Yummi has no real counterplay when tethered to a juggernaut

GripaAviara·Sep 1, 2019·64 votes·18,601 views

With Soraka, albeit annoying also, you can focus, you can dodge. With Yummi, you can't.

She jumps on a champion, get's a mouse controlling 'skillshot' that is nearly undodgeable low range and heals like crazy without literary having any opening as a champion.

Sure it's incredibly dependent on the team. That's that champion's only weak point which can be mitigated with a duo.

What makes her even more broken is that if a juggernaut is slightly ahead and a tanky build, the game is 90% lost as he gets to be unkillable

138 Comments

AnateraSep 1, 201925 votes

I wish they'd just give Yuumi SOME kind of weakness. And no, low health isn't a weakness when you're untargetable anyway.

I Like TeemoSep 1, 20197 votes

its a huge weakness if you by some act of stupidity start tanking a tower, but only if you do that

JuiceBoxPSep 2, 201923 votes

Hoping someone will fuck up is no counterplay

RagnaveilSep 2, 20193 votes

Aka the same "counterplay" that is the last remaining in Riven, Jax, and Trynd.

boricCentaur1Sep 2, 20194 votes

Ummmm how is there not counter play? Maybe you should learn what counter play is.

AnateraSep 2, 20196 votes

[deleted]

boricCentaur1Sep 2, 20193 votes

Counter play and weakness are the same thing. It really shows you are just wrong since you are avoiding it.

The KombinatorSep 2, 20191 votes

Counterplay is mostly term used for lane phase. Which Yuumi has.

Weakness is in general a way to counter something. It includes TEAMFIGHTS.

Yuumi has counterplay. Bring all-in+ignite, and play agressive as hell. In early you can easily oneshot her carry, and her.

Yuumi has no special weakness. She is untargetable, invulnerable, and immune to all CC. A good Yuumi will go nearly full efficiency in teamfight without giving a chance to catch her. Once all teammates down, then you can target her too. Once teamfights roll out Yuumi is not bound to be on the ADC. She can be on a frontliner. The same 200 health worth much more for a champ, that can reduce incoming damage by 60%, than on a champ with 10%.

You can't do the same with a Janna. Or a Soraka. Or a Lulu. You go into the middle healing the tank, and decent enemies will just focus on you. Then you can use spells for self protect which has similar, or less worth, than on ADC, or a lot less, than on tanks.

boricCentaur1Sep 2, 20192 votes

Ummm no counter applies to every part of the game. I give examples of when you use counter play and weakness in a sentence they mean the same.

Like your argument also makes no sense in a team fight you will never try to kill a support that is pointless maybe if you have no anti vs raka but yummi heal is not close to raka heal. Most supports would rather die then the carry.

Also WHY DID YOU REPLY TO ME TWO TIMES? Like you are lot of similar things in both posts.

HoldMyPlankSep 2, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I wish they'd just give Yuumi SOME kind of weakness. And no, low health isn't a weakness when you're untargetable anyway.

they should def increase the cd of her W when she splits at the wrong time

SucctionSep 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

they should def increase the cd of her W when she splits at the wrong time

And then when the enemy engages on you and you have

No peel or cc No heal or shield or any utility No mobility No damage

What do you plan to do? Instantly lose.

HoldMyPlankSep 3, 20192 votes

What are you talking about? If Yuumi screws up she should be punished. You named all the weaknesses Yuumi is **supposed to have **. However, her kit is too forgiving when she detaches.

The correct way to nerf would either be to have Yuumi's W go on cooldown if her current host is slain(this would create a risk for staying on the host in a dire scenario), or to have the cooldown raised significantly in general.

SucctionSep 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What are you talking about? If Yuumi screws up she should be punished. You named all the weaknesses Yuumi is **supposed to have **. However, her kit is too forgiving when she detaches.

The correct way to nerf would either be to have Yuumi's W go on cooldown if her current host is slain(this would create a risk for staying on the host in a dire scenario), or to have the cooldown raised significantly in general.

Mmm I actually seem have to replied to the wrong comment.

I also think Yuumi has a while host of problems and agree with you entirely. I must've clicked the wrong comment, sorry.

RitrozarkSep 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I wish they'd just give Yuumi SOME kind of weakness. And no, low health isn't a weakness when you're untargetable anyway.

The only time I ever really saw that come up was when a Yuumi ate a Thresh hook during a lv1 invade. Other than that it only comes up when all her teamates in the area are dead and by that point most enchanters can't do much anyways, doesnt matter if they have a low base health or not.

