What makes Nasus balanced?

GripaAviara·Feb 12, 2019·8 votes·2,372 views

Except for a number of champions that you can count on one hand, Nasus completely destroys everything in his wake. Almost every champion has its hard counters so this turns into a non-argument

What makes him balanced except the fact he is melee?

With an adequate kit, he is almost un-kite-able He has incredible sustain He has infinite scaling He has AoE wave control He has tremendous damage on turrets He has innate armor penetration He has an incredibly powerful slow He is very tanky and builds up the necessary damage from farm alone, making his farm one of the most gold efficient in the whole game Not only that but he currently ramps up pretty fast making so the late game argument falls

39 Comments

Frosted TipsFeb 12, 20197 votes

I think Nasus is unhealthy. Not saying he is OP or UP, but unhealthy for the game. He has built in sustain that is way too strong imo and his W is far too strong. People say all the time to keep him down and to punish his early game, but in solo q people don't cooperate as well as in a team environment so yes I can kill Nasus 1v1 all day in lane, but eventually he will beat me in a 1v1 because wither and infinite stacking. Also I can't leave lane for long of he gets free stacks and unless my team is fully coordinated we will not push the game fast enough. I think Nasus needs a new passive and a new W or atleast change the current ones up a bit.

xAcidikFeb 12, 20194 votes

He's a weak teamfighter. He's a strong duelist, of course, because he's balanced as a 1v1 splitpusher. In teamfights, there's so very little the poor guy can do.

GripaAviaraFeb 12, 20192 votes

Like tanking, powerful AoE armor debuff and CC?

rtbf221651412Feb 12, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Like tanking, powerful AoE armor debuff and CC?

I was going to bring this up. People severely underestimate his debuffing capabilities. Just exacerbates the damage meta. Adding an item 3025 makes it even worse.

TobykachuFeb 12, 20192 votes

Powerful AoE armor debuff that only works if he's next to high priority targets (he probably won't be) and powerful cc? That single target slow?

130xApr 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He's a weak teamfighter. He's a strong duelist, of course, because he's balanced as a 1v1 splitpusher. In teamfights, there's so very little the poor guy can do.

I disagree. He can 2 shot any dmg target and wither the priority targets so the rest of the team can kill them. His cds are incredibly low and he doesnt even need to build armor to be able to tank 6 consecutive tower hits like nothing while fighting. 1v1 is not even worth attempting for anyone if his ult is up. Even if you shut him down early, all he needs do is find a single large wave and he is able to 2 shot and squishies.

HateDaddyFeb 12, 20193 votes

Because all you have to do is walk away from him. If you’re the one that is withered, he won’t touch you anyway because he will be cc’d to death. Unless he gets really far ahead, he does very quickly even with full tank builds + his ult because damage just overwhelms defense so quickly, especially when all 5 champions can dish it out now. His strength is a split pusher and while that’s annoying, that’s what he’s balanced as now.

GripaAviaraFeb 12, 20195 votes

specially when all 5 champions can dish it out now.

Yeah, because focusing nasus in a 5v5 team fight is usually a smart choice

Moody PFeb 12, 20195 votes

are you here for advice or are you here to whine when people give you advice?

rtbf221651412Feb 12, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RVNdPNsa,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T01:37:06.802+0000)

are you here for advice or are you here to whine when people give you advice?

He's not wrong though. It's pretty dumb to focus Nasus but you are forced to considering his current state. Kind of why people have an issue with him now.

Moody PFeb 12, 20195 votes

It's unfair that you have to focus a melee carry or else he'll be a melee carry?

You don't even need to kill him. Just keep him off your MVPs. Stun him and then move the fight. Counters his E too. The longer you keep him away the more damage he loses out on.

rtbf221651412Feb 12, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RVNdPNsa,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T01:45:54.066+0000)

It's unfair that you have to focus a melee carry or else he'll be a melee carry?

You don't even need to kill him. Just keep him off your MVPs. Stun him and then move the fight. Counters his E too. The longer you keep him away the more damage he loses out on.

Uh no. Taking what I said in a different way isn't how you win arguments dude.

The problem is if he survives the teamfight, he will split push if he isn't dead. If you try to kill him however, he will be so tanky that you are going to die from actual carries. The amount of seconds it takes to kill him is enough for people to one shot your team (if he isn't one shotting you instead) a punishment for focusing him. It's a lose-lose situation right now. They buffed the wrong part of him. You have all these tenacity stats, runes, and items that dispel cc. I highly doubt ONE nasus player won't use at least ONE of these. A good Nasus won't chase. They will just attack the closest target to maximize his potential. That is excluding his AoE.

