Why Tahm kench can solo lane?

Best princess EU·Jan 8, 2016·40 votes·3,466 views

wasn't allowed to solo lane, is there any special treatement?

65 Comments

137434Jan 8, 201622 votes

It was literally one change (no longer able to aa enemy as they flew away from headbutt), that was probably a bug fix to begin with, that made most people stop playing Ali top.

Riot has done nothing to ensure that Ali can't solo lane, and you see still occasionally see it. Riot just makes sure that he is not an effective jungler.

The thing about Ali vs Tahm is that his (Ali's) kit is much more useful/effective if you have a partner with you- hence his typical support role (and anyone who remembers the horrors of Ali jungle knows why Riot keeps that down). Tahm functions better alone than Ali does. That is why you see solo Tahm and rarely solo Ali.

SaiannaJan 9, 20168 votes

It's kind of funny, cause that auto attack after headbutt was pretty much like attack cancel mechanic. But hey, we don't want any unfair mechanic advantages, right? right? (wanted to make long pun, but it got broken)

GG Noob TeamJan 9, 20164 votes

{quoted}

It's kind of funny, cause that auto attack after headbutt was pretty much like attack cancel mechanic. But hey, we don't want any unfair mechanic advantages, right? right? (wanted to make long pun, but it got broken)

I would rather to be a knocked away and taken 500 damage than be devoured and take a 1k to 2k damage with perma slow-stun doing idiotic damage just be going full reta... ehm full tank.

**AT FUCKING LEAST ALISTAR HAS TO BUY SOME OFFENSIVE ITEMS RIGHT??? ** And cannot kill you alone if you are not an idiot.

SpecterVonBarenJan 9, 20163 votes

Alistar also has 70% damage reduction and a 90 AD steroid on his ult which allows him to build full damage and still be tanky.

AhristocatsJan 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Alistar also has 70% damage reduction and a 90 AD steroid on his ult which allows him to build full damage and still be tanky.

and remember what? everyone run during his ulti

except Vayne

MelledoneusJan 9, 20164 votes

Tahm has two health bars.

And a passive that gives him Veigar levels of mafic damage for building HP.

Auz the RipperJan 9, 20163 votes

It's flat magic damage, not AP

MelledoneusJan 9, 20161 votes

Fixed. Good catch.

5050BSJan 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kayle Player,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RZABhNPt,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-01-09T03:06:41.063+0000)

I would rather to be a knocked away and taken 500 damage than be devoured and take a 1k to 2k damage with perma slow-stun doing idiotic damage just be going full reta... ehm full tank.

**AT FUCKING LEAST ALISTAR HAS TO BUY SOME OFFENSIVE ITEMS RIGHT??? ** And cannot kill you alone if you are not an idiot.

Riots bad design of champs that dont have to buy other items to be offensive or def is that just bad design. Its toxic to a game. but Riot makes there money from LCS now so they have no care as to what the average player thinks.

junglerboy16Jan 9, 201610 votes

First: Alistar can definitely solo lane, his AP bruiser build works quite well right now (one of my favorites actually).

Second: TahmKench was originally designed to solo lane before they let him devourer allies, which made him more supportive. They still wanted him to solo lane though.

Basically you're running off a faulty/inaccurate premise. Alistar is definitely "allowed" to solo lane, Riot just really dislikes "No counterplay Trinity force+Crit Alistar" where he head butted you and AAed for a super safe extremely damaging trade. His lane pattern outside that bug (because it was a bug) is perfectly healthy. He doesn't deal much damage without some serious items and he falls off late game, but he is a great team fight tank, split pusher, and tower diver. The key difference between the two is that Alistar has some of the strongest non-ultimate engage in the whole game, Tahm doesn't.

Really, the only thing Alistar is specifically not allowed to do is jungle, because Alistar with gold and constant, safe, powerful chain ganks is a nightmare that even makes Nocturne wet the bed.