KFCeytronSep 1, 201921 votes

I spectated a Yuumi+Garen bot lane in Challenger today. It was rather disgusting.

Yuumi brings the exact problems people were worried she would. She should be reverted to her release stats.

JuiceBoxPSep 2, 201919 votes

Yuumi is the epitome of bad fucking champion design

musixxalSep 1, 201911 votes

no no no, the boards insists my yuumi and jax combo is fake news so i don't buy this sir, sorry. do you have footage by chance? if not it probably didn't happen and you need to "git gud" this was my prescription from the boards. what was that thing they said...something about her win rate...hmmm?

PermaJinxedSep 2, 20199 votes

Yuumi should just split damage and healing with her host...... If you poke out Garen... Yuumi should take damage while attached... And the heal should be split between herself and her host. This would cause champions she's attached to to be slightly tankier against burst but have less sustain... And she couldn't just perma-sit on a juggernaut without dying herself.

MrFawknSunshineSep 1, 20197 votes

focus the adc ? if yummi is attached to another champ go ham on the adc

Divin1tySep 2, 201937 votes

{quoted}

focus the adc ? if yummi is attached to another champ go ham on the adc

Oh right. Because the 0/3 ADC is the problem and not the fed Irelia with an extra Cat Item, that gives Stats, infinite Sustain, an opening and kills the entire team.

Heckin SupportSep 2, 201913 votes

In my time of playing Yuumi, more times than not, you're not gonna have a "fed irelia" to be able to leech onto. She's the most team dependant support in the entire game. The amount of time I've been "useless" due to no good teammates to latch onto is just as prevalent if nore more prevalent than having a good teammate to latch onto.

Also if you're complaining about a champion like Irelia being hard to kill, and on top of that, there's a Yuumi. Maybe it's not Yuumi, but the champion she's attached to.

The KombinatorSep 2, 20192 votes

So is every enchanter in the game. You can be the best Soraka, Janna, or Lulu in the world you not gona solo carry. You need someone worth protecting.

The difference is, that most Enchanter are not tanky. They can't afford to rush in protecting the tank without risking a near instant death. The same heal/shield worths a lot less on an ADC, than a tank. Yuumi has no such limitation.

IfnethSep 2, 20193 votes

The best Raka, Janna, or Lulu world is also almost certainly a Masters+ player who could use just the fundamentals to force lane kills, get fed, and snowball their utility until it turned even bad plays into good ones.

The KombinatorSep 2, 20191 votes

You are right though. I know, because i main Raka, and when i went from west to east, then it felt like i play as a master+ among the common. Ranked put me into silver bottom, or bronze. In like 2 weeks i reached gold, but man. In that time i won a lot of games. Made enemies cry with all those plays, and heals. Sure total braindead, and afkers are uncarriable, but hey.

Those kind of players can't be carried by anything since tank rework.

However now in gold2, and 1. I can see the enemies starting to counter. More, and more people buys heal reduction, and more and more people starts focusing me in teamfights. You can't do such to Yuumi. You can't focus her. Heal reduction helps, but not as much as against Raka. Since unlike Raka. Yuumi can heal tanks. The reason it is considered such a cancer champ is not her ability to protect adc. But her ability to work in synergy with juggernauts.

What is the juggernauts' weakness? Mobility. What Yuumi does? Slows/root enemy, and gives speed. Technically erasing the juggernauts' primary weakness. Okay let's focus them? Oh wait they got some offtankiness, and with Yuumi they are even more tanky.

IfnethSep 2, 20194 votes

Oh, I see. She does to Juggs what regular enchanters do to ADCs but cannot be popped for it.

The KombinatorSep 2, 20192 votes

Exactly. Try to protect a frontliner as Soraka, Janna, or Lulu. Your reward will be a near instant death.

WoonStruckSep 4, 20191 votes

Almost any situation Yuumi would fail in, other supports would fail as well.

Take that into perspective.

Its not a specific weakness of hers if every enchanter support shares it. That just makes her better than those who share her weakness.

Starcraft243verSep 2, 20193 votes

If yumi never detach to get her autos and shields she's just half a champion.

Charmy BirdSep 2, 20197 votes

We had an enemy hecarim in a game and he was the kill collector type of jungler, I was veigar mod fairly confident because as a kill collector jungle he'll eventually fall off and I'll out scale him while he left his whole team without kills but he had a yuumi in his team who would never leave him and he'd go 4v1 1 shot all of us and leave with full hp because yuumi doesn't know the concept of cool downs I don't know why such a champion is allowed to even exist. Imo yuumi and Soraka have very very strong heals that should definitely be nerfed at soem degree because they're straight up unfair to play against.

