Boards›Gameplay

Why do I feel like my bot lane matchups are decided by the supports 70% of the time?

Woook3r··7 votes·2,446 views

Its pretty unique to bot lane that I struggle more to get fed in this lane, but when I do get fed I just get hella hella fed cause theres 2-3 ppl in my lane for me to shred and feed of off.

The problem is, I usually dont feel like its within my power to get fed in bot lane as it is in mid lane where I can stomp fools based on my own skill.

USUALLY, agression in bot lane by the adc gets cock blocked by the support while your own support either goes nuts and wades thru cannon minions to deliver melee range auto attack harass OR just passively sits and does nothing to help you get an advantage.

Im all about teamwork guys, but its a little frustrating that I dont feel like my skill determines my lane MOST of the time. Sometimes their support is crappy enough that I can and do 2v1. Great. Sometimes I can even convince my nami to use her ulti aggressively. Wonderful. I love that.

But its not worth the really insane tilt I get when I have an aggressive morgana or sona or thresh to lane against and the most chicken shit support who seems utterly unwilling to even proved token resistance. LIke the kind of support just hoping for a free win. Playing not to loose. U know what kind of support I mean.

Thresh and morgana and blitz pay VERY VERY VERY VERY little for their aggression in lane and its really impossible to 2v1 lanes with them because you cant dodge their skill-shots with reflexes (except for morgs at long range). Its a bit grating that they have so much influence (boring influence, btw) on the lane when they arent even the ones getting fed.

It is really hard to climb as an adc. I have 10% higher win rate on my mid laners than my adc's and I MAIN adc. It is BY FAR my best role, but I dont carry because of the support situation. Sometimes, theres absolutely nothing I can do to win my lane. I can only hope to farm it up, but not because the enemy adc is any better than me. Its up to the support match up and I cant even pick that champion.

I mean, sometimes I do have great supports. And thats awesome, but I might trade them entirely for a more reliable and self dependent snowball coming out of lane (earlier blue trink would help a lot as well).

Im putting a poll at the bottom of this post for any adc mains out there.

58 Comments

Amelie8 votes

I'm honestly surprised if you consider yourself an ADC main and don't realize that it's the supports who control the lane. The ADC doesn't do anything by themselves unless they are far ahead in skill compared to their opponent.

So no, ADC is not going to carry by himself. Bad supports can bring you and your team down. Good supports can carry bad ADCs. This is not new.

Woook3r1 votes

"Why do I feel like my bot lane matchups are decided by the supports 70% of the time?" why do you think i dont realize this? its why im so salty all the fucking time.

Id get fed every game if there werent two supports in bot lane.

Errastas4 votes

No you wouldn't. You're the type of adc I regret ever getting paired with. As a support if I'm not going in or being aggressive, but playing defensive there is a reason.

It's because I've come to the conclusion that we won't come out on top if we try to trade, that securing a kill (depending on the matchup) will be next to impossible and the risk outweighs the gain, that I'd rather wait for a gank before I engage, or that from watching you lane I think the enemy ADCs skill > Your skill and I don't plan on throwing the game for some kills.

A passive farm lane is good, it doesn't always need to be a killfest.

Woook3r1 votes

yea. you are a silver 5 risk calculating machine. Every decision you make has been refined by hundreds of hours of coaching and cloud based analytics.

Errastas1 votes

Bronze 4 - to plat last season, I'll make the climb again when I decide to. You're just too good for some simple advice.

21028037DEL16 votes

He is correct in his analysis. Any Support above Gold will watch how the lane goes for the first two levels (usually, in Solo Queue) to determine what kind of ADC they are paired with. Is their ADC aggressive? Are they passive? Are they missing last hits? Are they getting in range of the enemy ADC and getting poked? Are they unable to dodge Thresh/Blitz/Naut hooks or other forms of CC?

If the Support comes to the conclusion that trading is a very big risk due to the lane match-up, the ADC's skill (or lack thereof), or the potential for a gank (enemy Teleports, global ults such as TF, no vision of the enemy jungler), then they will usually remain passive in lane, especially if they have chosen a particularly passive support (such as Soraka). If the Support does not trust their ADC to survive (or does not believe their ADC has trust in them to keep them alive), they will usually play passively, only venturing forward to try to protect the ADC while they farm.

