Boards›Gameplay

New Veigar makes me so sad.

CupcakeTrap··37 votes·5,734 views

http://www.wallpaperup.com/uploads/wallpapers/2013/11/21/177825/09ba5abe6fc368653bfdb6fd0013461c.jpg BAHAHAHA! FOOLS! I shall deal a MODERATE AMOUNT OF POKE DAMAGE!

He's not even that bad. He's just…so dull. And whenever I stun someone, I feel like I just took advantage of somebody's mouse running out of batteries, or letting their kid brother play while they go get a soda.

I get the impression he was redesigned by somebody who'd never played Veigar. "Oh, hey, Veigar, he's that Champ that stacks his Q, right? I mean, the one who isn't Nasus. Okay, let's make him about stacking his Q all the time. Good job, team."

The funny—or damning—thing is: I always hated the edge-stun mechanic. I could see how it was antifun to play against, and I actually found it really annoying from Veigar's side, as well: it turned a "cage" ability into some kind of weird circle-shaped skillshot that centered around squinting at the monitor to make sure the hitboxes lined up just right, and trying not to wobble the mouse. But, as stupid as it was, it did create an interesting "kill or be killed" burstmage playstyle. They could have replaced it with so many things and kept that. But they replaced it with a stun that only stuns people if they fail to move a couple steps to either side after a bright flashy warning.

When a fight breaks out, it's just like, "okay, time to throw my stun somewhere, doesn't really matter where, and hope somebody doesn't notice it. Um. Maybe some of these skillshot Qs, too. And W? Sure, why not." There's not really any tension, or demand for good positioning: it's just "poke at them a while and maybe ult somebody if they're low. Ha. Low. Was that a short j…man, I can't even say it anymore." If he has a "burst playstyle", it's limited entirely to "when people are in range, you can push R to deal a bunch of damage!" Wow. Talk about new depth.

But I finally made myself play him again. And the experience was profoundly :\ I did at one point stun somebody (or rather, they stunned themselves), with no minions or tanks in the way, allowing me to do a DFG-less full rotation. It did kill them. But the main thought that occurred to me was that this person must have been Wood Tier. Other times, I pushed R and killed Katarina, and it felt like, well, like how some Rioters seemed to caricature the old Veigar: I didn't do anything, I didn't make any meaningful decisions, I just pushed a button and the enemy died.

And then at the end, it said, "Congratulations! You are LEVEL 1: INITIATE." And I was like, man, Riot. Ice cold. Ice. Cold.

70 Comments

Alljoy30 votes

Veigar? You mean the caster minion who spawns at the fountain instead of the Nexus?

Yeah, we should really get them to fix that bug, pleb should know his place. While we're at it, we shouldn't let them name minions anymore. People get so attached.

XLC6 votes

IS THAT A SHORT JOKE?!

Alljoy1 votes

What I said or what Veigar is?

Gotta be more specific.

amax1 votes

Its something Veigar says

A Superb Villain11 votes

http://i.imgur.com/kTauMsd.jpg

Hello I am Bird2 votes

http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDEzLzA3LzE4L2EwL2NyeWluZ3dhdGVyLjQ2NzZiLmdpZgpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/9fead436/c15/crying-waterfalls.gif

Alljoy1 votes

I'm sorry. Amumu

Núll15 votes

[deleted]

ArkenStorm2 votes

I feel repertoir or statikk would do a good job

8rRa2h05052 votes

They should compensate the delay by making it a full aoe slow -> stun ... Oh wait: Viktor . Besides, Veigar is supposed to be about skill; the delay is fine in principle, but maybe needs to be reduced. Kind of like with Heimerdinger .

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

true

this needs to be remade into a grandthread that will hit rioters right at their eyes

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

I think the biggest thing keeping him from feeling epic is how little his player's skill matters in the grand scheme of things. Like the OP said, he doesn't hit anyone with his abilities, they hit themselves, which makes Veigar seem okay due to the large amounts of people who've never seen him before not knowing that he's actually not another caster minion. The old stun was stronger than it should have been, but his meteor hinged completely on it working, which balanced the kit out. Now Veigar is nothing but a noob punisher, relying solely on their bad item builds (glass cannon full AP) and their inability to not be hit by massively delayed area skills. Riot's hack job basically made Veigar into a bad ADC, reliant on support to land his abilities but crippled by having to share experience, forcing him back into a solo lane.