TobykachuFeb 12, 20192 votes

Nasus isn't going to be as tanky as genuine tanky champions, as he generally builds, at the very least, a sheen item.

rtbf221651412Feb 12, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Nasus isn't going to be as tanky as genuine tanky champions, as he generally builds, at the very least, a sheen item.

item 3025

I highly doubt he needs Trinity anymore with that Q buff. The only he needs is the attack speed which he can get elsewhere. Saying 65 (95 with Ornn) armor isn't tanky is an understatement. Once they actually make tanking viable again, he's going to be MORE OBVIOUS nightmare. You need fast observation skills to notice why he is an issue right now.

TobykachuFeb 12, 20192 votes

And you don't see the amount of damage in the game right now? 65 armor is never going to make him as tanky as one of the other more defensively oriented armor items.

rtbf221651412Feb 12, 20193 votes

{quoted}

And you don't see the amount of damage in the game right now? 65 armor is never going to make him as tanky as one of the other more defensively oriented armor items.

You just said he needed Sheen. Guess what Sheen builds into? And AGAIN, once tanking actually becomes viable, it will become more obvious to those with slow observational skills on why he is an issue right now. That is because he will die slower. You can't eat your cake and have it whole. In team fights he is a walking target and people WILL focus him for the reasons I stated above. That armor gives seconds for the team to punish the enemy for focusing him. If your team isn't brain dead, they will abuse that factor.

TobykachuFeb 12, 20191 votes

and you honestly think Iceborn Gauntlet is enough of a tank item for Nasus to sit on the front line and face tank damage from a mid laner/adc?

All the reasons being listed right now are legitimate reasons and why Nasus doesn't get picked at all in high level/pro play.

rtbf221651412Feb 12, 20192 votes

{quoted}

and you honestly think Iceborn Gauntlet is enough of a tank item for Nasus to sit on the front line and face tank damage from a mid laner/adc?

All the reasons being listed right now are legitimate reasons and why Nasus doesn't get picked at all in high level/pro play.

Did you even read what I said? It's not about being black and white. If you can't see the full picture of the complexity of the interconnected issues he has right now, you probably shouldn't respond to me.

I already simplified it. I don't need to repeat myself. If you didn't understand it before, you wont if I simplify it more.

Also you brought up sheen saying he doesn't build tanky. I showed you an item sheen builds into with some tankiness. Then you said tanks are useless, trying to bury your head in the sand to the counter-argument. Are you here for actual questions, discussions, or just for your pride?

TobykachuFeb 12, 20191 votes

Yes, it is black and white. I don't see what's so complicated about it. You seem to somehow think Nasus is completely overpowered despite the fact his pick rate in pro play is still 0 I believe, meaning clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with his kit. The thing that has always been fundamentally wrong with his kit.

No matter what Sheen item he decides to build, he will not have the same survivability as a Sejuani who has built nothing but tank stats, as a significant portion of IBG's power budget is invested in the Sheen effect and the AoE slow it provides and this argument extends to the rest of him. He simply is not tanky enough to live through an assault from the enemy adc/mid laner. Sure, in some scenarios, he might be lucky enough to be against full lethality MF and a relatively low damage mid laner, but in most cases there will be enough damage on the enemy team to kill him before he is able to get into the back line.
Nasus has no mobility options in his kit and for a champion who's completely reliant on being in melee range, that is a catastrophic weakness to have, especially when considering the number of slows/stuns/roots most supports offer. How is he meant to close the gap with Thresh Q/W/R? Or Bard perma slowing him with meeps/Q/R. Or how about Brand with Rylais? Almost every champion in the game has some kind of CC option or at least 1 mobility spell in their kit. How do you suppose Nasus can reliably get into the back line of the enemy team?

It is 100% a black and white issue. No matter how much the buff his damage, he will still have these primary issues in his kit that prevents him from becoming a top tier issue. Sure, in low elo he's a problem because people don't know how to properly fight against him, but claiming he is a broken champion or even particularly problematic is a completely ridiculous statement and judging from the stance you have on the issue, I'm guessing you're part of that low elo group.

Frosted TipsFeb 12, 20191 votes

Just because you have an issue or weakness does not mean a champion is not over powered. Not saying Nasus is or isn't OP, but your reasoning is flawed.

TobykachuFeb 12, 20191 votes

Nowhere did I state that no champion has ever been overpowered as no champion has ever had a 100% win rate, meaning a weakness must exist somewhere. However I made clear points illustrating some of Nasus' weak points and as a melee fighter style champion, they are major weaknesses.