Please, be aware of how your support is acting and follow their lead. If you are a low-level player (Bronze, Silver, even Gold), do what your Support is doing. A lot of ADCs, especially of low-rank, are afraid of farming under tower and immediately start to tilt because they feel they are losing the lane. This is wrong. If the enemy ADC and enemy Support have no kills, you are not losing the lane, you just don't have lane pressure and that's perfectly fine. Sometimes you have to farm for 20 minutes as Ezreal or Lucian under tower before you hit a good power spike. That's normal.

If your Support is acting aggressive, its best to follow suit, particularly if you have someone who can buff you (Karma, Janna) or peel for you (Alistar, Thresh, Bard). If you feel that your Support is acting too aggressive and is losing in trades, then ping them back and tell them to play more passive so you can farm.

What controls the lane is the communication between the ADC and the Support. Yes, most of this communication is non-verbal, especially in Solo Queue, but you need to be able to read your lane partner and match their style. If you are unsure, ask. Most Supports are happy to let you know how they approach a lane (which may change depending on the lane match-up).

Hope this helps! Support main, checking in. :)

Errastas1 votes

Perfectly said.

Woook3r1 votes

Ok. I dont live in gold elo. I live in bronze elo where sona can take full ap runes against draven alistare and consistently get hard hitting trades on the draven throughout the laning phase. Her power chord out trades one auto, but it does not outtrade a pulv into draven auto. Yet alistare plays on back foot and we get poked out by lvl 3-4. Please tell me how positions in unwarded bush against lvl 4 jinx + braum without burning black shield to get there. Its because my support is fucking up. I know! Ive played blitzcrank! Ive played viegar and gotten 80 ap by 12 min!

Most of the stuff you are saying does not apply to me. I use trading stance. I have 80 cs by 10 min assuming I dont get ganked/camped.

Im not perfect, but nami who sits in bush even though I am 3/1 with +15 ad +15 as and +20 crit chance on the enemy adc is holding me back. This was a thing that happened. I had to beg her at the fountain to just use the ult as soon as I started auto attacking. Took a lot of effort to convince her, but resulted in immediate double kill and a tower and a dragon. However, thats very strange in that my support was willing to cooperate. Fucking bizzare tbh. I thanked her and tried to friend her after.

Thats NOT the norm, but let me tell you why it worked. Its because the support matched the adc's agression and landed some cc. It would have failed to produce those results if the cc hadnt landed but at least we tried, eh? If I had followed my supports lead, we would have had a harder time winning the game because sivir got two triple kills after leaving lane. Imagine if we had let her farm as my support was planning on doing. Dont try and tell me nami was calculating all the fucking risks. We killed them in less than 2 seconds. There was no risk. That lane was completely ours, but nami had no clue.

Its much more normal for my support to passively allow morgana or blitz crank to position in the unwarded side brush or to "use" exhaust so that I can get a few more autos in on the support with three pots and flash. Sometimes Ill even get supports who push the lane instead of trying to get a ward in the tribush while I come back to lane. Thats NOT my fault.

For the most part, I think supports are doing more to stop losses than they are trying to win the damn game which is how you have to play the laning phases.

Errastas1 votes

It helps to see in the side bushes, but it isn't needed if it's too risky. Control of the side bush isn't going to determine who wins lane.

I get what your saying and sometimes a support/adc plays to passively. Bot lane isn't mid lane, can't be aggressive all the time. I punish aggressive ADCs all the time, who come into lane and try to cheese an easy kill. More ADCs need to respect who they're laning against and understand that if they have CC it can easily change the whole outcome of an engage.

Some of the things you are experiencing are because you are in bronze and it will change as you climb, but getting rid of your support is not the answer.

Woook3r1 votes

why isnt it a good idea for the support to follow the adc's lead?

chipndip13 votes

Your bot lane match-up feels like it's decided by your support's success most of the time because it LITERALLY IS decided by your support most of the time. That's why I switched from adc to support. There's too much meta stuff a support could not do that I need done that I'm not leaving up to someone else to do for me anymore. I'll do it myself and hopefully my adc can click the mouse at stuff like he's supposed to.

