Can you please nerf twitch already Riot?

GripaAviara·Oct 16, 2017·73 votes·9,749 views

For a hyper carry he has such a strong early game ....

Also AOE adcs? The fucker give 2 crits in a row and decimates a team from a screen away with invisibility to make him hard to spot. Is that normal Riot?

51 Comments

RiotNot SurrenderingOct 17, 201724 votes

Personally, I think live Twitch indexes a bit too hard into teamfight power and not enough into his assassination/map control playstyle, though arguably both are quite frustrating to play against.

To me though, Twitch's winrate is not extremely alarming as a hyperscaling carry with stealth which biases towards solo queue and he has pretty much sat at this winrate for almost the last 2 years.

Having said that, there are things about this game state that are different than previous years (eg. Ardent is better on him and probably more frustrating than most other champs).

As a result, we have opted not to nerf him for the last while.

I'm personally not sure how much of this is Twitch is the best ADC vs "an ADC is the best ADC and here's the problem with them" - a lot of ADC's have been this at various points in time while being balanced for pro, eg. Ashe does too much damage while having too much utility, Caitlyn does too much damage while being too safe, Draven is too snowbally, Sivir engage is unbeatable, etc.

So my earlier thoughts about a hyperscaling stealth ADC being top winrate is not surprising to me, because this is a good combination of traits to succeed in solo queue. (Though it's possible he is allowed to be the best, but not by this much).

GayFluffyUnicornOct 17, 201729 votes

Wait: An hypercarry (lategame) who has had an average winrate from 52-60% from dia-master this entire season is not alarming? Are u actually kidding? 30% banrate and 30% pickrate is not alarming? Sorry its now 23% pickrate, all just mains playing him i guess. Mains reach an astonishing 60% winrate on him. A champ far harder to master than him like GP only grants 55% winrate.That's a winrate only champs like GP, asol and azir should achieve (+- a few other hard to master champs)

Yeah exactly, it's soloQ you might think that his winrate is higher in low elo considering games last way longer and people have less vision and are more chaotic but a hint: it isn't. Over the last few months on op.gg his winrate rose with elo can't say how it is now but the hard on you seem to have for twitch over at rito HQ actually confuses me. And no ardent is NOT the issue he had these stats during lethality meta as well albeit in the jungle his winrate was higher but ever since caitlyn went from challenger to b tier he had this winrate on bot way before ardent became a thing. Idk i don't have any words left how hard you try to not have to nerf twitch. Twitch is literally all three combined: too much dmg in AOE, too safe in lane and outside of it, too snowbally.

But oh well, can't wait for the nerf hammer on GP whenever he gets over 50% winrate on average because you know a lategame carry in snowbally metas shouldn't be so strong on average, am i right? Not biased at all right? Thank god he is at 50% currently.

And yes i am sorry but i'm really salty seeing how this rat just gets ignored and excused with ridiculous claims if we hold you to your standards meaning: reasoning behind nerfing certain champs over the years and these standards don't seem to apply to twitch

statelesskillerOct 17, 20172 votes

i have a crisp 58% winrate on gp thank you very much (had 60% last season hnnnnnnnnnnnnHNNNNNNNNNNN)

not but its actually stupid how twitch does gangplanks job but better AOE CRITS ACROSS A ENTIRE TEAM in quick succession mind you much safer easier and more reliable

RocketRelmOct 17, 20171 votes

Sorry it's just 23% now, all mains playing him I guess.

You jest, but at this point they probably are mains.

NefasOct 17, 20179 votes

Honestly, most of your posts just leave me more and more frustrated about balance and the future. It so often reads as "You all might not like the state of [x] but I don't think its a real issue/it is too complex to fix anyway and all of your solutions will just bring their own problems so deal". Not much in the way of solutions, optimism, or empathy.

yay nibbersOct 17, 20174 votes

Their posts steam me up something good. It feels like in all those paragraphs they type out they don't actually say anything substantial. Some of them feel downright condescending too.

CosnirakOct 17, 201712 votes

To me though, Twitch's winrate is not extremely alarming as a hyperscaling carry with stealth which biases towards solo queue and he has pretty much sat at this winrate for almost the last 2 years.

