't have it.

39 Comments

Kitten of EvilMar 2, 20153 votes

I think it's fine. % damage isn't uncommon on bruisers/tankier champions (Amumu, Maokai, Warwick, Poppy) and it helps keep them relevant late-game. If Vi needs to be dialed back, I don't think her % damage is the problem.

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

Amumu and Mao aren't "tankier." They're tanks, and Mao's is almost negligible because of the cooldown.. Which is my point. Other fighters don't have that HP% damage because it's balanced to make them need AD items to do damage. Warwick's % damage is broken anyway, but it's okay because he doesn't have any CC or gap-closers besides his ultimate. Poppy needs to focus on a single enemy, and her % bonus is capped and static instead of scaling.

You only see % damage on champions who either don't have gap-closers or have other shortcomings. Vi is not lacking in movement or CC, and certainly isn't lacking in damage from her other abilities. WW has a second passive instead of any real ability, but his is nowhere near as effective.

1st HanarSpectreMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Amumu and Mao aren't "tankier." They're tanks, and Mao's is almost negligible because of the cooldown.. Which is my point. Other fighters don't have that HP% damage because it's balanced to make them need AD items to do damage. Warwick's % damage is broken anyway, but it's okay because he doesn't have any CC or gap-closers besides his ultimate. Poppy needs to focus on a single enemy, and her % bonus is capped and static instead of scaling.

You only see % damage on champions who either don't have gap-closers or have other shortcomings. Vi is not lacking in movement or CC, and certainly isn't lacking in damage from her other abilities. WW has a second passive instead of any real ability, but his is nowhere near as effective.

That's just wrong. Gnar, Shyvana, Gragas, Nasus, Sion, Trundle are all bruisers with % health damage. Jarvan, Xin and Mundo have current health % and are also bruisers.

In fact, Kitten of evil is correct, %health is usually found in bruisers more so than any other class.

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

Mundo and Nasus are tanks, not bruisers. Sion doesn't have the same damage or mobility Vi has. Gnar should be put on the list of people who need hp% damage remved as well, since he has everything Vi has, more CC, and more escapes. And I'm sorry but 15% of an enemy's current health on an ultimate is negligible on Xin. The point is that she should knot have such consistent %HP damage. None of the others listed have that besides Gnar and Shyv, the latter of which is lacking in CC and mobility.

You didn't even mention the second part, which is entirely true. All the champs, besides Gnar and Vi, who have %HP damage are either lacking in other forms or lacking in mobility.

State viable champs when arguing balance. If you mention Mundo and Gragas, you're doing it wrong.

TalamareMar 2, 20152 votes

She is a melee champion who always need to be in melee to do stuff

The meta favors here at the moment but once long range comes back she will fall out again

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20152 votes

Well she's a melee champion with two gap-closers, an ultimate with over 100% scaling that hits multiple enemies, and a shield. Maybe when ranged champs all have Kalista's passive, she'll fall out.

N3mO06Mar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She is a melee champion who always need to be in melee to do stuff

The meta favors here at the moment but once long range comes back she will fall out again

Melee with 2 closegap, one targetted and both of them are cc.....she doesn't have problem of range

Purse WaydeMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She is a melee champion who always need to be in melee to do stuff

The meta favors here at the moment but once long range comes back she will fall out again

yea no she doesnt have MASSIVE GAPLOSING TO GET INTO RANGE EASY AF. wtf is this comment

Knight SoIaire Mar 2, 20151 votes

well she can be peeled off

and i think the guy is right when meta shifts more to disengage vi will get rekt

The ChinMar 2, 20152 votes

don't nerf my vi pls ;(

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

I don't exactly think she needs a nerf, some other champs definitely need buffs to fight her. or instance: Blinds don't affect her. Sure, the basics miss, but the stacks and cone still go through. Not so much of a problem because only two champs have blinds, but still removes them as counters.

Bears Dont CareMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't exactly think she needs a nerf, some other champs definitely need buffs to fight her. or instance: Blinds don't affect her. Sure, the basics miss, but the stacks and cone still go through. Not so much of a problem because only two champs have blinds, but still removes them as counters.

Um...blinds never affect abilties so why mention it?

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

Both of those are on-hit abilities. Blinds and blocks and parries usually negate them. If she misses a punch, she shouldn't get a stack for concussive, since she didn't hit them.

Bears Dont CareMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Both of those are on-hit abilities. Blinds and blocks and parries usually negate them. If she misses a punch, she shouldn't get a stack for concussive, since she didn't hit them.

Only her E is an onhit ability. Her W is a basic attack ability. Q applies W but it does not apply on hit effects. Blinds don't negate on hit effects

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

Concussive should not apply to an attack that missed. You going to argue Nasus should be able to Q when he's blind, or Yi should still do his E's true damage even when blind?

Bears Dont CareMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Concussive should not apply to an attack that missed. You going to argue Nasus should be able to Q when he's blind, or Yi should still do his E's true damage even when blind?

No stupid, I am saying on htt effects don't get negated by blind.

Yandere CarryMar 2, 20151 votes

it isn't vi that's the problem. people just saw she got played in the LCS again and started crying 24/7.

Knight SoIaire Mar 2, 20152 votes

its a thematic fit

vi destroys your armor with power punches so its basicaly written here that she should deal similad damage to squishier and tankier guys

ofc in game its diferent, but her %dmg is there to kinda equalize her in trading with diferent levels of tankyness

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

But it doesn't equalize her, since her basics themselves and other abilities still hurt like hell.