It seems like you're asking around for advice here. I can toss my two cents in if you sort of condense it down for me in a reply. Kind of a low Plat level player that spiraled out and is climbing back in. Hopefully I'll be back in Plat by tomorrow though. Regardless, if you want, I can give you advise where I can if you'd like it.

Woook3r1 votes

"It seems like you're asking around for advice here." Idk if id go that far. I def ask for tips and stuff sometimes, but I figure its pretty useless. The advice I would give an adc right now is never given anywhere I have found and I know its pretty good advice cause im winning more and I feel like I carry more. But ok next time I think of something ill ask you. Just to let you know something about me, I play adc cause its the hardest role, I main draven because he is the hardest adc, and prefer immobile adc's over everything else. I also have many opinions....btw, advice is spelled a-d-v-i-c-e.

U can also go look at my last two games on replay.gg if you want. I played ashe adc and nautilus jungle. The nautilus jungle was supposed to be a fun game with a friend who was tilted (bard) and a friend I knew could carry (fizz). The tilted bard also played in my ashe game (as leblanc), which was ranked.

Most of the pings are from me. Both games. I cant think of what else. Let me know if you watch. No questions for now.

EDIT: Just thought of a question. Someone on here said the adc should follow the support's lead. Everyone thought this was upvote worthy. Why its not a good idea for the support to follow the adc's lead?

EDIT: GL on promos tomorrow.

IcyPepper2 votes

Supports are impactful in the early game. That's kind of the point of pairing them up with the ADC, who's hypothetically supposed to have a weaker early game in exchange for a multiplicative or whatever mid/late game.

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be that way. Supports are impactful.

Woook3r1 votes

It shouldnt be that way because the majority of players dont like support and the support role makes q times 10x longer.

soulbatt2 votes

your very wrong supports are well loved its just people that have a fps mentality dont like them "cuz my kda" . adcs are by far the weakest role currently theyre the squishies targeted in team fights they have to be babysat and rarely make an impact past mid game. every other role holds its owns the whole game and a decent support will be your most important role endgame with the ability to safely instagate teamfights and/while keep the team alive. ive mained mid/adc/supp for awhile now and on a good game its not uncommon to see a supp with better kda and more damage to champions than an adc thanks to roaming and playmaking.

IcyPepper1 votes

And making them less impactful is going to fix that, how?

Oleandervine1 votes

Don't knock the support if you don't get kills. Bottom lane is unique in that if one person dies, the other one almost surely follows unless they pull off some crazy escapes; What this means is that the fight for survival in the bot lane is so much more intense than any other lane because both sides don't want to end up causing the opponent to get fed. On another note, supports also have some of the most diverse playstyles of the entire game. You have your tanky supports (Leona, Kench, Braum, Taric) who defend and offer loads of CC and typically are on the aggressive side. Then you have your buff supports (Soraka, Sona, Nami) who do not tend to be aggressive at all, and instead stick back and heal/buff the ADC. Then there's the poke supports (Lux, Karma, Annie, Lulu), who exist purely to be aggressive in bot lane and to either help kill or drive the opponents out of lane. What you need to learn is what kind of supports you work better with so that you can recommend something; Contrarily, you need to learn what ADCs pair with what types of supports so that you can play off their play styles. For instance, Jhin typically likes having a support who can stay back with him and snare opponents so he can chain snare for kills. This means Jhin is complimented by tanky supports and buff supports with strong snares, because his massive range does all the work for him. On the flip side, someone like Sivir does better with an aggressive support, since she's not got the greatest burst and needs the help. So learn your playstyle, learn their playstyle, and most of all, learn to adapt to the situation at hand instead of complaining that your playstyle and your support's are conflicting.

Woook3r1 votes

im not saying its the supports "fault" i dont get more kills. Im saying that the support meta is fucking toxic and I wish SR was a 4 man map.