IllabetheSep 2, 20192 votes

Yuumi's Heal has a MASSIVE cooldown. The highest of any heal other than Soraka's Ult in the GAME. And it's WEAK.

You should be asking : Why does Predator Hecarim exist? Why does he scale of movement speed yet no one on our team bought slows? Why did we not invest in Armor?

P.S. Aparrently you don't know how Hecarim works if you think him coming out full health is Yuumi's fault;

Spirit of Dread Cost: 50/60/70/80/90 Mana Range: 575

Hecarim deals magic damage to nearby enemies for a short duration. Hecarim gains Health equal to a percentage of any damage those enemies suffer.

Hecarim deals 80/120/160/200/240 (+80% Ability Power) magic damage over 4 seconds to all nearby enemies. Hecarim is healed for 30% of the damage these enemies take from any source. Hecarim cannot heal more than 90/120/150/180/210 Health from minions or monsters.

In other words, he healed by using Spirit of Dread, while Yuumi Ulted you, while he did his own damage to you. It wasn't her heals. It was her Ult, and His Ult.

Charmy BirdSep 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yuumi's Heal has a MASSIVE cooldown. The highest of any heal other than Soraka's Ult in the GAME. And it's WEAK.

You should be asking : Why does Predator Hecarim exist? Why does he scale of movement speed yet no one on our team bought slows? Why did we not invest in Armor?

P.S. Aparrently you don't know how Hecarim works if you think him coming out full health is Yuumi's fault;

Spirit of Dread Cost: 50/60/70/80/90 Mana Range: 575

Hecarim deals magic damage to nearby enemies for a short duration. Hecarim gains Health equal to a percentage of any damage those enemies suffer.

Hecarim deals 80/120/160/200/240 (+80% Ability Power) magic damage over 4 seconds to all nearby enemies. Hecarim is healed for 30% of the damage these enemies take from any source. Hecarim cannot heal more than 90/120/150/180/210 Health from minions or monsters.

In other words, he healed by using Spirit of Dread, while Yuumi Ulted you, while he did his own damage to you. It wasn't her heals. It was her Ult, and His Ult.

Are u playing another game? Cuz what ure saying makes no sense. So you're saying that hecas w out heals yuumis e?yuumi has been considered op because her heal is insane

IllabetheSep 3, 20191 votes

In an average game, Yuumi only heals 5500-11000. No. It's not OP, has an 18 second static cooldown, is maxed LAST, and is used FAR MORE for its movement speed than its heal.

If it was OP, she wouldn't be a 39-43% win rate champ.

Charmy BirdSep 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

In an average game, Yuumi only heals 5500-11000. No. It's not OP, has an 18 second static cooldown, is maxed LAST, and is used FAR MORE for its movement speed than its heal.

If it was OP, she wouldn't be a 39-43% win rate champ.

Don't use win rates as evidence because akali is below 50% and is still batshit broken that keeps getting nerf after nerf, same for sylas. Yuumi and Soraka are the strongest healers in the game with incredibly unfair healer but at least Soraka can be focused u liek yuumi who attaches on a bruiser and perma heals him and stays alive

IllabetheSep 3, 20191 votes

The difference between the arguments of Akali vs Yuumi is that Akali is a technically challenging champion to play/master. Yuumi isn't.

Nami is a far stronger healer by FAR. Sona is a stronger healer once itemized. Even Rakan when he can hit Q's is a stronger healer than Yuumi.

Her heal gets up to 2 charges and then it's out of the fight. No such thing as Perma Heal. And if she used it as a move speed buff, that's one heal down.

Charmy BirdSep 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The difference between the arguments of Akali vs Yuumi is that Akali is a technically challenging champion to play/master. Yuumi isn't.

Nami is a far stronger healer by FAR. Sona is a stronger healer once itemized. Even Rakan when he can hit Q's is a stronger healer than Yuumi.

Her heal gets up to 2 charges and then it's out of the fight. No such thing as Perma Heal. And if she used it as a move speed buff, that's one heal down.

There's no way you're serious, ure either trolling or have no idea about the game. I'm a rakan main and his heal is in no way stronger than yuumis. I recommend you to play the game more before discussing about it.