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

I think the biggest thing keeping him from feeling epic is how little his player's skill matters in the grand scheme of things. Like the OP said, he doesn't hit anyone with his abilities, they hit themselves, which makes Veigar seem okay due to the large amounts of people who've never seen him before not knowing that he's actually not another caster minion. The old stun was stronger than it should have been, but his meteor hinged completely on it working, which balanced the kit out. Now Veigar is nothing but a noob punisher, relying solely on their bad item builds (glass cannon full AP) and their inability to not be hit by massively delayed area skills. Riot's hack job basically made Veigar into a bad ADC, reliant on support to land his abilities but crippled by having to share experience, forcing him back into a solo lane.

I kind of disagree with those statements. His E is still pretty impactful in team fights. Could he be better? Yes. Could he be worse? Yes! He's not as bad or as good as people say. He's painfully slightly below average.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

His team fight presence is not the reason people are angry about the hack job, its his dependability. Veigar used to be able to straddle the front line and use his E to catch somebody out, and since it was quick, he wouldn't always die as a result of it. Now if he tried that there's a whole half second the enemy has to murder him before even having to worry about being caged. Veigar can't make plays, he can only piggy back off his ally's plays due to his nonexistent solo presence. That's the reason why it infuriates a bunch of people when Riot's slated buffs turn out to only affect his teamfight presence, as that's never been the issue.

Rebonack12 votes

Y'know what would be neat?

If Riot really played out that whole 'Event Horizon' thing and made his stun field into an actual black-hole looking effect. Make it block all enemy line of sight through it. Make it so enemies trapped inside can't see outside of it. That would add quite a bit more utility (and not to mention flavor) to an otherwise uninspired skill.

CupcakeTrap4 votes

{quoted}

Y'know what would be neat?

If Riot really played out that whole 'Event Horizon' thing and made his stun field into an actual black-hole looking effect. Make it block all enemy line of sight through it. Make it so enemies trapped inside can't see outside of it. That would add quite a bit more utility (and not to mention flavor) to an otherwise uninspired skill.

That would be really cool, and thematic. If it's meant in part as an allusion to him being locked up by Noxians, maybe make it more of a "scary jail cell" ability. Not "oh, I'm inside this cage, better run around in circles and skillshot Veigar a bit".

amax1 votes

Thats where we draw "The Line"

SoberToaster4 votes

"I get the feel he was redesigned by someone who doesn't even play vieger"

exactly how I felt when they butchered my second favorite champ gangplank. after butchering my first favorite champ mord.

ArkenStorm1 votes

morde is after, not the other way around. remember that big bilgewater event? that was before "juggernauts"

SoberToaster1 votes

Im talking about the changes they made to him in the past two years or so.

8rRa2h05051 votes

Let's not forget Tryndamere

Jamaree2 votes

How is anything you said here different from old Veigar besides his Q now being a skillshot and his E not being instant?

CupcakeTrap14 votes

{quoted}

How is anything you said here different from old Veigar besides his Q now being a skillshot and his E not being instant?

I mean, that's kind of the thing, right? It's actually kind of remarkable how much the E nerf changed him. The E nerf got rid of his full rotation, except in cases where the enemy has an existential crisis in the middle of a teamfight and stares off into space for a few seconds, fixated upon the transience of life and humanity's place in the cosmos.

With old Veigar, fights were very high tension. You had to decide: am I going to save my stun to help my team, or am I going to go all out and try to 100-0 the enemy squishy? If I catch someone out, do I throw everything to make sure I kill them, or do I throw just my DFG+W+Q, trying to save my R for a quick Q+R combo, aiming for two kills at the risk of getting none? If Zed suddenly leaps in my face, am I going to be able to throw my stun just right to hit him with the edge, or will I get my face clawed off?

New Veigar is…well, none of that. New Veigar is, "oh, hmm, there are enemies, I guess I should throw damage at them. Doesn't really matter who I throw it at. Just sort of lob some skillshots at whoever's nearby."