LaserDeathBlade1 votes

ADCs probably wouldn't exist without Supports

The only reason you'd even consider solo lane ADC is probably because Lucian / Ezreal / Graves / Kindred are absolute cancer

The Deckowner1 votes

A good adc can carry a bad support A good support can not carry a bad adc Stop blaming the support you filthy adc mains

Reaper Soraka2 votes

good support can carry a bad adc.

The Deckowner1 votes

U can't save an adc who doesn't know how to cs. no matter how good you are as a support u can't help it.

Woook3r1 votes

this is 100% true. I played soraka and harassed the sivir to the point where she has 25 cs at 8 minutes. The enemy braum was too buys trying to deal with me to even adress my jhin adc.

yet at 10 minutes, jhin had 50 cs despite the fact that he was free farming that entire time. Sivir and braum were hiding under the fuckign tower, almost out of exp range. This tilted me beyond everything. How am I supposed to keep my sanity? 5 cs per minute. When I say they were hiding under tower, I am not exaggerating. Q max does dmg on soraka and I hit 80% of my skillshots as they came off cooldown in the first 5 min of the game.

You cant carry some people and thats why support is the least popular role. I 100% agree with you on that and I know its why q times suck this season. It takes matchmaking that long to find someone to play that role.

I actually like playing with good supports and playing support can be a lot of fun. You just focus on fighting the whole time and dont worry about your cs.. Its exciting. I even think viegar support might be the most overpowered thing this patch. But its not worth the tilt man..

Duo lanes are just abnormal. Theres not a compelling reason to keep duo lanes in the game. Supports can still be viable, you would just take them mid lane. In fact, moving to a 4 man summoners rift would probably result in sustainable buffs to a lot of supports like jana and sona. Didnt we just see alistare get nerfed in his solo lane because the heal in the duo lane is just too strong? Yea. We did see that. How many other solo supports have been nerfed because of their toxic duo lane shenanigans?

Woook3r1 votes

A good adc cant carry some lanes. Thresh item 3117. This is a fucking nightmare worse than darksouls. And thats according to sneaky who you should respect as an adc even if you dont respect me.

dim2a1 votes

I read this as personal like/dislike... but if you dislike two person lane, go to a one person lane, simple. A lot of people who enjoy botlane, enjoy it because it's 2v2 lane. If you don't like it, there are two other lanes for you to play in (and jungle, but it's team oriented most of the time too)

Woook3r1 votes

I actually sort of like being in a two person lane. Sort of. Its harder and I play adc for the challenge. But there are times when I feel like it isnt a challenge and more of an impossible task to 2v1 certain supports who dont really pay for their ability to zone you unless your support is cooperating.

Edit: how to lane against a thresh with mobi boots? Answer, miss some cs or play ezreal. The problem is that you cant really punish thresh for engaging. The only person capable of punishing him is his own adc who may not choose to go in with him. In addition to that, the supports have 3 potions so you cant kill them via attrition.

DrCyanide1 votes

You play safe. You freeze the minions near your tower, making his mobi boots less effective (he's not going to run up and flay you under your tower).

Honestly, those "chicken" supports probably realize that going aggressive in laning phase isn't how you're going to win that game, either because it's a bad matchup or you're too far behind for that.

Lycanoon1 votes

Supporting bot lane has become a challenge in itself. When you state you're going <this champ> or <that champ> and your team BANS THEM?...or the enemy bans both...you're left with what? What option do you have from there?

You have two choices... Use an aggressive champ... or Use a character that's good for pulling ganks.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

I just don't bother displaying my pick intent until after banning phase ends.

Still gives my team enough time to pick around me if they want but it prevents troll-bans.

Quepha1 votes

Because they are. The support completely exists to enable the adc, their entire purpose on the team is their benefit to early game laning before their damage and durability fall off relative to everyone who's getting more xp and gold.

Thank your supports.

Woook3r1 votes

I do thank my supports when they do something useful. That doesnt mean I enjoy the support meta and Id still rather not have the support role in the game at all.

