Let's see if we can solve creep block, discuss below:

HalcyonDweller··2 votes·1,314 views

First lets look at the problems surrounding creep block, so that we can better understand why Riot has been so cautious about changing it.

Then lets look for solutions that avoid these problems.

Lastly, we can discuss in the comments.

Please be respectful to one another in the comments. Don't be a dick if someone disagrees with you. This thread isn't for you to posture for the world and show off your opinion. It's for discussing ideas and finding a solution. Thank you.

Reasons for creep block:

  1. Better protection and skill expression for players in lane; we have to play around creep block in order to be able to attack opponents without getting trapped by enemy minions. We can also use this to better protect ourselves when fighting opponents around our own minions.

  2. To keep players from manipulating minion waves. If a player can force a minion to move, they could conceivably mess up that minion's attack pattern, allowing a player to force the lane to push towards them. Riot probably thinks it would be un-fun if the game devolved into opposing laners trying to football tackle their minions around to make the waves push in their favor.

  3. Any other reasons anyone can think of? I'll add to this if anyone can provide compelling ideas in the comments.

Discussion of solutions:

With regards to the first reason for creep block outlined above, it does not make sense for your own minions to hamper your movement, or for them to force your path in odd ways. So I think there should be a mechanic that allows you to push allied minions aside. But it would have to have a lot of limitations, due to reason #2 above.

The ability to push allied minions aside:

  1. Once in combat, minions' attacks should not be disruptable. By this I mean that pushing them should not interrupt their attacks or delay them, this is to prevent players from manipulating the minion waves and how they push.
  1. Minions should only be movable in situations where it makes sense. For example, when there is already a small opening, or when the champion would be forced to path a significantly longer route to reach their destination.
  1. Pushing minions out of the way should slow a champion. It would make sense that when pushing against something you should encounter resistance.
  1. The distance they can be pushed should be limited based on size and grouping. Larger minions should be harder to move, groups of minions also should be harder to move. like 'breaking' in billiards or bowling, knocking one object into another should result in more resistance.

_ _

Preventing blinks, flashes, and dashes from getting you stuck on minions:

Most of us have seen this happen, somebody makes a sweet flash play but there is a minion under their feet when they arrive, causing the champion to spazz out while trying to path. This should never happen. It's un-fun. It ruins sweet plays, and it serves little strategic purpose.

As such I think that Flash (and possibly other blinks as well) should apply some sort of anti-collision effect that only prevents collisions with minions. It's a small change, could only apply for .25 seconds, just needs to be long enough to prevent that notorious and infuriating spazz-attack.

What do you think about creep block?

Do you think these solutions would work? Why or why not?

Discuss below:

37 Comments

Axzarious1 votes

Eh, if anything they need to just fix the pathing issue. It's rather infuriating when you get bodyblocked by a single minion because pathing can't decide if it should go right or left and instead seizures between the two states, or simply gets lost along the way despite there being room.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

That is why I've suggested the changes above. They would allow you to push that single minion aside or 'ghost' through it without having that infuriating loss of control.

Pippen The Short1 votes

Buy a item 3046

Use summoner 6

Problem = Solved

HalcyonDweller2 votes

For obvious reasons, that solution has limitations.

Namely the necessity of flash on most champions and the fact that at least half of the roster cannot make use of the statline of phantom dancer.

Pippen The Short1 votes

Ok, well everyone has to deal with it besides Fizz and Kass so get the fuck over it.

((MOD EDIT)) - Deleted offensive content. Please refrain from posting it in the future. - Galacius

Hey Galacius, you edited mine, but the word appears several other times from other people in the this same post, yet you don't edit it out there.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

You are not helping to solve the problem, in fact you are now attempting to shut down discussion and attack me for trying to discuss it.

There was nothing personal about my initial response to your comment, yet you chose to take it personally, get angry at me, and tell me to "get the fuck over things."

With all due respect, please fuck off.

Pippen The Short1 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDweller2 votes

It looks like you read my title, assumed what I was going to say, and then responded without reading the content of the post.

By doing that you missed the entire point of my post.

If you actually read my post you'll see that I analyze the mechanic, that I recognize its merits and how they benefit the game under certain circumstances, and that I specifically address the buggy and clunky portions of the interaction. I don't want to remove creep block as a mechanic.

I just want it to be better so that pathing does not screw you in shitty situations.

Pippen The Short1 votes

Nonsense. I read the post. The problem is you're searching for solutions to situations when there isn't a legitimate problem.

Creep block is not problem. End of discussion.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Again with reading the first sentence and then replying to only that.

If you actually read the words I typed you'd see I just said I don't want to remove creep block.

I never said creep block was the problem, I showed how it relates to the problem. The real problem is pathing.