IcyPepperMar 2, 20151 votes

That's why they're called bruisers :V Almost every bruiser hurts in some way.

Knight SoIaire Mar 2, 20151 votes

ofc in game its diferent

let me just leave it here

IcyPepperMar 2, 20152 votes

Keep in mind that it's a passive in her W that otherwise has no active. And she has to hit you three times to proc it, so there IS counterplay to it.

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

Well, having to hit you thee times could be countered by a blind, but it isn't because the stacks still go through. Maybe a stun, but you need to remember she has 4 teammates. You can't waste your single-target CC on her, so she can abuse that. Just as well, they shouldn't be making champions who have second passives instead of an ability. It should be an active ability, even if they keep it what it is and just give it a duration.

IcyPepperMar 2, 20151 votes

Well I was thinking 1v1, but for teamfights... well, to be fair she's often played as a bruiser tank, so her job is to disrupt the enemy team with her ult and Q.

But still, in the space of three autoattacks you should be doing something against Vi. Plenty of champions have %hp damage, and some don't have to work as hard for it (Gnar's range, any adc who builds Botrk on every single auto instead of three, Lee Sin's execute, etc).

Yandere CarryMar 2, 20151 votes

and to be fair, Vi is not good (in comparison to other tanks/off-tanks) in full 5 on 5 fights.

IcyPepperMar 2, 20151 votes

I find her best used as a disruption. In a teamfight, I like to Q and hit the frontline then immediately ult the carry (I typically build full tank, with hexdrinker) to force the enemy to either focus me or lose their carry.

When jungling, I hate using her ult as an execution if I can let the carries take the kill. The potential of her ult is wasted there.

MigYalleMar 2, 20151 votes

In my opinion I find her needed nerfs for the raw damage she puts out with just Triforce, When I play her I go juggernaut/tabi/tri/defense/defense/defense and can still destroy in a team fight, mid, and late game.

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

Right? Though there is one thing I think we could do to nerf her damage without actually nerfing her damage. Veigar-style. Turn her ultimate into a skillshot dash instead of targeted. (I don't know how that would work as far as going through walls, maybe make it so she has to do it toward an enemy champion in range, so she can't use it for escapes.) That would allow maybe Kallista, Zed, LeBlanc, Kat to dodge it. (No comment on how letting the super-mobile champs beat the only jungler who gets to fight them is not okay, I think all the infinite dashing and blinking needs to stop or be put on EVERYONE)

67chromeMar 2, 20151 votes

That is: Why does she have it?

It's a bruiser thing. If a champion's supposed to be tanky DPS, Riot can't force them to itemize for both tank and DPS.

Assassins have their mobility, marksman have range and mobility, mages have a ton of range - all of these champions have a mechanic that allows them to survive long enough to do their job. If you're survival mechanic to survive long enough to do your job is tankyness though, you either need a lot of tank for free ( Tryndamere preferably in a way that doesn't need scaling ) or a lot of damage for free ( Nasus )

Vi is sort of a happy medium between those with her %HPs damage and her HP shield, neither of which are exactly "can't die" or "300 AD steroid with 40 armor/mr pen and +500 damage every 3 seconds".

Her other moves all hit plenty hard even with only two damage items and the rest tank. Sure, you can say it's for fighting tanks. But shouldn't someone have to build Bork instead of just having a passive that nearly replaces it?

%HP damage isn't for fighting tanks.

It's still physical damage in Vi's case, and often physical or magical damage. You're simply going to take out a lower % of a tank's health than a squishie's health with %HP damage, which is exactly the same thing as just stacking AD or AP to deal more damage.

What %HP damage does do is bypass needing AD or AP to allow you to deal damage, as the scaling factor for the damage isn't tied to things you need to itemize for, but rather the natural growth and progression of your opponents.

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

It shouldn't bypass needing AD to deal damage. Then we get into a Nasus-type play. Being a medium between Tryn and Nasus doesn't make her weaker. And no, it's not a bruiser thing. Amumu has it because if he builds damage he doesn't help the team much. Vayne has it because she's squishy and so can be focused.

RogueWillMar 2, 20151 votes

The hp% is basically there to help her late game to make it from really bad to decent. She is a champ that if behind there isn't really much you can do. That said, her raw power could use some adjusting considering the jungle won't be changed soon. Perhaps less damage on her Q which is basically utility anyway.

Raja ChachkiMar 2, 20151 votes

I disagree, her damage REALLY falls off, but she is always useful because of her ult. It is so useful to lockdown any opponent, it will always keep her strong throughout the game.

RenailleMar 2, 20151 votes

Percent health damage is rito's easy way of trying to make melees viable.

Learn 2 SwimMar 2, 20151 votes

Vi has an overloaded kit with 3 things in each ability.

Oh wait thats Lee Sin.

Daedalus871Mar 2, 20151 votes

What do you want Vi to have instead?

Spacesuit SpiffMar 2, 20151 votes

That skill is basically "this champ can jungle and also do a lot of damage to dragon/baron". That's why she has it.

N3mO06Mar 2, 20151 votes

Vi damage and burst with rest of aa is somenthing wrong for a so tanky champ. And then also the armor reduce is also unfair for her base damage

Karn BishopMar 2, 20151 votes

Vi is not the problem, other junglers not being on her level is the issue here, think about it before the jungle changes neither Jarvan nor Vi were issues, people are banning them now because they are the main super viable junglers who could clear the new jungle like the old jungle.

The EcdysiastMar 2, 20151 votes

I actually made a thread about why the top picks are top picks. I feel the same way, but for every role. Every unused champ needs to be changed to fit the new everything.