Of course he's overpowered if you stand in front of him, don't move and no one cc's him, but the same can be said for a lot of champions. Blitzcrank is op if you walk into every one of his hooks. Draven is OP if you let him cash in on a massive stack.

rtbf221651412Feb 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Blitzcrank is op if you walk into every one of his hooks.

Wrong. If I am WW and prepare my fear, I want you to hook me, especially if I am building tanky and you are pulling me into your entire team just for your entire team to be feared.

Not that this outlier means you are completely and utterly wrong and don't have a point whatsoever, but it's definitely abusable to have someone hook you to actually make you do your job when you have no initiation except your ult. Your team WILL rage at you if you hook a WW preparing his fear. (See how this wasn't black and white?)

I'm not responding to your other reply that is directly towards me because you left that convo and just want to be right. There is nothing to gain nor learn from such a state.

TobykachuFeb 12, 20191 votes

Except even that scenario is not necessarily ideal for a Warwick, seeing as by the time the knock up and silence have worn off, the primary targets for him should have created enough distance between them to nit be in range of the fear. Same thing if he uses it straight away.

One specific interaction doesn't immediately grey the black and white situation. There are times when Nasus will be a dominant pick and mow down the competition without any of his weaknesses being particularly exploitable, such as if the enemy team decide to pick 5 melee champions, but this doesn't give credence to your idea that Nasus is OP, just because you don't know how to fight him.

Nasus has always been a black and white champion and if you asked any high elo streamer/pro player they'd tell you the exact same thing as I am - without any mobility, Nasus is far too kiteable to reliably dish out damage to the priority targets during the mid and late game and has an early game that's far too easy to exploit for basically every top laner.

You seem to be of the opinion that I'm not right even though I factually am right. If we was a genuine issue then his win rate would be higher accross the board and he'd have a significantly higher play rate and actually see use in competitive play. Just because low elo players don't have the forethought to attack a Nasus on one of his numerous weaknesses, doesn't make the champion OP.

If Riot nerfed every champion with a significantly higher win rate in low elo than normal then some champions would simply get to a point where they are literally unplayable in low elo.

xAcidikFeb 12, 20191 votes

My mans dishing out the knowledge

Moody PFeb 12, 20191 votes

some people irritate me asking how to deal with shit and then not accepting advice

Nasus isn't hard to handle

DerMangoJoghurtFeb 12, 20193 votes

Like most Juggernauts he's extremely scary in 1v1 scenarios, but it's difficult for him to find a footing in teamfights. He's just not mobile enough to get to the high priority targets. Even if he's going full tank, he's so easily kiteable that he's still likely to die before reaching the backline.

Zeppelins circusFeb 12, 20193 votes

How on earth is he unkitable. Most of the Nasus players I've seen has been blown up while being knocked up and landing like 2 Qs. Although this might be "league of damage", it is also "league of cc".

SmurfrakaFeb 12, 20193 votes

Nasus has one of the lowest skill floors and ceilings in the game - this means he's making more of a flat contribution across games. i.e if you could see the line showing the "value"' of Elise from silver to diamond, it would be MUCH steeper, because skillshots and tactical decisions give Elise more room to both outplay and mess up. Nasus is "balanced" by the fact that he has virtually no outplay potential, so he just doesn't fly in high elos. They also often have the coordination or foresight to be able to CC him and kite effectively. Imo, being a walking skillcheck is incredibly unhealthy, but it is what it is.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 12, 20192 votes

The fact that this game isn't balanced around Silver.

RysophageFeb 12, 20193 votes

It ain't balanced around gold either! Anything below plat is low elo so why don't you calm down there sparky.

BeersteinFeb 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It ain't balanced around gold either! Anything below plat is low elo so why don't you calm down there sparky.

"low elo" is subjective. It's an opinion not a fact "sparky," if anything the metrics would indicate that you're incorrect, unless you consider in any given situation below the top 10% "low" which, fair to you if you set higher standards for yourself, but again, it's an opinion.

All of that is irrelevant to the topic though. In general, people should probably state where the issue is for them given their rank, and leave it at that. It's feedback for your rank, and shouldn't be expected to be uniform with the entire population. It's okay to be different. It's not up to us to make final decisions, only voice our opinions.

