On Quinn and Valor

Remlap1223··1 votes·458 views

A little birdie told me (I'll see myself out) that Quinn's getting her range buffed to standard issue Marksman levels. That's good. It'll help her be played more bot lane, something I'm all for. However, there's a couple more things that you can do Riot, to get Quinn to some real playable levels, and make her gameplay much more fun and interesting.

First, and what should've been done from the beginning, scale her blind. I know, it's an AOE blind, but it doesn't have to be at Malzahar silence level, or even Teemo's blind level. Something like 1.6 / 1.7 / 1.8 / 1.9 / 2.0 would be perfect. Fact of the matter is, if her Q wasn't her only source of waveclear, I wouldn't level it. The damage it does for being unable to scale? It's a no brainer. E first, then Q, then W.

Second, and probably something I'd wet myself over if it was actually implemented, give Quinn an Master Yi/Akali-esque ultimate that allows Valor to jump from target to target. To add to Quinn's passive (since harrier gets disabled on casting Quinn's ultimate because Valor can't mark targets when he's clawing everyone's eyes out) On casting of Quinn's ultimate, Quinn should get full cooldown resets on all her abilities. On a kill, give her a 10 second cooldown (avoiding the possible vision spam as hiding or engaging should be the main counterplay to this), and increase the duration of Tag Team by 4 seconds. It won't break Skystrike in any way, and will actually encourage Quinn to wait and use it at the very last second so that Valor can dive-bomb everyone.

18 Comments

SnowFall2 votes

You know, if Riot buffs a champion, that champion's nerf expectancy automatically skyrockets, and judging from past experience those nerfs tend to place champions in a worse place than they were.

Remlap12231 votes

So by that logic never buff a champion?

Skia Asteri1 votes

So by that logic never buff a champion?

Lucian went unchanged for a long time, then he became OP. Then he was tweaked and became more OP.

Remlap12231 votes

Yeah TBH, I don't know exactly what happened to Lucian. Probably someone in eSports figured out how to play him properly I guess. Because Lucian was considered to be very weak in his very old form (when his range was 550 and movement speed unchanged), now he's been gutted heavily and is still wreaking havoc on bot lane.

Jefftiffy1 votes

It was more of his ult and the fact that his Q was a skillshot that made him hard. Riot buffed his Q by making it on target (dropped the skill cap hard) and having slightly more range, and that's where all the problems started to come from. On top of that almost immediately after people found out that if you built him right you can make his ult just decimate whatever chases him. He was always strong its just his skill cap was higher than Gnar's until they made him easy mode.

SnowFall1 votes

So by that logic never buff a champion?

There are champions that everyone agrees they're in bad state. Galio Urgot Olaf Maybe you know it just by looking at them. Buff are meant for champions who are in a bad state. Quinn ISN'T in a bad state. Also you don't have to downvote me if my opinion differs from yours.

Remlap12231 votes

Funny, LoLking says something different. 2.67% pick rate, 49.87% win rate. Not really stellar. Plus let me ask you when is the last time you saw a Quinn in game? I'll tell you mine, last game I played was the first time in months which I've seen a Quinn that wasn't me. Everyone's general consensus is that Quinn would be an awesome ADC, except her range sucks, and her abilities scale poorly, and the bugs. She's got a lot of things stacked against her. So no, I would not say that Quinn is in a good state. She's not quite Galio, or Urgot, or Olaf, or Gangplank, but she's up there.

SnowFall1 votes

Funny, LoLking says something different. 2.67% pick rate, 49.87% win rate. Not really stellar. Plus let me ask you when is the last time you saw a Quinn in game? I'll tell you mine, last game I played was the first time in months which I've seen a Quinn that wasn't me. Everyone's general consensus is that Quinn would be an awesome ADC, except her range sucks, and her abilities scale poorly, and the bugs. She's got a lot of things stacked against her. So no, I would not say that Quinn is in a good state. She's not quite Galio, or Urgot, or Olaf, or Gangplank, but she's up there.

Have you been playing against Quinn top? Was that easy? Do you know she's played mid in high ranks with high success too? She doesn't need to go bot. Also gangplank is the same - unpopular, but very strong.

SeargentAnus1 votes

Funny, LoLking says something different. 2.67% pick rate, 49.87% win rate. Not really stellar. Plus let me ask you when is the last time you saw a Quinn in game? I'll tell you mine, last game I played was the first time in months which I've seen a Quinn that wasn't me. Everyone's general consensus is that Quinn would be an awesome ADC, except her range sucks, and her abilities scale poorly, and the bugs. She's got a lot of things stacked against her. So no, I would not say that Quinn is in a good state. She's not quite Galio, or Urgot, or Olaf, or Gangplank, but she's up there.

Have you been playing against Quinn top? Was that easy? Do you know she's played mid in high ranks with high success too? She doesn't need to go bot.

I agree that they should give up on her going botlane, but she has to play much better then her lane opponent to win lane, which shouldn't be the case on an early/late game carry.

Remlap12231 votes

She doesn't need to go bot

SHE WAS MEANT TO BE AN AD CARRY! Riot has scrapped champions and reworked them because of stuff like this! Morgana was meant to be an AP carry mid, but now is causing trouble in bot lane. Why can't we change Quinn to make her more viable in the role that she was meant to be played in? That makes no sense that you would argue against that. I don't care if she's top lane, I love Quinn top, but pidgeonholing (heh) her into a single role just limits a champion. While I think Morgana needs to be re-tuned, I don't want to see mid Morgana disappear. Variety is the spice of life.