That's the problem. All of it. The win rate, how long he's had it, that it isn't alarming, that he's a hyperscaling carry with stealth, that him biasing towards solo queue somehow makes it better...

I am at a loss for words. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Xion The XIVOct 17, 201710 votes

Remember when other champions had 55% win rate and they were nerfed. Remember how NONE of them were ADCs? I'm saddened that in one Game A SINGLE FUCKING GAME. Olaf can 1v3 and the next patch he is gutted to the point of worthless. Yet Twitch can melt EVERYONE from max range and it's like, "Oh well he is balanced it's the Ardent that is the problem".

Daze CloverOct 31, 20171 votes

DON'T you DARE talk about RIOT this way! You NEED to GO see the DOCTOR and GET the TILT PROOF MEDICATION?

Shadow HazardOct 17, 20171 votes

Not only that twitch is the only hyperscaler that can compete with kog in the late game. If twitch gets nerfed then kog has to also.

TheCheekySneakOct 17, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=svsAKkFw,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-10-17T01:07:41.351+0000)

Personally, I think live Twitch indexes a bit too hard into teamfight power and not enough into his assassination/map control playstyle, though arguably both are quite frustrating to play against.

To me though, Twitch's winrate is not extremely alarming as a hyperscaling carry with stealth which biases towards solo queue and he has pretty much sat at this winrate for almost the last 2 years.

Having said that, there are things about this game state that are different than previous years (eg. Ardent is better on him and probably more frustrating than most other champs).

As a result, we have opted not to nerf him for the last while.

I'm personally not sure how much of this is Twitch is the best ADC vs "an ADC is the best ADC and here's the problem with them" - a lot of ADC's have been this at various points in time while being balanced for pro, eg. Ashe does too much damage while having too much utility, Caitlyn does too much damage while being too safe, Draven is too snowbally, Sivir engage is unbeatable, etc.

So my earlier thoughts about a hyperscaling stealth ADC being top winrate is not surprising to me, because this is a good combination of traits to succeed in solo queue. (Though it's possible he is allowed to be the best, but not by this much).

Okay so let me get this straight. It's perfectly acceptable for a Twitch to dominate as much as he is now because he's a solo q predator who scales incredibly well with massive long ranged AOE damage... However Shaco, another solo q nightmare who lacks both range and AOE gets beaten with the nerf stick the second he looks out of line?

I mean come on, both of their play patterns are toxic to an extent but while Shaco had to get reworked, then nerfed, then nerfed AGAIN because he was bursting people from stealth too consistently, Twitch gets to skirt by consequence free while doing much the same but from farther away and to multiple people at once? That's some seriously flawed logic.

Nanuk PihoqahiakOct 17, 20171 votes

His Q is better than Rengar's ultimate lol.

Regardless, it's kind of sad that we're at a point where people are picking hypercarries when game times are typically shorter. That's kind of backwards design.

LuciferOct 17, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=svsAKkFw,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-10-17T01:07:41.351+0000)

Personally, I think live Twitch indexes a bit too hard into teamfight power and not enough into his assassination/map control playstyle, though arguably both are quite frustrating to play against.

To me though, Twitch's winrate is not extremely alarming as a hyperscaling carry with stealth which biases towards solo queue and he has pretty much sat at this winrate for almost the last 2 years.

Having said that, there are things about this game state that are different than previous years (eg. Ardent is better on him and probably more frustrating than most other champs).

As a result, we have opted not to nerf him for the last while.

I'm personally not sure how much of this is Twitch is the best ADC vs "an ADC is the best ADC and here's the problem with them" - a lot of ADC's have been this at various points in time while being balanced for pro, eg. Ashe does too much damage while having too much utility, Caitlyn does too much damage while being too safe, Draven is too snowbally, Sivir engage is unbeatable, etc.

So my earlier thoughts about a hyperscaling stealth ADC being top winrate is not surprising to me, because this is a good combination of traits to succeed in solo queue. (Though it's possible he is allowed to be the best, but not by this much).

Are you actually kidding? A hyper carry with stealth one shotting entire teams doesn't alarm you? How is that ANY different than old Evelynn, other than that he is an ADC? The bias is nuts lately. He is becoming permanent ban status in high diamond since the balance team refuses to actually do anything to him.