You're still presuming to know what I mean, and dismissing my argument based on that. You still don't understand, and you're being a dismissive asshole. STOP posting here, it's obvious you only came here to assert superiority over 'lesser beings' and this is not welcome. No respect due this time. Actually go f-off.


I dunno who downvote all your stuff but it wasn't me. Please don't retaliate by shitting on my post.

Just to prove it I downvote this comment to show there are more votes being cast. Also, you deserved the downvotes. Jerk.

Pippen The Short1 votes

He used his big boy words and tried to assert himself. Try harder next time, and I would say use more vulgarity, but apparently using words on the "naughty list" is not kosher according to Riot standards.

You're still trying to create a solution to a non-existent problem. If creep block "isn't a problem" then there isn't possibly a solution to be had. Yeah, sometimes people fail flash over creeps because creeps are tangible things in the game. If that's an issue for you, then git gud.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

FFS, you still think I'm on about creep block.

Which just proves you're not reading to understand, you're only reading to find ammunition.

I'm done replying to you, you've wasted enough of my time with your blind arrogance.

ModFrom The Cosmos1 votes

Hey guys, let's simmer down here a bit. I'm not going to punish folks in this thread as there is still a discussion being had. Let's try to stay civil so it can remain unmoderated.

Creepblock is a very interesting discussion that has been had quite a few times since I've started playing shortly after Beta. It can be super frustrating, but it also works in your favor sometimes. I'm not sure what the overall solution should be, but this is why healthy discussion is a good thing to have on the Boards.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Ok, thanks. Will attempt harder to remain civil.

One question though, how am I supposed to have a discussion with someone who's not understanding what I write?

I've said here numerous times that I'm talking about pathing, yet the other user has repeatedly asserted that I'm "an idiot for thinking creep block shouldn't be a thing," when am not even talking about creep block in my comments.

Pippen The Short1 votes

This is the problem with your post.

The problem you propose is technically a pathing problem, yes. However the only solution to your problem is to create a mechanic that allows you to "push aside" minions, or just your own. Effectively getting rid of creep block. But, like you've said, creep block isn't a problem and is a mechanic that has many merits, such as a wave manipulation, but you want to get rid of that too.

In simpler terms, you want to get rid of a good mechanic to solve a pathing problem that could otherwise be solved by people using their manual mechanic skills to path themselves properly. Same goes for flashes too. Competent player mechanics would solve all of your problems here. But no, you want to get rid of good mechanics that create strategy and gameplay just because you can't control your champion with any exactitude.

Suffering seizures as a result of fail flashing a minion is punishment for being bad too.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I don't want to get rid of the mechanic entirely. Or even mostly!

With restrictive enough limitations imposed on how and when the pushing could be done, I believe that the majority of mechanics and strategies surrounding creep block would remain protected.

I only really want to change a few edge cases.

For example: When you have a large minion wave pushing a tower and they form a ring that goes all the way to the wall trapping you next to the tower because you were also attacking it. When you try to leave, your character can't walk next to the wall like you want because the minions are in the way... so your character takes the long path around, sometimes into danger.

Maybe creep block doesn't need any changes, maybe it would also work if Minions were forbidden from stretching all the way to a wall when they form a line due to attacking something. That's just one example, but I think that it's a fair request given the situation caused by it.

Kritty2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pippen The Short,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RfocEEp3,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-22T00:22:32.914+0000)

Ok, well everyone has to deal with it besides Fizz and Kass so get the fuck over it.

You forgot Janna!

Pippen The Short1 votes

Thank you for pointing that out.

Kritty1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pippen The Short,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RfocEEp3,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-08-22T00:39:07.825+0000)

Thank you for pointing that out.

Not a problem. I figured that you probably overlooked her, since she's only meta atm because of ardent censer being somewhat busted... maybe... a lot...

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

Undo all the minion block changes they made during season 6 preseason.

Solved.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Going to be honest, I've completely forgotten what it was like back before that. What was the change, how did it affect things?

Was the change that allied minions could block you? Or that enemy minions could do more to block you? Or something else entirely? All I am speaking to with my post is the current state of the game.

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

It was explained a long time ago here

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/EWLnAleN-follow-up-pathing-aka-minion-blocking-update

It definitely did get better as they updated it throughout Season 6, but its still much worse than it was before the update.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thanks for sourcing that! I'm going to go give it a read then I'll respond here with a new comment.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thanks for sourcing that! I'm going to go give it a read then I'll respond here with a new comment.

EDIT: Okay, I understand better now, so its more that when they updated creep block, they didn't update pathing along with it, causing the problems with the pathing system.

This helps a lot to explain what it is that I'm frustrated about. I guess I made my post a little unclear by talking about creep block when really the core of the issue is pathing.

This came up in the other discussion with another user in this thread who now refuses to believe that I mean pathing despite my numerous attempts to explain that.

