Even if you're not a jungle main, you should be speaking out about the jungle changes (camp timers)

Jesus is Savior·Oct 31, 2016·6 votes·914 views

Increasing jungle camp respawn timers by 50 seconds is going to do 2 things:

The enemy jungler is going to be in your lane more.
Your jungler is going to be in your lane more.

To the point where he's basically a 2nd support. So the question is, do you really want the enemy jungler in your lane? Do you really wanr YOUR jungler in your lane? Even if you're Heimerdinger and auto-pushing the lane, and even if your jungler is a nice guy and doesn't tax, he's still just gonna sit there spamming /dance and leeching exp because he has nothing else to do.

And it's going to be even worse if he gets counterjungled. He could be forced to spend an entire 2 minutes or more in your lane. He can't just "go farm" because there's nothing to farm. And he needs exp or he'll just insta-die.

I'm not sure why all the non-junglers downvote threads about this issue. It's going to affect you too. And it's really going to suck for you. More-so for you than for the actual junglers (because I bet a lot of them won't "leech" they will simply tax).

50 Comments

WeatheredOct 31, 20164 votes

Well would you look at that I guess people will be taking Herald now...

I've tested on the PBE. It honestly does not make a huge impact. The major thing you may notice is a lot more aggressive counter jungling and a need for more map awareness.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well would you look at that I guess people will be taking Herald now...

I've tested on the PBE. It honestly does not make a huge impact. The major thing you may notice is a lot more aggressive counter jungling and a need for more map awareness.

Did you test it with fast clear junglers? On people like Eve, Master Yi, Udyr, etc, anyone who has a fast jungle clear, this will be HUGE.

On people like Warwick, Rammus, etc, who clear the jungle slow, it will be a non-issue.

If you head over to some "Yi main" groups they're basically saying it's a death sentence and the champion is dead.

WeatheredOct 31, 20163 votes

I mainly tested on Kha'Zix, who can do a full clear before the 3:30 mark. His clears become even faster with upgraded Q. I did find myself with more time roaming, but I spent that time deep warding and setting up ganks.

ModWulf HelhammerOct 31, 20162 votes

Ignoring that the camps take longer and more effort to take (on average). They want to stop the idea of farming junglers. Making them have to gank more is a solution to that

PermabannedGarenOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ignoring that the camps take longer and more effort to take (on average). They want to stop the idea of farming junglers. Making them have to gank more is a solution to that

So does that mean that Master Yi and Shyvana should just go kill themselves?

Because there's a reason those champions are farming junglers instead of ganking junglers.

ModWulf HelhammerOct 31, 20161 votes

Situations like those would be handled as they occurred

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Situations like those would be handled as they occurred

This is a very large pool of junglers.

Also I saw a fucking YASUO clear the new jungle with no pots. Pretty sure it's not actually as hard as you think it is.

(Also: reminder that "ganking" isn't always possible depending on vision, where the enemy is and how the lanes are pushed, etc, so even if I'm a ganking jungler I might just come tax/dance in your lane after my clear)

JorenciceOct 31, 20162 votes

You could also just help them push lane and kill the turret...

Or just flat out zone out the other laner.

Id actually MUCH rather have more jungle assistance than less.

PermabannedGarenOct 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Situations like those would be handled as they occurred

Yeah because they really helped junglers who relied on devourer out in a timely fashion after its removal.

I mean, Yi is in a semi-decent state right now because they FINALLY fixed his bugs.

And how will they be handled? Are they gonna ramp up Yi's damage, even though his DPS is already the best in the game? Are they going to cut his mana costs into nothing so he can lane?

Are they gonna make his Q an AOE stun?

This change is probably going to destroy Yi, and Riot will probably not do anything about it lol.

DehitayOct 31, 20161 votes

What's the current respawn timer? I hadn't heard about this.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What's the current respawn timer? I hadn't heard about this.

Camp respawn timers increased to 150 seconds from 100 seconds.

Also of note: this is like the 3rd season in a row where they've done this. Every single season the timers get longer and longer.

WoonStruckOct 31, 20161 votes

The jungle timers used to be even longer in seasons 1 and 2... Jungling was awesome back then.

Don't know what you're talking about...lol

They shortened it, realized it led to afk farming/speed clearers only being viable. Now they're moving it back. This will improve jungle diversity, make counter-jungling a viable tactic on jungle champs that aren't broken, and enable control junglers to have a larger impact.

Not only that, but WW, Malph, Rammus, etc will actually be decent again in the jungle.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The jungle timers used to be even longer in seasons 1 and 2... Jungling was awesome back then.

Don't know what you're talking about...lol

They shortened it, realized it led to afk farming/speed clearers only being viable. Now they're moving it back. This will improve jungle diversity, make counter-jungling a viable tactic on jungle champs that aren't broken, and enable control junglers to have a larger impact.