PoskeOct 17, 20171 votes

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Confirmed some LCS team payed Riot not to nerf twitch

MordepoolOct 17, 20172 votes

Perhaps it's about time you changed your perspective

KloqdqOct 17, 20173 votes

I know a lot of people disagree but I mainly want to touch on your first point.

I think live Twitch indexes a bit too hard into teamfight power and not enough into his assassination/map control playstyle, though arguably both are quite frustrating to play against.

This. This right here is the problem. He has one aspect that is and always has been powerful and then you added another element which is equally powerful. This is the reason he is so freaking powerful.

Decide on one.

Give him one job, not all of them.

BubbaVOct 17, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=svsAKkFw,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-10-17T01:07:41.351+0000)

Personally, I think live Twitch indexes a bit too hard into teamfight power and not enough into his assassination/map control playstyle, though arguably both are quite frustrating to play against.

To me though, Twitch's winrate is not extremely alarming as a hyperscaling carry with stealth which biases towards solo queue and he has pretty much sat at this winrate for almost the last 2 years.

Having said that, there are things about this game state that are different than previous years (eg. Ardent is better on him and probably more frustrating than most other champs).

As a result, we have opted not to nerf him for the last while.

I'm personally not sure how much of this is Twitch is the best ADC vs "an ADC is the best ADC and here's the problem with them" - a lot of ADC's have been this at various points in time while being balanced for pro, eg. Ashe does too much damage while having too much utility, Caitlyn does too much damage while being too safe, Draven is too snowbally, Sivir engage is unbeatable, etc.

So my earlier thoughts about a hyperscaling stealth ADC being top winrate is not surprising to me, because this is a good combination of traits to succeed in solo queue. (Though it's possible he is allowed to be the best, but not by this much).

i like how all of your comments are getting downvoted, you're always wrong

Master Yi BotOct 17, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=svsAKkFw,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-10-17T01:07:41.351+0000)

Personally, I think live Twitch indexes a bit too hard into teamfight power and not enough into his assassination/map control playstyle, though arguably both are quite frustrating to play against.

To me though, Twitch's winrate is not extremely alarming as a hyperscaling carry with stealth which biases towards solo queue and he has pretty much sat at this winrate for almost the last 2 years.

Having said that, there are things about this game state that are different than previous years (eg. Ardent is better on him and probably more frustrating than most other champs).

As a result, we have opted not to nerf him for the last while.

I'm personally not sure how much of this is Twitch is the best ADC vs "an ADC is the best ADC and here's the problem with them" - a lot of ADC's have been this at various points in time while being balanced for pro, eg. Ashe does too much damage while having too much utility, Caitlyn does too much damage while being too safe, Draven is too snowbally, Sivir engage is unbeatable, etc.

So my earlier thoughts about a hyperscaling stealth ADC being top winrate is not surprising to me, because this is a good combination of traits to succeed in solo queue. (Though it's possible he is allowed to be the best, but not by this much).

If you think Twitch is not that strong then you suck, sorry. Remind me of old Rengar but at least Rengar was melee. I had a look at your match history you actually had decent KDA, just because you got caught or some how lost the game doesn't mean Twitch is weak.

Every balance team nerf/buff the champion based on how they feel while playing him and it's wrong.

Solidair3Oct 17, 20171 votes

I mean I get what you mean, but isn't stealth w/ ms, and an AS buff at end mixed with his crazy team damage potential a bit much? You can say it's good for soloQ, but I really don't think there is a place it's not good. It's just really good.

It's hard to stop him (a seemingly intentional design) if he can kill you (and two other members of your team) as soon as he leaves stealth.

The only counterplay is control wards and you can only have 5 max out at any given point, and likely not at all in the places where you need them or 5 at all for that matter, as good as that would be.

This is a problem Twitch has had for a long time, long before ardent censer became a thing that people cared about.

Sun Wu RyuumokuOct 17, 20172 votes

To me though, Twitch's winrate is not extremely alarming as a hyperscaling carry

hum Hyper carries are too strong atm... Its weird in meta where most game are decided before 15 by your bot lane.