I suppose, in summary, old Veigar had this "all or nothing" aspect. You might win the fight for your team, or contribute absolutely nothing. New Veigar is, I guess you could say, much more reliable. He'll do some amount of damage to the enemy. He's not going to decide the course of the fight. He's a mage who has some spells that do some damage. He feels pretty generic.

Alljoy9 votes

The enemy has an existential crisis in the middle of a teamfight and stares off into space for a few seconds, fixated upon the transience of life and humanity's place in the cosmos.

Our playerbase is capable of this?

It's more likely they had to dust off some Cheetos from the velcro-like growth on their necks.

CupcakeTrap10 votes

{quoted}

Our playerbase is capable of this?

It's more likely they had to dust off some cheetos from the velcro-like growth on their necks.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

"Are we not…ourselves…cheeto dust upon the unkempt neck of time? Or perhaps we are the stubble. The moment of eating the cheeto, that moment is gone. We cling to the neon orange dust of memory, artificially flavored, insubstantial. We cling because we—oh, man, Veigar killed me again."

Alljoy3 votes

That sounds far too coherent. I'd imagined it to be a thousand yard glare, similar to the ones displayed mid-constipation accompanied by vague grunting.

air tiger1 votes

fucking died - velcro like growth? oh gawd

Tworie2 votes

The Veigar changes were completely necessary since he had little counter-play late game because he could just instantly stun and burst everybody to death. I know 'cause I was the one doing the stunning :3c Shit was so fun and unbalanced.

Hard Penetrator7 votes

Lets take your favourite champ and take his most useful skill while making his kit unreliable. Would it feel good?

Im sure you would love it.

Tworie1 votes

Duuuuude I played Veigar a lot kayyyyyyyyyyyyy He NEEDED a nerf I kept saying that every time I played him 'cause I'd just get lichbanes + nashors and get 200 stacks of AP by just bursting people down with just my Q and autos

Sasogwa4 votes

{quoted}

Duuuuude I played Veigar a lot kayyyyyyyyyyyyy He NEEDED a nerf I kept saying that every time I played him 'cause I'd just get lichbanes + nashors and get 200 stacks of AP by just bursting people down with just my Q and autos

Not sure if trolling

If not, at what elo were you playing? Cause you know, Veigar was already average at high elo. If on top of that, you took a weakish build... (and the fact Q farms kinda faster now actually would buff a nashor's/lichbane build... tho it's still bad.

Hard Penetrator8 votes

Look, I don't want to be mean, but I don't think you understand why Veigar is bad against good players.

At least old Veigar had clear strong and weak points. New one isn't really special in his strong points and is way easier to kill. Only welcome change was dash stopping walls. But with so many blinks it isn't even that big deal.

The Bearded Bard2 votes

I disagree. I find new Veigar infinitely more fun to play than the targetted damage and instastun machine he used to be. New Veigar is more fun in my opinion and much stronger, just has a different playstyle.

lB2kGRlc8y2 votes

Yea.... so how do you land your W and E? The new playstyle you're talking about is a lane gimp with no trading potential completely reliant on the enemy to slip up tremendously. Is it really that fun to watch enemies who are choking on applesauce run into abilities that give you a year's warning before taking effect?

The Bearded Bard2 votes

The same way I land other skillshots, with skill. The stun is not nearly as large of a delay as you people make it out to be. It's a .5 second delay. When running away, simply put it slightly ahead of you, then once it appears you should be inside of it. When chasing, put it slightly ahead of them and boom, they're inside it. Stop trying to land it directly on them and start using it to actually cage people. You won't get the stun every time, but you should cage them most of the time. As for the W, simply land a cage and you'll land a W. Short of that, when being chased I land it pretty often, again you just have to lead them. Yes, it has a delay, use that to your advantage when they're chasing you.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

There's a large difference between a 0.5 sec delay that covers a sliver of space in comparison to a 200 unit filled area. Champs like Xerath who have the latter can center the ability on a person and it has a much higher chance of hitting even with the same delay. Veigar's fence can be sidestepped within a fraction of the time it takes to appear, so it basically relies on the enemy to not see it coming. Pre placing is necessary I agree, but at the end of the day it still requires the enemy to fuck up to work.