Season 4 -> Season 5 - timers increased Season 5 -> Season 6 - timers increased Season 6 -> Season 7 - timers increased again

And the reason counter-jungling isn't viable anymore is NOT because of jungle timers. It's because of the increased exp you get for being behind. I think it was season 4? I could permanently put the enemy jungler 5 levels behind as Nunu and then kill him with a full-tank build.

WoonStruckOct 31, 20161 votes

Season 1 -> season 2 - timers reduced by 33%

Season 2 -> season 3 - timers reduced by another 10 seconds

And yeah, it is because of jungle timers. The more camps respawn, the bigger hassle it is to keep up on counterjungling (more time out of your jungle). Each camp you steal has much less effect because they are worth less and respawn more often currently.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Season 2 -> season 3 - timers reduced by 50%

Season 3 -> season 4 - timers reduced by 33%

And yeah, it is because of jungle timers. The more camps respawn, the bigger hassle it is to keep up on counterjungling (more time out of your jungle). Each camp you steal has much less effect because they are worth less and respawn more often.

No, they have less effect because lower level junglers get "catch up" exp. What this does is make the enemy jungler's future camps "worth more" to compensate for the ones you already took.

Counterjungling was fine before that change was added.

AttackOnTeemosOct 31, 20161 votes

Only thing it means is people need to actually do this thing called "Warding" More in jungles.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Only thing it means is people need to actually do this thing called "Warding" More in jungles.

Okay so lets say you get counterjungled.

You go buy some wards. You walk up to the bush to ward it. You die. The enemy jungler was waiting for you in the bush.

What now?

AttackOnTeemosOct 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RnUBnNEd,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-10-31T14:36:07.679+0000)

Okay so lets say you get counterjungled.

You go buy some wards. You walk up to the bush to ward it. You die. The enemy jungler was waiting for you in the bush.

What now?

Studies show you don't have to stand or walk INTO a bush to plant a ward. The logic "bush checking" plays a role there. Idk what kinda junglar can instantly kill someone walking UP to a bush but I need to start playing it. Out of all the junglars, you as an eve player should know this.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Studies show you don't have to stand or walk INTO a bush to plant a ward. The logic "bush checking" plays a role there. Idk what kinda junglar can instantly kill someone walking UP to a bush but I need to start playing it. Out of all the junglars, you as an eve player should know this.

I can name one off the top of my head. Rengar can gapclose on you from warding range and insta-delete you.

I'm sure there are others.

AttackOnTeemosOct 31, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RnUBnNEd,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T17:43:07.267+0000)

I can name one off the top of my head. can gapclose on you from warding range and insta-delete you.

I'm sure there are others.

I keep forgetting Rengar can appear in your jungle before your team does. Damn...I always forget that passive he magically starts in your side.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I keep forgetting Rengar can appear in your jungle before your team does. Damn...I always forget that passive he magically starts in your side.

I cant make my team ward my jungle for me.

And they usually wont, because they need to ward their lanes. So yes, he actually CAN get into my jungle without being seen, before I can ward it.

AttackOnTeemosOct 31, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RnUBnNEd,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T17:55:39.725+0000)

I cant make my team ward my jungle for me.

And they usually wont, because they need to ward their lanes. So yes, he actually CAN get into my jungle without being seen, before I can ward it.

Okay well that's a TEAM issue not a champion issue. Your team doesn't want to HELP you, how's is that a champion fault?

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Okay well that's a TEAM issue not a champion issue. Your team doesn't want to HELP you, how's is that a champion fault?

Okay so the jungle changes, according to you, are great in LCS where people are 5v5 on voice comms and have practiced together, and will ward and help their allies when their allies get behind and fucked by the new counterjunging system.

How is it good for solo queue, where that won't happen? Do I lose one monster and then just AFK in the base because I can't do anything? Is that what you suggest?

Can't even grab item 3363 until level 9, so grabbing that and safely kill one camp every 90 seconds isn't an option either.

AttackOnTeemosOct 31, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RnUBnNEd,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T18:03:05.041+0000)

Okay so the jungle changes, according to you, are great in LCS where people are 5v5 on voice comms and have practiced together, and will ward and help their allies when their allies get behind and fucked by the new counterjunging system.

How is it good for solo queue, where that won't happen? Do I lose one monster and then just AFK in the base because I can't do anything? Is that what you suggest?

Can't even grab until level 9, so grabbing that and safely kill one camp every 90 seconds isn't an option either.

I'm still trying to question how you got that rank without getting boosted.

Perhaps instead of Exhaust on your jungle eve try maybe "flash". If you getting counter jungled that damn bad then smart thing to do would be to A) Tell your teammates to be ready.