D357R0Y3RJan 8, 20167 votes

because he is healthy in solo lane

alistar isn't

Mr Broken WingsJan 8, 201633 votes

{quoted}

because he is healthy in solo lane

alistar isn't

Ahahahahaha, healthy. Why, because he is a tank and outdamages carries at the moment if he goes toplane? Because he still has all his utility? Because his stackmechanic is the only one in this game that doesnt disappear instantly after a short period of time? Because he can stunlock people with his q because it doesnt refresh his stack timer on max stacks? Oh god guys, you cant seriously enjoy playing against tahm cancer.

D357R0Y3RJan 8, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RZABhNPt,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-08T19:38:24.808+0000)

Ahahahahaha, healthy. Why, because he is a tank and outdamages carries at the moment if he goes toplane? Because he still has all his utility? Because his stackmechanic is the only one in this game that doesnt disappear instantly after a short period of time? Because he can stunlock people with his q because it doesnt refresh his stack timer on max stacks? Oh god guys, you cant seriously enjoy playing against tahm cancer.

that's because riot said that alistar can do nothing but support, else he is toxic

Mr Broken WingsJan 8, 20165 votes

{quoted}

that's because riot said that alistar can do nothing but support, else he is toxic

Tahm has obviously also a lot of frustrating and toxic things in his kit on a sololane, just because riot didnt nerf him for that reason YET ( and they will I guess because he is retarded at the moment) doesnt mean he is healthy at toplane.

TotalJerkJan 9, 201611 votes

Tahm main problem is the stupidly overtuned damage numbers, not inherent bullshit in his kit. The few times Alistar was played top it was because you pretty much couldn't interact with him, and when he's played jungle his ganking reliability combined with his damage output is bullshit.

KarKzzJan 9, 20165 votes

Yeah, but it's fine as long as he isn't sticky /s

A Miss FortuneJan 9, 20161 votes

Nothing wrong with an infinite CC chain of slows and stuns.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 8, 201618 votes

{quoted}

because he is healthy in solo lane

alistar isn't

the fuck

hopeful4Jan 8, 20161 votes

Dude. Arent you tired of using your alt accounts to start threads and conversations with yourself? Havent you anything better to do rofl

KONO RUBICK DAJan 8, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Dude. Arent you tired of using your alt accounts to start threads and conversations with yourself? Havent you anything better to do rofl

right, because i have multiple lvl 30 account, while i'm playing dota 2 rofl

Serika ZeroJan 9, 20161 votes

Alistar was Able to: Headbutt + auto attack you away, every single time it was off cooldown. Basically, use 2 moves on you and you playing anything else than Morgana (black shield), Diana (knock up), Draven (knock side ways), Janna (knock up), Maokai (perfectly timed knock-up), Quinn (perfect timed knock-up), Trundle (knock-up) would not be able to retaliate. There's other champions with knock-ups in their kit but their cooldowns are even worse than trundle. Meaning Alistar could do W+aa like 4-7 times before you would get your interruption move/combo. The concept of "trading" is a big deal on all lanes. Yes, people in bronze and silver often do not trade back, but you can't get above gold if you got no clue how to trade. Alistar was simply negating this "trade" aspect, doing point and click damage on you + getting a item 3057 empowered auto attack on you.

And that's precisely the reason why Alistar was played top to begin with. Because he can do damage while the enemy can't trade back. And because that "mechanic" baically said "fuck you" to almost all top laners, riot decided to remove it from his kit. That simple nerf to make alistar NOT use his auto attack right after headbutt (before the target was knock-ed back) meant alistar was only getting his W off on targets, no longer W+ item 3057 AA and this was enough to push him out of top lane.

Tbh, there's other bullshit on top anyway at this point. Swain is entirely point and click and his damage is absurd. Gnar says if you are melee and not Fiora, you will SUFFER. There's no reliable way to trade back with him when you are melee. Same thing as Gnar valid for Quinn . DrMundo after lv6 its pointless to trade with him. You will deal similar dmg to him as he will do to you, except he will heal all of that up, and you end up in a situation when you got like half hp and he is full. Yorick i rather not explain.