Crescent DuskSep 2, 20196 votes

You clearly haven't played a competent yuumi+caitlyn if you think juggernauts are the problem.

Way too many adc's have self peel or too much lifedrain plus GA for how much damage they do.

tabis+thornmail+deadmans+GA and you still get melted in less than 6 seconds by one, what's the point of tank items.

BackdoorPrincessSep 2, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tosU2Ayz,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-09-02T01:06:54.584+0000)

You clearly haven't played a competent yuumi+caitlyn if you think juggernauts are the problem.

Way too many adc's have self peel or too much lifedrain plus GA for how much damage they do.

tabis+thornmail+deadmans+GA and you still get melted in less than 6 seconds by one, what's the point of tank items.

Yeah but again, unless it's an ulting vayne most of them can still get 1 combo assassin'd (except kai after getting her AS evolve possibly), it just involves some planning and teamwork (fuk). A juggernaut was designed with not being able to stick, generally has good sustain and the some kind of self mitigation, but huge numbers if they pop off. And yeah, Yuumi attached to pretty much any of those is a death sentence, Especially if Yuumi ults before they grab (Darius Morde), AAtrox gets bonus healing and certainly appreciates MS and AD to heal off of, Illaoi can tank more as she's ulting or grabbed someone so they echo more damage, Shyv Urg and Nasus all really appreciate the speed as well (if you haven't seen a ghosting nasus with a Yuumi please dont look it up, avoid the viietnam flashbacks).

Those are just the juggernauts

And then there's jax, and fiora, who just likes stats in general. And then there's voli, who generally just builds health and tank, who now suddenly has more MS and some damage on him (probably with attack speed thanks ardent), who just ate your ADC at 800 hp killing them. The champ is a terrible design, and even if you have it so she splits damage it would still be terribly designed, she currently has the same problem as pyke, as being too safe in too many ways, while still providing a shitload of utility even if she fucks up

Crescent DuskSep 2, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but again, unless it's an ulting vayne most of them can still get 1 combo assassin'd (except kai after getting her AS evolve possibly), it just involves some planning and teamwork (fuk). A juggernaut was designed with not being able to stick, generally has good sustain and the some kind of self mitigation, but huge numbers if they pop off. And yeah, Yuumi attached to pretty much any of those is a death sentence, Especially if Yuumi ults before they grab (Darius Morde), AAtrox gets bonus healing and certainly appreciates MS and AD to heal off of, Illaoi can tank more as she's ulting or grabbed someone so they echo more damage, Shyv Urg and Nasus all really appreciate the speed as well (if you haven't seen a ghosting nasus with a Yuumi please dont look it up, avoid the viietnam flashbacks).

Those are just the juggernauts

And then there's jax, and fiora, who just likes stats in general. And then there's voli, who generally just builds health and tank, who now suddenly has more MS and some damage on him (probably with attack speed thanks ardent), who just ate your ADC at 800 hp killing them. The champ is a terrible design, and even if you have it so she splits damage it would still be terribly designed, she currently has the same problem as pyke, as being too safe in too many ways, while still providing a shitload of utility even if she fucks up

1 combo assassin doesn't even happen when you get some armor and the sheer amount of cc and shields some supports have. And by the time it gets to GA it doesn't matter because unless it's Zed or Akali (who are busted) that assassin goes in, gets stunend and blown up, and the ADC pops back up and immediately is healed to full.

It's fairly telling why LCS is featuring so few assassins short of Akali. ADC's with a tank/cc support and a tank/CC jungler are ridiculously hard to punish, so the fight ends up being a damage race for which adc melts the frontline first so that his team cleans up.

SH AzykanSep 2, 20191 votes

Zed Akali Qiyana Pyke Nocturne are all being picked globally? qiyana and akali are just the only 2 being first picked/blind picked. Assassins should be used to punish a weakness in a comp, which puts them for the most part exactly where they should be, in solo queue. Some assassins popping up in pro play is just showing they have enough tools to shore up the normal weakness of picking an asssassin vs coordinated play.

Crescent DuskSep 2, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cry4 Azykan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tosU2Ayz,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-02T18:50:35.165+0000)

are all being picked globally? qiyana and akali are just the only 2 being first picked/blind picked. Assassins should be used to punish a weakness in a comp, which puts them for the most part exactly where they should be, in solo queue. Some assassins popping up in pro play is just showing they have enough tools to shore up the normal weakness of picking an asssassin vs coordinated play.