I've been counter jungled before, but I was smart enough to figure he may be still in my jungle and do a little exploring into his. even better, I TELL my teammates that I need someone to just check this one spot for me. 9/10 if they want to win the game they will do it.

If you can't handle the jungle, or place one ward down then just by how bad you make it sound you should just STOP playing that role period.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps instead of Exhaust on your jungle eve try maybe "flash".

Well: 1) The enemy has flash too, and can just flash-chase me; 2) Long as fuck cooldown. He can just stay and kill me when I come back, if I didn't die anyway.

Also using the Rengar example: he has a snare. Flash isn't even gonna work on him.

AttackOnTeemosOct 31, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RnUBnNEd,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T18:18:31.073+0000)

Well: 1) The enemy has flash too, and can just flash-chase me; 2) Long as fuck cooldown. He can just stay and kill me when I come back, if I didn't die anyway.

Also using the example: he has a snare. Flash isn't even gonna work on him.

If he that damn good why the hell are you not playing him? He can't snare someone unless his gauge is full., If he is in your jungle and you flash away you still have enough time for your teammates to come.

As said for the last time, this is a team issue not a champion issue. Maybe if you spent less time playing eve and other junglars you would know rengar can be played against.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If he that damn good why the hell are you not playing him? He can't snare someone unless his gauge is full., If he is in your jungle and you flash away you still have enough time for your teammates to come.

As said for the last time, this is a team issue not a champion issue. Maybe if you spent less time playing eve and other junglars you would know rengar can be played against.

Rengar was an EXAMPLE

Fed Elise can do it too.

Fed LeeSin , while he doesn't have "CC," can reliably Q Q ult you from the bush, and you will die. If you flash, he will just follow you.

Fed Warwick can probably do it too, as long as he presses Q beforehand as you walk into the bush.

I could go on.

AttackOnTeemosOct 31, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RnUBnNEd,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T18:38:17.752+0000)

Rengar was an EXAMPLE

Fed can do it too.

Fed , while he doesn't have "CC," can reliably Q Q ult you from the bush, and you will die. If you flash, he will just follow you.

Fed can probably do it too, as long as he presses Q beforehand as you walk into the bush.

I could go on.

Keyword is "FED"

Now what I love more about all these champions you keep naming but yet you keep avoiding the same question and issue I bring up.

1)Where is your team? 2) Why can't YOU (Y-O-U) Play any of them? I tell people all day you get stuck playing the same champion every game you won't learn anything new.

ABlueQuakerOct 31, 20161 votes

tbh I'm at the point where I just accept that Riot is gonna do something dumb and I'm just gonna have to learn the game again. There's no talking sense into them.

Snowball4uOct 31, 20161 votes

Ill tell my jungler to fuck off

and more mejais stacks from enemy jungler c:

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ill tell my jungler to fuck off

and more mejais stacks from enemy jungler c:

I'm sure many people will tell me to fuck off. I'll just mute them. :)

PPPPPPPPPPPP270Oct 31, 20161 votes

If you looked at Stonewall's jungle clear videos you can see a large number of junglers able to do a full clear just fine. Some junglers got faster on raptors especially Amumu who can kill the entire camp in five seconds level 3.

Graves can still cheat the jungle but he's getting nerfed later.

Junglers early game can have a huge level lead and be level 3 by clearing Krugs and red buff. Though krugs early is going to be rough but if you can do it then you have a really early gank that can happen.

Still the most notable jungle nerf is the removal of strength of the ages. This hurts junglers like Olaf heavily since the replacement applies to hard CC.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If you looked at Stonewall's jungle clear videos you can see a large number of junglers able to do a full clear just fine. Some junglers got faster on raptors especially Amumu who can kill the entire camp in five seconds level 3.

Graves can still cheat the jungle but he's getting nerfed later.

Junglers early game can have a huge level lead and be level 3 by clearing Krugs and red buff. Though krugs early is going to be rough but if you can do it then you have a really early gank that can happen.

Still the most notable jungle nerf is the removal of strength of the ages. This hurts junglers like Olaf heavily since the replacement applies to hard CC.

Yes, they clear fine. And then have nothing to do for 60-90 seconds.

And while exp was buffed on camps, iirc GOLD was not.

WoonStruckOct 31, 20161 votes

A lot of Olafs went Fervor anyway; the only thing you got from Resolve was 300 HP.

Fervor's better on Olaf now since it effectively applies to his axes and E.

Linna ExcelOct 31, 20161 votes

My biggest concerns are what are the power clear champs going to do and what are the champs who can't really gank pre-6 do?