MelledoneusJan 9, 20164 votes

You forget that Fiora is the most bullshit top laner in the game.

Ch0c0lateJesusJan 9, 20162 votes

To be fair, Renekton is pretty un-interactive too. E-W-Q-E free won trade, and he doesnt even use mana.

Alli has a better late game though..

HayRossJan 9, 20165 votes

He was meant to go top lane and be a support, like Taric

MunchCrunchLunchJan 8, 20164 votes

tahm kench has 2 healthbars in a short fight.

VictoryDance96Jan 8, 20163 votes

Alistar was built to be a rediculously good support, and he is, which is why he used to be (and in a way still is) a huge permaban. However, being that kind of support results in him being very dependent on his teammates to get kills and assists. You can still build him as a tanky brusier or an AP Assassin of course, but with his AP ratios toned down ALOT it is much harder to do.

Tahm. Tahm Tahm Tahm. Tahm on the other hand does not need to worry about what to build (AP, AD, armor, health, CD?) because his attacks scale off of one thing: health. A Tahm Kench in the late game with 3 item 3083 , a item 3065 , a item 3102 and item 3143 ... is unkillable and unstoppable! Plus the fact that Tahm is a lot newer than Alistar... so yeah.

AbusingMyRightsJan 8, 20164 votes

TahmKench item 3020 item 3151 magic pen is pretty good on him too and liandrys gives health. Q and W extend the liandry duration as well. Mid kench is fun.

SeenanJan 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

magic pen is pretty good on him too and liandrys gives health. Q and W extend the liandry duration as well. Mid kench is fun.

I'm thinking perma-liandrys/slow with Rylai's? If that works, I mean.

AbusingMyRightsJan 9, 20161 votes

The only skills, if i'm not mistaken, that would proc the rylais effect would be his Q and W.(unless the passive on his ult does but i can't imagine). The Q ends up as a 70% slow(or stun) and the W is hard cc when you eat a champion and a 0.25sec stun if a minion is spit at an enemy with aoe dmg. The only slow effect you would get would be if you spit a minion at an enemy champion causing a net 0.75 sec slow. The stats are great for him but i don't think the slow gives enough utility to be worth buying it over something else like a item 3068 which gives the hp, some resistance and a magic burn effect that gets amplified by your other magic pen items(its getting buffed next patch too :) )

Bouncemaster ZacJan 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Alistar was built to be a rediculously good support, and he is, which is why he used to be (and in a way still is) a huge permaban. However, being that kind of support results in him being very dependent on his teammates to get kills and assists. You can still build him as a tanky brusier or an AP Assassin of course, but with his AP ratios toned down ALOT it is much harder to do.

Tahm. Tahm Tahm Tahm. Tahm on the other hand does not need to worry about what to build (AP, AD, armor, health, CD?) because his attacks scale off of one thing: health. A Tahm Kench in the late game with 3 , a , a and ... is unkillable and unstoppable! Plus the fact that Tahm is a lot newer than Alistar... so yeah.

I wanna know what his AP ratios used to be since AP Cow can still one-shot squishies easily with only two items. And this is after a large amount of toning down?

Auz the RipperJan 9, 20161 votes

Pulverize and headbutt both used to have 1.0 AP ratios

It was a long time ago though

pepperonipieJan 8, 20163 votes

I believe it is because when he was first released, he was meant to be a solo lane tank with his W as a means to assist in teamfights. But on release, the players put him in a support role to escape hard CC with the speed boost. That is why on the next patch, they nerfed the passive on his ult. It used to have the bonus magic damage scale off of MAX health instead of the BONUS health we use today.