SnowFall1 votes

She doesn't need to go bot

SHE WAS MEANT TO BE AN AD CARRY! Riot has scrapped champions and reworked them because of stuff like this! Morgana was meant to be an AP carry mid, but now is causing trouble in bot lane. Why can't we change Quinn to make her more viable in the role that she was meant to be played in? That makes no sense that you would argue against that. I don't care if she's top lane, I love Quinn top, but pidgeonholing (heh) her into a single role just limits a champion. While I think Morgana needs to be re-tuned, I don't want to see mid Morgana disappear. Variety is the spice of life.

No, it's okay that you want your champion to be changed/reworked/buffed, just don't want anyone to see how they will nerf her into oblivion afterwards.

Remlap12231 votes

Here's a list of champions off of the top of my head that have been either nerfed appropriately, or have been brought back into viability via buffs recently: Ahri Alistar Gangplank Garen Hecarim Jax Kassadin Kayle Khazix KogMaw Maokai Nidalee Skarner Twitch Yasuo.

Granted, Riot made a few oopsies in terms of overbuffing champions: Tristana Nidalee

And a few champions had their kits gutted due to inherent issues: Braum Cassiopeia Elise Evelynn Sona Soraka Talon

But the game is healthier because of that. We now know that having a Q scale AP to 200% after a certain distance is travelled is toxic Nidalee.

We now know that certain champions are better off being utility and cooldown gated rather than mana-gated Alistar Maokai.

We now know that sticking a silence on an assassin when they already have huge gap clears led to burst AP casters getting pushed out of the mid lane meta: Talon Leblanc Kassadin.

My main and favorite champion Gangplank has been nerfed into oblivion after reaching the Renekton top lane god status Season 2. He's been bottom tier ever since. But you know what, they just buffed and reworked his ultimate. And look at all the "Olafed" champions that made a comeback: Alistar Garen Leblanc Maokai Rammus Singed Skarner Tristana Viktor.

So yeah, arguing against buffing a champion because they might be nerfed in the future is a stupid argument.

SeargentAnus2 votes

What Quinn needs is this -More reliability -Bug fixes -Better AA -Valor to use Harrier

I agree with the scaling blind, but not sure about the ult as her e already does that. I feel that Valor should get armorpen and the value of that armor upon harrier proc. It'd make her dueling power skyrocket, and would justify its CD.

SnowFall1 votes

Why do people enjoy changing anything about Quinn? She is most different from most ADC and should just stay that way. Yes, the bruisers gonna hate, but if they were to nerf top Quinn, they would rather nerf top Teemo first. Her kit is completely fine, don't change her.

KoKoboto1 votes

Nah. Why? Just cuz.

Konidias1 votes

First time I actually agree with everything someone has suggested about Quinn.

I main Quinn and have over 500 games on her...

Her blind needs to scale. Her ult on kill needs to do some cooldown resets...

I play her mostly as an assassin and this would really benefit her. Right now she dives in to assassinate and is just stuck there after with everything on cooldown. Whereas other assassins can just jump from target to target, deleting everyone.

I also feel like her bilnd is too weak because her AA range is so low. The problem is that when she tries to trade with anyone who outranges her, they get a free hit on her when she comes in for a blind, then they get blinded, she gets maybe 2-3 AAs off before the blind wears off, and then the enemy is still in range to hit her 1-2 times before she can get far enough away. So basically she barely benefits at all from hitting her Q.

Like try to blind caitlyn and trade with her... She outranges so much she can land 1-2 autos before you even land your blind... then you have to actually get super close to her to AA her... and after the blind wears off, you are now at 525 range on Caitlyn, who can now just AA you 2 more times. What good is that really?

Her blind is super strong against melee champs, but against champs who outrange her, the blind is basically letting you evenly trade or just survive.

But see, sure Quinn dominates melee champs early game, but by level 7+ the tanky top melee champ can just take tons of Quinn AAs and laugh. The scaling blind would at least keep Quinn relevant against the tanky top laner later.

Once tanky tops get some armor items, it's like shooting spitballs at them. The only way you can damage them is to use all of your skills as soon as they are on cooldown. You burn through all of your mana just to get the tank to half HP, and by that point, you are having to back to base or spend all your money on mana pots to stay in lane.

Jefftiffy1 votes

Quinn has never felt like an ADC to me. If anything, these changes made by Riot solidify her role top lane even more. Sure she has more range, but when she is best used in a 1v1 why would you bring her somewhere where there is a 2v2. I would much prefer to use the extra advantage in top lane than bot.

I play her top mostly because her bot lane is so lackluster. An all in ADC in a lane with a ton of CC is usually not the best idea so bringing her top against slow moving targets where she can escape is a much better position to have her. And her late game 1v1 is almost on Yi's level and her split pushing is way better than his. On top of this she can abuse someone being out of position a lot harder than a normal assassin.

For those of you saying she was meant to be an ADC. I want to say that she was made as a new form of anti-ADC with the capability to be used as an ADC if need be, but she does much better at getting rid of carries in team fights then acting like an ADC.

Pika3101 votes

The problem is, they also want to lower Quinn's MS as a "trade-off" (nerf) for an unnoticeable increase to her range. Thus she'll be less mobile, worse at chasing, escape, a smaller MS boost from Harrier. Even worse, the entire idea is pure unadulterated nerfs to Valor. He doesn't benefit from Quinn gaining more range, fact is he'll be just that much farther from his target when he's called on. Except, he'll have less movement speed to make up for the increased distant and just like her, it'll be more difficult for him to stick to his target or escape.

If Riot is going to continue using their inherently-flawed, new-found philosophy of "tradeoffs" (nerfs), then they need to just give up already on making Quinn an ADC. She's a top-lane marksman, they need to accept and embrace this fact like they accepted Zyra being a support. It's better than nerfing Quinn's overall viability just to homogenize her into a role where she'll be even more lackluster at than where she currently is.

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