The Great DivideOct 16, 201723 votes

As a fairly avid Twitch player - his most balanced phase was actually before the stealth rework/mini rework in patch 6.22. This was the patch they altered his kit, and not in a healthy way.

First, they gave his w a persistant slow area, which gives him zoning (why? he didn't need it) and a much easier time in laning (giving him semi-waveclear that he never had before). They did this because they thought nerfing his stealth to camouflage would need compensation but...

HIs stealth is in many ways is better. They decreased the activation time at all points, increased the duration by a ton, and gave him movement speed towards champions. That's a lot, when his stealth functions almost the same. (The only difference now is a detection radius, that, as an ADC, almost never is a problem. Only in clutch situations was old stealth a savior, and you still had to wait 4.5 seconds of being clobbered to get into it, not to mention pink wards as a counter).

All in all, they compensated twitch too heavily for what they thought making his stealth camouflage would need. HIs laning phase no longer is as miserable with his w changes, and his stealth duration and ease of entry means he's a lot harder to both keep track of and also lock down.

I wish we could revert him to pre 6.22, but that would be hard as stealth mechanics are different now. Idk, but I will say as a main that he has it a little bit too easy. It's just I think we're all stumped on what to nerf.

(Although I wouldn't say he has "such a strong early game." Like he's not as miserable as before, but that statement is just wrong)

JoeMGOct 16, 20171 votes

I remember that. That was back when you picked Twitch knowing you'd have a rough early game but would be able to compensate with probably the strongest late game for an adc.

DarkRitualOct 17, 20171 votes

Losing the attack speed boost coming out of stealth would help a bit. Perhaps some combination of nerfing that and the movespeed boost towards enemies in stealth. Both of these seem like extraneous power when together on his stealth ability. Losing the AS boost would make it take a little longer to teamwipe out of stealth, and would also make his kill threat in laning phase worse (which I don't see being an issue with how strong he currently is in lane).

The Great DivideOct 17, 20171 votes

That's actually a pretty good change - I like it.

But again... he's not strong in lane. Like at all. From playing many different adcs he's definitely not good (and if he is, it's completely on the support). I get that he's a huge pain, but his lane phase is not the problem. The only champs who may have it worse are vayne/kogmaw. People need to stop saying his early is so strong; it doesn't help their argument cause then it just looks like unabashed whining.

KloqdqOct 17, 20172 votes

I personally wish they played up his Assassin nature with the stealth elements and pushed those elements further but at the cost of his inherent team fighting power via his ultimate.

I think as a marksman, we already have enough team fighting gods like Xayah for example. Twitch bringing in assassin power makes him stand out a lot more from others in the class. What would you think of doing that?

The Great DivideOct 17, 20171 votes

What would you think of doing that?

Lol, I'm nothing special XD

But honestly, I'd appreciate it more. There's something really satisfying about coming out of stealth, guns ablazing. And twitch's lines like "I was hiding" and "Sneaky sneaky" are just so fun. So I would be interested in seeing his assassin style come out more and knocking down his team fight. (Which I feel like old twitch was more an example of)

KloqdqOct 17, 20171 votes

Yeah I think this is kind of what Riot wants to do but they forgot to keep his team fighting power in check. Leading to the current problem where Twitch is good at a bunch of stuff and doesn't have any draw backs (at least a lot less) compared to what he used too.

Plus an assassin marksman just sounds fun. Xayah is just basically what Twitch is and Twitch is just stepping into that group of team fighting too much now while having his assassin stuff.

5000000000000000Oct 17, 20171 votes

Quinn is the only assassin marksman right now, right? Lucian has a high burst too, but not sneaky enough to qualify as an assassin, I think.

KloqdqOct 17, 20171 votes

Quinn is a bit of a monster of champion design. She is like an assassin, diver, skirmisher, thing that exists. But yes, she is closest to a true assassin marksman.

Lucian isn't quite an assassin. Assassins are more champions with the tools to engage the enemy, quickly burst them, and then have the tools to escape. Lucian more is built on combo attacks and dashing in and out of combat.