8rRa2h05051 votes

Any half decent Karthus shouldn't have a problem with a half second delay, and any half decent Veigar shouldn't have a problem landing an edge. I am however concerned about the raw gimping of stats. Veigar has unlimited potential: that shouldn't mean it takes an hour to get respectable damage.

AzureInTheDark2 votes

I'm absolutely fine with the new Veigar, but if there was a single change I'd bring back, it would be returning the AP Ratio for Veigar's ultimate back to 120%. That's pretty much it.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

This sort of complacency is what makes people forget Veigar has a glaring hole in him. Most people who think he's "fine" either play him against morons to get good scores, or just enjoy the fact that he can't harm intelligent players.

Meep Man2 votes

I'm kind of confused. Veigar is a lot like other Mages except he has his Q stacking and his E. That's his identity. Infinite AP power. Is this complaining on his theme or power level? Or play style? All? I personally enjoy his OVERALL play style and his power level is good. His theme is pretty well developed (at least in the FB skin, which is funny). Maybe this is a personal preference thing. It's funny actually. Old Veigar was known for the amount of guaranteed burst he had when he got in range. New Veigar is known for... usually the opposite.

I also disagree with the team fight talk. I always go into a fight looking to kill one target in particular.

EDIT: I like the idea of a black hole for Event Horizon. That would be cool.

Robert Smith1 votes

I play him more like a poke mage. The cage works when others have AOE spells like swain or ammu

A Superb Villain6 votes

{quoted}

I play him more like a poke mage. The cage works when others have AOE spells like swain or ammu

Except that's not Veigar. That's Ziggs or Xerath or Lux or Zyra or Velkoz. Veigar is THE burst mage; to make up for his lack of utility outside a delayed stun he has unparalleled burst. He was an immobile AP carry that had to carefully pick and choose his battles, but before at least he could pick his battles. Now he is utterly reliant on his teammates to accomplish anything short of enemies making serious errors in judgement.

Veigar is not a poke mage, he was never meant to be a poke mage, hence the laughable range on his abilities; Veigar put himself at risk to unleash his full rotation, which is why the stun was so critical in getting him in and out alive. That was Veigar's identity, a double-edge sword that could make anyone not a tank shit their pants the minute he walks into their vision.

CatAndBookTails2 votes

If he is THE burst mage, then why are his ratios, basedamages so lackluster and is he so unreliable? give me exactly one reason to not take an assassin or aoe long range mage to replace him.

Axis the Dragon5 votes

Warning: Wall of text incoming!

(Note that most of this is my own personal opinion, and I'm not trying to speak on behalf of all Veigar players. Just me.)

Because he was binary. Veigar was a hit-or-miss, 100-0 or bust kind of Champion. His burst, if not blocked (Banshee/Zhonya's) or dodged, would 100% kill a squishy outright. His base damages and ratios were then nerfed a couple of times to try to move away from a "kill or be killed" mentality (and it was somewhat warranted, considering his instant stun). They did the same with old Ryze (back in the old days of Zhonya's Ring).

Riot then realized that Veigar had a problem. Other Champions, like the assassins you mentioned, or others with more reliable all-in burst (Leblanc, Zed, Talon, etc) did the same damage without the same risk. Veigar had to legit sit in front of his enemies to unload his burst - assassins, on the other hand, had some ways to either a) escape or b) keep getting kills. If his skills are on Cooldown, Veigar just kind of... waddles around the fight, trying not to die.

So they tried to change his identity as a more support-style mage that still had large amounts of burst. The difference between him and assassins is now palpable - he has zoning power in teamfights with his E. Just by existing, it's a huge AOE CC threat. A similar Champion would be Orianna, I guess, or Zyra - dancing around the edges of the teamfight, throwing down spells whenever necessary, trying to lock down multiple targets with their CC.