TobykachuFeb 12, 20192 votes

It's usually the support's job to deal with Nasus during team fights. Most, if not all, have multiple ways of ccing Nasus for extended periods of time, even if it's just a slow, allowing the ranged carries to dish out significant damage to him. Despite gaining an infinite amount of damage, he doesn't gain infinite amount of tankiness and given he likes to build more like a bruiser than a tank, he really struggles to break through a tank line before a 3/4 item breaks through him.

BeersteinFeb 12, 20192 votes

He's pretty well balanced but super frustrating to play against. The reason being you can shut him down super hard early, and he can still be very powerful by mid game. The reason for this is that his stacks work purely off last hitting, which is a slow process early game, especially when he's being hit hard. But since damage also scales with items, and level, as the game progresses, and even with a few Q stacks, clearing waves of farm and JG become relatively easy mid game. Just like how non JG champs can't jungle early but can plow through a jungle by mid game.

So what happens is he gets shut down, but then can get TONS of stacks after being left alone for only a couple minutes mid game, and that is SUPER frustrating to play against, and that's assuming you did shut him down, which can be hard, but is certainly do-able with the right champs.

Add to that a super burst squishy meta, and a champ that can build 95% defense, and you can see where it just compounds the problem. He doesn't need to build enough offense to kill squishies, his stacks do that, meaning his defense is going to get where it needs to be that much quicker.

As far as does he win vs lose. I think that's pretty close to balanced, he's pretty strong at lower tier games where I play, but I think that falls off in more organized ranks. So it's not so much does he win or lose as he is just really frustrating to deal with from minute 1, to the nexus exploding.

Of course, there are other additions to that, he has so much backup styles of play, he kills turrets super fast making him an amazing objective killer, he is super strong 1v1 making him an extreme split push threat on top of that, so even when losing he can be really difficult to manage.

All in, again it's just a frustration to play against more than "is he overloaded." People are forced to play his game instead of theirs, the game becomes about "manage the nasus or else" and that's not fun for anyone.

If you add that to a full AD opponent (for example) stacking armor is GG, that's on the team that did it though, which sadly seems to be pretty common. I'm surprised we don't see more off main tanks like Rammus and Malphite, or even bruisers in this meta just to counter these things. I definitely hate when I get early pick (who doesn't) but especially so when my team stacks all 1 damage type and I had no way to prevent it.

Just my 2 cents.

PhieldworkerFeb 12, 20192 votes

Smashed him with Jax.

Wínters DawnFeb 12, 20191 votes

Pick Darius. Bully him off his minions gg

PopcornBunniFeb 12, 20191 votes

He has no way to deal with crowd control. Even more so than other champions that have this as their main weakness.

Tryndamere can delay his ult and still cast it while cc'd to wait for his opponents to spend their cc early

MasterYi can Q on reaction to most CC in the game, including snapcast targetted cc

Garen DrMundo and other juggernauts have insane amounts of tenacity to shrug off anything but knockup chaind.

Illaoi and others still are CC immune during a well-timed ult or other spell in some cases

But Nasus 's only cc resistance is the innate universal tenacity available to every other character. So more than just about any other character, he falls hard to CC and followups.

Unless he has a Morgana backing him, then you're fucked.

nelogisFeb 12, 20191 votes

With an adequate kit, he is almost un-kite-able

He has 1 slow Literally nothing else other than a slow

Get Swifties if it bothers you that much or Mercs or even a QSS if it is REALLY that much of a problem to run away from a guy with a slow as his only cc and no other gap closer whatsoever.

He has AoE wave control

No he doesn't, not a good one at least until he maxed his AOE

That shit deals no damage when you max Q

He has tremendous damage on turrets

Almost like he is designed to splitpush

He has innate armor penetration

Like almost any other juggernaut, he has tools to deal with tanky targets since he can't afford to buy armor pen

He has an incredibly powerful slow

You already mentioned that with point 1

He is very tanky and builds up the necessary damage from farm alone, making his farm one of the most gold efficient in the whole game

Yes and for that he hits like a wet noodle in the early game

Not only that but he currently ramps up pretty fast making so the late game argument falls

Doesn't make his early not any better or that he can't get to anything that isn't a straight up 1 v 1, a situation which you should avoid getting into Nasus like any other splitpusher.

You aren't supose to 1 v 1 him when he hits his powerspike.

MoonscourgeFeb 12, 20191 votes

The existence of armor and kiting as well as CC.

He has no gapcloser and a SINGLE TARGET slow is meaningless against 5 people.

130xApr 7, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RVNdPNsa,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-02-12T13:56:20.422+0000)

The existence of armor and kiting as well as CC.

He has no gapcloser and a SINGLE TARGET slow is meaningless against 5 people.

Flash and passive super speed...