AbibyamaOct 16, 201715 votes

Upvote farming simulator 2017: ADC edition

SwarovskoOct 16, 201710 votes

Yeah because complaints about Twitch being overpowered for over a year CANNOT be genuine complaints anymore, it must be an "upvote farming simulator".

AbibyamaOct 16, 20177 votes

Not saying that twitch isn’t OP but complaining with any constructive reasoning is not the same as “nErF tWitcH1!1”

And I’m more like this

https://media3.giphy.com/media/l0MYCY14qJvUXO4eI/giphy.gif

SwarovskoOct 16, 20175 votes

complaining with any constructive reasoning is not the same as “nErF tWitcH1!1”

Just like complaining without giving any constructive reasoning is not the same as wanting upvotes. Some people don't want to be famous on the boards, they genuinely want Twitch to get nerfed. If you watch GripaAviara's profile you'll see he's not 24/7 on the boards commenting and jumping on bandwagons so commenting "Upvote farming simulator 2017: ADC edition" is completely bullshit. I bet he/she couldn't care less about upvotes.

Hunted9000Oct 16, 20172 votes

such bad taste take that kid off

SwarovskoOct 16, 20171 votes

You're right

IceKingChernobogOct 16, 201714 votes

He doesn’t need a nerf, he needs a kit rework. His kit is too binary at the moment and when twitch is meta he’s borderline broken, when he’s not meta he’s utter garbage.

Jet SettOct 16, 20175 votes

ADC's as a whole are kinda binary, their biggest reason for being on the team is constant, safe objective damage. They mostly have kits that make them auto harder, auto more, auto safer, etc. The issue in my opinion is that because their main role involves auto attacks it's hard to put them in a good place without making them suck at their job, so it would help to give ADC's more things to do in their kits without overloading them.

Ashe is a good example with her utility keeping her relevant even if her damage is lacking.

PoskeOct 16, 20178 votes

So innacurate

IceKingChernobogOct 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So innacurate

how so?

XenomancersOct 16, 20173 votes

can you explain a situation in which an adc has a huge invisibility duration and can basically auto the entire team from safe distance with their ult would not be meta?

notice me Sin piOct 16, 20171 votes

one picture to explain the situation: Caitlyn

GayFluffyUnicornOct 17, 20173 votes

No he is simply too strong numbers wise. Something needs to go and i'd prefer to hit his Q or ulti. Stealth is enough on Q AND movespeed. Take the AS. Or both and only stealth. Or only as and stealth. R AD, piercing and range=way too much, take away one i'd prefer his range for his lategame power he shouldn't be able to do it from 1k range.

PoskeOct 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

He doesn’t need a nerf, he needs a kit rework. His kit is too binary at the moment and when twitch is meta he’s borderline broken, when he’s not meta he’s utter garbage.

He does need a nerf. He already had a rework he has its niche.

**He is not utter garbage when he isnt meta. **

He was good pick this whole year ever since hurricane became a zeal item. Sometime this year They pointlessly buffed his damage gave him a q resset which makes him unhealthy

DauntOct 16, 20173 votes

Still hoping he gets his stealth radius increased to at least match Eve's. Alongside some crit nerfs he should be fine afterwards imo.

WDG DevourOct 16, 20173 votes

Twitch is perfectly fine. Completely useless in the early game. I can understand why people are salty from his late game power spike but that's how he is intended to work.

Unironic SJWOct 17, 20173 votes

Twitch and every other ADC would have a much healthier play pattern if crit didn't exist. Twitch could certainly be healthy as an assassin if he couldn't be a tank shredding hypercarry as well because of critical strike. Have him build stuff like BORK Lethality etc that actually falls off late game, instead of having ADCs have a guaranteed late game just because crit is a thing. I say this as an ADC player,if you just hard removed crit from the game even if you made the class unplayable even in bot because then at least we could create a healthy balance state from there.

If you remove crit and delete Ardent Censer (even with just aspd and onhit the item is cancerous on Rageblade Kog and Varus who don't need to build crit at all) then you have a healthy starting point to fix the ADC class once and for all (personally what needs to happen with ADC is in exchange for a massive loss of sustained damage, they to be less reliant on peel and teamplay except for a few outliers)