Can you see the problem, here? Yes, that's exactly it - Zyra and Orianna's CCs are unstoppabble if they hit you with it - not to mention that they have a crapton of either a) low cooldown poke or b) good sustained damage, in combination with secondary CC, to help them kite. What does Veigar have, other than E? A low CD Q, sure, but it only hits up to 2 people, and god forbid any bruiser or tank will let Veigar come close to their carries. A strong W, but that's a lot better as a poke/zone tool than for raw damage if you have no CC (and his is pretty easy to escape from as long as you have any sort of movement spell - yeah, you get stunned, but if you have Merc treads, there's not way Veig reaches you before you're unstunned). All that's left is a super-powered ultimate that does a lot of damage to mages.

So what's his identity? He's a poke mage, with good threat, zone control, very strong but situational CC... but most of his damage is low range, and single target?

This playstyle is not what original Veigar players fell in love with. What they liked about Veigar was this tiny, evil-tryhard that seemed harmless at first glance, but if you underestimate him and let him bide his time, building up his power, he would - pardon the vulgarity - fuck your shit up. A small, innocuous little dude that somehow or other, wields the unfathomable powers of the cosmos, and would reign supreme as the burst mage. He doesn't need anybody to hold his hand, to help him dish out damage - no, he can do all of that himself, and then some.

Now, he can't do anything particularly meaningful alone. He can zone with W or E, but nearly every single non-tank (and even some of the tanks, really...) released so far - other than, like, Vel'Koz - has some sort of mobility that will help them just dodge everything Veigar can dish out.

Veigar doesn't feel powerful anymore. His ultimate is named after the goddamn Big Bang, but it's a piddly little blue ball of energy that does raw, single target damage - no AOE, no utility, no CC, just raw damage - but with just 1 MR item, if we consider that he's not behind his enemy laner, it won't do more than half HP, if that. At this point, he just feel like he's there to help others. And that doesn't feel like a Master of Evil to me. He doesn't feel like the King of the Cosmos. Not anymore.

8rRa2h05051 votes

Event Horizon should induce a binary slow/speed effect, coupled with a pull and stun.

Moving away from the center slows enemies, while everything moving towards the center speeds up; this effect becomes more pronounced the closer you get to the center and the longer you stay in the area.

Additionally, enemies are slowly pulled towards the center of the effect, the rate of the pull increases with time and as you approach the center; it can be resisted/offset by your movespeed.

Enemies that reach the center are stunned.

The idea is primarily to "suck" all of your enemies into the middle.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

This idea's been tossed around before, but nothing's really come out of it - the main issue being that it's too similar to Viktor's Gravity Field. =/

8rRa2h05051 votes

I'm aware: I said as much myself further up the thread. This idea is more of an AOE pull, and maybe it should just be that instead, or that with a stun at the end/center. Even better if it pulls particles (e.g. spells, ranged attacks, etc.) as well. But that's only because I expect an accurate rendering of black hole physics to be rather much for even this sophisticated of a game.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

Thank you so much for wording my sentiments in such a calm manner. Every veigar post I make seems to only get the attention of the little gremlins that think he's "okay" because they stomped a gaggle of noobs with him once but have no real argument when it comes how terribly veigar is when dealing with competent players.

5.4 ripped my soul out, and every shitty little bandage buff Riot makes dances around his real issues like Riot's proud of how badly they fucked him.

A Superb Villain6 votes

Because fucking "compensation."

We feel Veigar loses a lot of his threat by removing DFG, so to help keep the Master of Evil a master of damage we are removing .2 AP scaling from his ultimate ratio because fuck you, Veigar.

Audiomancy2 votes

{quoted}

If he is THE burst mage, then why are his ratios, basedamages so lackluster and is he so unreliable? give me exactly one reason to not take an assassin or aoe long range mage to replace him.

Welcome to Riot's rework team.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by CupcakeTrap

Riot should reword its "I Agree" leaver prompts.
[ARCHIVED] Miscellaneous129 comments
373
votes
Retcons suck: I'm not that far from wishing I'd never gotten involved in League's lore.
Story, Art, & Sound282 comments
249
votes
Link this thread next time Narrative makes a massive change with no prior community input.
Story, Art, & Sound60 comments
152
votes
Let's talk about Veigar's counterplay.
Gameplay147 comments
129
votes
"We just can't find a way to tell stories with this whole League thing in the way." Well, WE did.
Community Creations101 comments
104
votes
PSA to Kalista players: My hatred for you is without limit.
Gameplay118 comments
98
votes