Selegun1 votes

I don't have many difficulties with minion pathing off the top of my head. Melee minions do some goofy things that I would not mind seeing fixed.

Your flash/dash/blink example has a simple fix (at least from how I'm thinking of it). If after said movement ability you end within a minion why not cause the minions to bump away equal to half the size of your character model? This would fix the spazing during the movement while not preventing creepblock that comes after the fact.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Your flash/dash/blink example has a simple fix (at least from how I'm thinking of it). If after said movement ability you end within a minion why not cause the minions to bump away equal to half the size of your character model? This would fix the spazing during the movement while not preventing creepblock that comes after the fact.

That's a great idea! Hopefully someone at Riot sees your suggestion :D

Selegun1 votes

It took a while to think of it but at the end it boiled down to your burning a resource eg: flash, mana or a cool down, then and only then should it be ok to manipulate minions with any relative ease.

I can sympathise with anyone hating creep block, but that was something I learned to deal with in tandem with last hitting. It's just something players need to spend more time training with and they won't be as miffed when it happens.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

The most upsetting thing to me is when you have a large minion wave pushing a tower and they form a ring that goes all the way to the wall so you can't escape because your pathing takes you the long way around, right through several enemy champions.

The getting stuck on minions when flashing is also awful.

And lastly, being forced to walk around your minion while it is moving and cutting you off, thus forcing you to walk even further out to get around them.... This happened to me last night. Thank god that the Morgana I was against didn't use her Q. I was forced out into the open for obscenely long because my minion kept cutting me off and pathing farther and farther out, I was in front of the minion so it would have been absurdly easy for her to land Q.

Those are the 3 cases in which I hate creep block. It's all about how allied creeps interact with pathing.

Aside from those 3 interactions I don't think there's anything wrong with pathing or creep block.

Selegun1 votes

Yeah, those instances are a bit of a pain to deal with.

In the first example, I've taken to simply standing behind the minions while I watch the minimap. True you are not doing anything, but it feel a good to drop a ping or direct your jungle while you wait. It's not like you are completely vulnerable since so many minions are around so at worst you might get hit with a cool down or two while you are looking away.

100% agree, that's never fun to misjudge a flash.

The last example I actually found a bit of a work around, though it forces you to know how to time it. When you get into that sort of tug of war with a minion or know just before it starts use your movement halt key. Default is S I think. This forces the minion to walk around you rather than deal with the constantly updating of its pathing and just wander around. True it makes you a sitting duck but after a bit of practice you are actually vulnerable for on average about half the time.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, those instances are a bit of a pain to deal with.

Thank you for understanding!

In the first example, I've taken to simply standing behind the minions while I watch the minimap. True you are not doing anything, but it feel a good to drop a ping or direct your jungle while you wait. It's not like you are completely vulnerable since so many minions are around so at worst you might get hit with a cool down or two while you are looking away.

Oof, I can't bring myself to do that, I usually want to keep last hitting minions or push the tower. This only happens to me when the enemy laner is gone and I have a large wave pushing into the tower. I want to damage the tower as well.

100% agree, that's never fun to misjudge a flash.

Indeed.

The last example I actually found a bit of a work around, though it forces you to know how to time it. When you get into that sort of tug of war with a minion or know just before it starts use your movement halt key. Default is S I think. This forces the minion to walk around you rather than deal with the constantly updating of its pathing and just wander around. True it makes you a sitting duck but after a bit of practice you are actually vulnerable for on average about half the time.

Hot damn that's a cool trick! I'm going to have to try it next time that happens to me :) Thanks!

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Selegun1 votes

Yeah, it's kinda a game of wait it out. Until the minions bring the tower to about 1/3 HP I treat the area as a dead zone and avoid it. Doing that lowered my death count by about 2- 4 per game so it's not without benefit. If your looking to take the tower faster you can always pick up Zz- rot or a banner to keep yourself safe.

Good luck practicing the stop mechanic. It helps to turn off the auto attack option in game settings so your champ (if melee) does not side step to swing at anything close. Honestly, the hardest part of that truck is recognising you are about to have your pathing blocked.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I'll have to try that as well, maybe I should also ward farther out before pushing.

Thanks! I'll be mindful of that :)

Thanks for all your thoughtful responses; they were refreshing, helpful, and much appreciated!

[slayer-jinx-catface]

Selegun1 votes

No problem. It's nice to not have a rank lord talking down to you so I'm glad to be here for anyone else that might not need that stress. Let me know how things go won't you?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I'll try! Won't be able to play until the weekend, but if I remember when I do get to play I'll be sure to come back :)

Selegun1 votes

Cool, good luck man!

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

creepblock causes : small lanes, large models, artificial 2-D isometric view with 3D space.

creepblock solutions : change the camera angle. make creeps brush aside when walking through them. Dedicate key bindings to movement.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

How would you envision dedicated movement key bindings working?

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