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RnUBnNEd,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-10-31T18:01:35.933+0000)

My biggest concerns are what are the power clear champs going to do and what are the champs who can't really gank pre-6 do?

Tax, get reported, and banned.

ModWulf HelhammerOct 31, 20162 votes

Reports =/= immediate ban.

You have to actually do something wrong to get punished

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Reports =/= immediate ban.

You have to actually do something wrong to get punished

I was practicing champs I was bad at on my smurf, and I got permabanned (first offense, no prior warnings) because I had "an alarming number of reports."

They don't have the tools to check and see if you were actually griefing or not. They will just read the comments, assume you were, and ban you.

(The ban was overturned a year later when I protested it again)

ModWulf HelhammerOct 31, 20161 votes

When was this
Was this ranked
how bad and how consistent was this

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

When was this

Was this ranked

how bad and how consistent was this

1 year ago
Yes
Didn't even get through my placement matches before they banned me (I was trying Nunu in the new jungle/new dragons - turns out he was still a shit champion).

Also the fact that it was ranked doesn't matter. Riot has stated that you can't be banned for being bad at the game. This includes ranked. If this was against the rules you could just op.gg everyone in your game and report everyone who picks a champ they have a bad W/L on.

ModWulf HelhammerOct 31, 20161 votes

You can be banned for feeding, and reports on such are weighted more in ranked. If you had several games where you did really bad on in normals, it probably wouldn't be much. In ranked, it could possibly earn you something. Be that as it may, it is odd that it went straight to permaban. I would've thought at least a 14 day first.

How many games exactly are we talking about, and what was your score/game contribution?

WoonStruckOct 31, 20161 votes

His KDA is 1.36 over 700+ games. From the jungle.

I'm almost willing to bet he intentionally feeds some games.

Either that, or he really was boosted.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

His KDA is 1.36 over 700+ games. From the jungle.

I'm almost willing to bet he intentionally feeds some games.

Either that, or he really was boosted.

This account wasn't banned.
KDA doesn't win games.
Please stop harassing me.

WoonStruckOct 31, 20161 votes

You won't get banned unless its extremely blatant and you state that you'll feed in chat.
KDA does show that you A) don't jungle correctly B) Don't do things with your team. Both go hand-in-hand, though.
I'm not harassing you. Harassing is a repeated unwanted action. You're giving opinions on a forum, which automatically excludes this from harassment since I am giving you what you want: a response. Better yet, its a legitimate argument. If you don't want responses, don't post on the forum.

Jesus is SaviorNov 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You won't get banned unless its extremely blatant and you state that you'll feed in chat.

KDA does show that you A) don't jungle correctly B) Don't do things with your team. Both go hand-in-hand, though.

I'm not harassing you. Harassing is a repeated unwanted action. You're giving opinions on a forum, which automatically excludes this from harassment since I am giving you what you want: a response. Better yet, its a legitimate argument. If you don't want responses, don't post on the forum.

Accusing me of being boosted and/or intentionally feeding is against the forum rules. I've quite literally been banned on the gameplay boards for less than that in the past. Riot is more harsh on their boards than they are in game (outside of GD, which has special more relaxed rules).

And my KDA doesn't reflect anything. I'm a tank with soft cc. I can do tons of work, and then if my team can't follow up and do enough damage to secure the kill, I don't get an assist. And since I'm Nunu I WILL get every dragon, even if I have to die to do it. That's my job. And I got a lot of them.

Jesus is SaviorOct 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You can be banned for feeding, and reports on such are weighted more in ranked. If you had several games where you did really bad on in normals, it probably wouldn't be much. In ranked, it could possibly earn you something. Be that as it may, it is odd that it went straight to permaban. I would've thought at least a 14 day first.

How many games exactly are we talking about, and what was your score/game contribution?

Note that the games where I didn't get many assists: my team couldn't follow-up and secure the kills. Full-tank Nunu is basically a support.

Also had really good dragon control in most of the games.

http://i.imgur.com/T0BAMD9.png/img

Linna ExcelOct 31, 20161 votes

Being forced to tax laners because no mobs to farm in the jungle is a terrible idea. It's not like the jungle gives as much gold as lanes do as it is.

QuephaOct 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RnUBnNEd,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-31T12:50:49.589+0000)

The enemy jungler is going to be in your lane more.

Your jungler is going to be in your lane more.

God forbid players play together in a team game.

MishliNov 1, 20161 votes

there's a difference between playing together and having someone live in your lane

TalisidOct 31, 20161 votes

I think Riot is worried that certain Junglers right now can just power farm their jungle and get nearly solo-lane gold with almost zero risk.

I think they want to nerf junglers who can clear extremely fast like Olaf Nidalee or Hecarim and make slower clear junglers like Sejuani or Maokai more competitive.