Why does everyone act like supports are jesus christ himself? Its fucking obnoxious. They arent doing it out of selflesness. They do it because its meta and they want to win. Who gives a fuck if I get fed? You think I care if the support feeds me or feeds my enemy? No i dont. I just want to win and I dont give a shit about the support just like the support doesnt givea a shit about the adc and wants to win. Just the same.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I do thank my supports when they do something useful. That doesnt mean I enjoy the support meta and Id still rather not have the support role in the game at all.

Why does everyone act like supports are jesus christ himself? Its fucking obnoxious. They arent doing it out of selflesness. They do it because its meta and they want to win. Who gives a fuck if I get fed? You think I care if the support feeds me or feeds my enemy? No i dont. I just want to win and I dont give a shit about the support just like the support doesnt givea a shit about the adc and wants to win. Just the same.

Because support isn't as fun as other roles and that's bottlenecking queue times right now. Many of them actually are being selfless and playing an underappreciated, less entertaining, lower impact role just to get the queue moving.

Woook3r1 votes

I disagree. Support is a shit ton of fun. I spend the first 10 minutes of the game not giving a fuck spamming everything at the enemy laner and get to ignore last hitting minions (which is boring as fuck). The shitty part about support is that you are the only role more dependent on teamwork than the adc. You only carry by proxy. THAT sucks. THATS not fun, but it has to be that way because if supports carry then the game IS TOXIC like soraka and jana and thats not fun either.

"Many of them actually are being selfless and playing an underappreciated, less entertaining, lower impact role just to get the queue moving." Wow. Good for them. I guess since being a support is so unfun then all the little support mains saying how much they love support are just lying then. Fucking little narcissists and liars....wtf?

I guess we wouldn't be doing everyone a favor by getting rid of the most unfun, sacrificial, least entertaining, lowest impact role in the game. Wow. Great point my friend. You just proved me right. Noone likes supports. Lets just get rid of it. Its fucking toxic.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. Support is a shit ton of fun. I spend the first 10 minutes of the game not giving a fuck spamming everything at the enemy laner and get to ignore last hitting minions (which is boring as fuck). The shitty part about support is that you are the only role more dependent on teamwork than the adc. You only carry by proxy. THAT sucks. THATS not fun, but it has to be that way because if supports carry then the game IS TOXIC like soraka and jana and thats not fun either.

"Many of them actually are being selfless and playing an underappreciated, less entertaining, lower impact role just to get the queue moving." Wow. Good for them. I guess since being a support is so unfun then all the little support mains saying how much they love support are just lying then. Fucking little narcissists and liars....wtf?

I guess we wouldn't be doing everyone a favor by getting rid of the most unfun, sacrificial, least entertaining, lowest impact role in the game. Wow. Great point my friend. You just proved me right. Noone likes supports. Lets just get rid of it. Its fucking toxic.

How do you remove it? make the game into a 4v4? There's nothing else for a fifth man to do on a team and the support role opens up a lot of champion diversity by creating an opportunity for champs with power curves that don't favor the early game who would otherwise be dead weight to their team as they get bullied and feed snowball champs.

Some people like supports because there are good things about supporting, Riot needs to accentuate those aspects of the role and reduce the pain points. Maybe get more visibility to the stats as they sat at the end of lane phase instead of only the end of the game when the support's contribution during laning has become a drop in the bucket. Maybe create some way for a support to catch up to the rest of their team at least in experience so they can use their abilities. Maybe create more interesting support items that supports can buy on a light gold budget that helps their team.

Immortal spax1 votes

Lol, you want to make an entire game that became famous as a 5v5 moba because you can't play safe when the support roams, looool.

Then pick ezreal and go mid.

Woook3r1 votes

I just got camped by gragas jg....I couldnt stay safe under a tower with braum right beside me. Remind me why he was in my lane again?

Immortal spax1 votes

Its your jungler fault, he should counter gank.

Woook3r1 votes

when i say 2v1, i mean when my support cant or doesnt have the peel to protect me from anything.

Immortal spax1 votes

Well, then play in premade or play midlane, since every burst Adc can play there

Hige1 votes

I agree with the part that says that supports have different skill levels of aggression, that being said, this happens in pretty much every role.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

Think of this. Imagine a super dry farmfest or a unmanageable matchup because your champ got countered.