Oh, please, so assassins ought to be niche picks while mages ought to be the generalist standard? What a fucking arbitrary role you've assigned and expect me to swallow down.

SH AzykanSep 2, 20193 votes

no, in PRO they should be niche, an assassin should thrive in an environment that can lack coordination like solo queue. Which is why people can play talon all the way up to challenger but you never see him in pro.

Assassins are perfectly viable in solo queue. And a few are viable in pro. their balance as a class is fine right now. A few outliers, like qiyana, are understandable, but as a class they are seen at all levels of play. They don't need buffs.

IllabetheSep 2, 20191 votes

Try something called Randuin's and that Caitlyn will take 20 shots to kill you instead of 4.....

But ofc most players don't even know what Randuin's is anymore and never buy it because it takes an item slot, and isn't offensive.

Crescent DuskSep 2, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Try something called Randuin's and that Caitlyn will take 20 shots to kill you instead of 4.....

But ofc most players don't even know what Randuin's is anymore and never buy it because it takes an item slot, and isn't offensive.

Build it all the time against Yasuo, tryndamere, and draven, so I don't know what you're talking about. The reason I built those other items is that you need them to have the mobility to even get through all the self peel (which randuin won't give you when you can't even get close enough to land the slow) and the GA is there because no other item is better for soaking burst and punishing people for blowing all their cd's on you while the rest of your team rushes them (warwick will often be the initiator, so you tend to absorb all the team's burst). Then there's the fact Warwick needs his jungle item, so one slot, and then the titanic hydra path so he can have any healthy jungle clear let alone wavepush at all to side split because otherwise you are among the worst waveclear and jungle clearing champs in the game.

2 offensive items, yet somehow here you are accusing me of only caring about offensive items when the rest of my items are defensive.

IllabetheSep 2, 20191 votes

You failed to mention Thornmail and why you chose it over Randuin's.

Randuin;s soaks FAR more damage than a thornmail..... which is an offensive defensive item, when the opponent is a crit build.

Crescent DuskSep 2, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You failed to mention Thornmail and why you chose it over Randuin's.

Randuin;s soaks FAR more damage than a thornmail..... which is an offensive defensive item, when the opponent is a crit build.

Because my fucking enemy jungler and top lanes were a fiora and volibear respectively, and the thornmail also reduces the healing yuumi has on a caitlyn. it's pretty fucking obvious, especially since nobody else in this fucking game likes building GW so most of the time i'm the only one building it.

IllabetheSep 2, 20192 votes

So .... do you care more about survivability or more about the being the one that "Might" Apply Grievous wounds?

Everything is supposed to have a tradeoff. All around builds that try to counter everyone tend to fail far more than builds that counter the majority of everyone.

Crescent DuskSep 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So .... do you care more about survivability or more about the being the one that "Might" Apply Grievous wounds?

Everything is supposed to have a tradeoff. All around builds that try to counter everyone tend to fail far more than builds that counter the majority of everyone.

I'm the lone tank in my comp. the rest of their team has a truckload of healing (which means none of them die without gw). but sure, build randuin just to counter the adc instead of thornmail to deal with a voli trying to contest and invade me and shut down the fiora in lane.

i don't know why i'm arguing with you by this point, all you offer is gotchas.

IllabetheSep 3, 20191 votes

Did you ever consider that your team constructed a poor team if you were the only tank as Warwick, and that you couldn't properly tank or build correct Warwick items because their team was too diverse? Voli is a far different kit than Caitlyn, Fiora, etc.

Warwick is meant to stack some on hit abilities on R, and tank by being offensive, not by building literal tank. If your team forced you to go full tank, they made you underperform.

item 3091

Crescent DuskSep 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Did you ever consider that your team constructed a poor team if you were the only tank as Warwick, and that you couldn't properly tank or build correct Warwick items because their team was too diverse? Voli is a far different kit than Caitlyn, Fiora, etc.

Warwick is meant to stack some on hit abilities on R, and tank by being offensive, not by building literal tank. If your team forced you to go full tank, they made you underperform.

It's almost like one has no fucking control at all over what some assholes pick as their champs.

And no, wit's end is terrible on warwick since you are sinking a ton of gold into an item whose only value happens if your R somehow isn't interrupted during a teamfight or QSS'd out (the obvious counter that most people don't take rather fortunately).

Half the time i get assholes trying to cheese lanes with ranged top champ picks and that only fucks us late game when we have no frontline. Tank supports are pretty rare as well, everybody wants to play enchantresses or pyke, so that usually leaves me as the tank.