Also; TahmKench UNBENCH THE KENCH

qetzelJan 9, 20163 votes

The difference is that Tahm in a solo lane has some level of counterplay. Alistair headbutted you away from him and got a Sheen/Shiv empowered AA for free. You can at least interact with Tahm in a meaningful way.

Athenes LuluJan 9, 20163 votes

It's like asking people why can't Karma solo lane but Lulu can. Or why don't people do it, though it is viable.

Also, Taric in a solo lane = 100% legit.

hi hi its zy zyJan 9, 20161 votes

Did we just say Taric can solo lane but Karma can't ????

Athenes LuluJan 9, 20162 votes

I was using that line as an analogy because OP said Alistar "can't solo lane", when he obviously can.

Welp, sorry for the loss of clarification.

hi hi its zy zyJan 9, 20163 votes

i wrote that at like 3 am so my reading comprehension wasnt present

Sugar MommaJan 9, 20161 votes

Plus one for the name ;))))

Doctor JarvisJan 9, 20163 votes

Because Tahm can't, hypothetically, knock you under his tower and keep you there forever. He can't decide he wants to dive you, ignore the CC you throw on him, and take 30% damage from everything while gaining ~100 AD. Tahm can't push the wave forever with a single ability with a negligible cool down. There's at least one champion that can do all 3 of these things and I can't think of his name but that's not a healthy solo laner

HabitzJan 8, 20162 votes

Alistar can be scary in solo lane

Shrek LuigiJan 8, 20162 votes

The one hard CC Tahm has outside of his ramp-up stun makes his target untargetable, and is tied to his peel--the most useful aspect his kit. Alistair has an AOE knock up and displacement.

Two completely different Champs.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 9, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dunderlords OP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RZABhNPt,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-01-08T23:47:30.290+0000)

The one hard CC Tahm has makes his target untargetable, and is tied to his peel--the most useful aspect his kit. Alistair has an AOE knock up and displacement.

Two completely different Champs.

you have hidden a lot of fact

alistar has HELL LESS damage than tahm, has more mana cost problem, doesn't have map presence, and have less cc than tahm, because TK's stun has like 5 sec cd. Yes it stuns if you have 3 passives and the stun doesn't consum the mark

Shrek LuigiJan 9, 20165 votes

Tahm Kench can't heal people, can't stand up to %hp damage as well and doesn't require stacks to disable people--several of them at a time, even. Oh, and he takes 70% less damage while his Ult is up.

You can list off a bunch of stuff that other Champs can't do to overstate how strong Tahm actually is, but it works both ways. Tahm Kench is incapable of doing several things Ali is capable of doing, and it's very naive to compare two Champs side-by-side and only bark about what other champs lack in comparison.

Only Play DariusJan 9, 20162 votes

Why not?

I think it's neat that we can have a support who can hold his own in solo lane, and he has clear weaknesses in both lanes

Silents429Jan 9, 20161 votes

Wasn't the change for Ali just a bug fix? I swear I even remember them saying they had no problem with jungle Ali or top ali

Actually followup, have you bothered trying to make top Ali work? Or are you just assuming it doesn't?

ParoeJan 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't the change for Ali just a bug fix? I swear I even remember them saying they had no problem with jungle Ali or top ali

Actually followup, have you bothered trying to make top Ali work? Or are you just assuming it doesn't?

His passive used to be much more powerful in the jungle. iirc it was nerfed to flat not effect jungle mobs? the empowered AA thing was a bug though.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 9, 20161 votes

i played alistar jungle cpl times. it was god like. his clear is just so good. he has good sustain. and great ganks.

LadyRenlyJan 9, 20161 votes

Tahm is more fun as a carry solo laner than a starved support that way ppl can't bitch about my damage because that makes me no different from mundo/malphite

KaisadiIIaJan 9, 20161 votes

Because he was designed for top, but then they decided to make him a supp, but without killing his solo-lane potential (that's what they said, at least).

Also, Alistar is toxic in solo lanes (or that's what RIOT says), while Tahm is not.