That's why sometimes having supports removes a lot of that monotony. Of course, not all supports are created equal, some have much more impact in lanes, while some just hides behind you and don't do much until you leave lane.

Woook3r1 votes

as an adc, there are no unmanageable matchups and even if there were you could exploit them as well.

There are unmanageable support matchups tho and only the support player can take advantage of them. Like leona vs draven, which is pure hell, and there are really fucked up support adc combos. Like morgana lucian or blitz lucian or thresh lucian. Cant stand behind minions. Cant stand in front of minions. Kalista ali kalista naut. Have fun in the air. Kalista thresh. Ungankable. Jhin morgana = best lane to invite ganks from your own jungler. Tru freelo right there. You really would have to be a potato to fuck that up.

Id argue thats a prime reason neither lucian nor kalista will never truly be UP unless completely gutted. Cause of the support synergy and thats why adcs are so fucking troublesome for the game developers. They are supposed to have weak early and mid games, but the support meta really fucks that up if you get the right match up cause your bot lane can become completely victimized.

PDE5 Inhib1 votes

Why do I feel like my bot lane matchups are decided by the supports 70% of the time?

Uh, because that's kind of the point?

ZephyrDrake1 votes

it's a good thing that the OP is not part of any balance discussions, every single suggestion he does is cringe worthy to say the least

Woook3r1 votes

At least I never though sated devorer was a good idea...

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

At least I never though sated devorer was a good idea...

and....? just the fact that you think you can just remove one player from the game and be done with it says how little you know about the game and how the game works

Woook3r1 votes

the fact that you arent even curious about this shows a lack of intelligence. I DONT know that this would drastically improve the game, but I do know that q times would be greatly improved and that means its at least worth considering.

I dont mean to offend you, you arent stupid, but the fact that you reject the idea out of hand is just too much.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

the fact that you arent even curious about this shows a lack of intelligence. I DONT know that this would drastically improve the game, but I do know that q times would be greatly improved and that means its at least worth considering.

I dont mean to offend you, you arent stupid, but the fact that you reject the idea out of hand is just too much.

oh yeah, let's make a game that is DESIGNED to be a 5v5 into a 4v4 surely nothing will go wrong. Reduced Q times? sorry but what? that is not enough, not even remotely close to make this "worth considering". You need way more than that for a change of this magnitude to be "worth considering". Hell you can just make changes to the matchmaking and it will lead to the exact same result! so why change the game from a 5v5 to a 4v4? oh right! because you cannot accept the fact that supports is what allows ADCs to reach their late game.

A bad support will lose you the game, a bad jungler will lose you the game, a bad Mid laner will lose you the game, a bad Top laner will lose you the game, a bad ADC will lose you the game. Just like a good of anything can carry you. This is not exclusive to the support role. What are you going to complain about next? "Junglers are too relevant in the early game! we should make this game into a 3v3!"?

Woook3r1 votes

hmm. well as far as "design" goes. Riot does not have a good history of designing what they intend. Look at yasuo. Supposed to be a bot laner. Nope. Hes mid. So the argument that the game is better as a 5v5 because it was designed to be 5v5 is invalid.

Q times wont go down if you remove a popular role like jg. Support is so unpopular that q times are super long. Thats the reason you remove it.

ElysMustache1 votes

So why don't you just find a support that is reliable and duo with them?

You can add my smurf, if you want, it is in Bronze 1 (Silver 1 on my main): AnotherMustache.

I'm not on it much, but I'll duo with ya when I am. Voice comms required.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Woook3r

I hate yasuo
Gameplay165 comments
171
votes
Riots Solution to Immobile Mages (make them more mobile)
Gameplay201 comments
168
votes
Give players who play 75% or more games as solo players a special banner to signify their ability.
Gameplay54 comments
116
votes
yep. we gonna see lucian nerfs before we see zed nerfs.
Gameplay115 comments
102
votes
Meddler: "We noticed that a lot of people were buying alacrity"
Gameplay111 comments
93
votes
so i cant qss zed ult now? is that what you are saying?
Gameplay85 comments
69
votes