People complain about assassins and that's fine but consider this:

HateDaddy··122 votes·5,452 views

assassins are the only class consistently good enough to kill ranged ADCs and mages, both in and out of laning. Bruisers can't deal with mages in laning. Bruisers can't deal with ADCs in laning. Tanks can't deal with mages in laning, tanks can't deal with ADCs in laning.

The truth is, ranged champions are entirely too safe in this game. Mages are long ranged and offer a plethora of utility from wave clear to hard cc to burst and it all comes from the safety of range. Some of them are even long range, some of them are even mobile. Some of them are azir. The same applies to ADCS, being a variety of mobile, long ranged and some with cc to infinitely kite. Then there's kalista.

Assassins are the only champions who can typically get in, kill them and get out and be a threat consistently enough for them to see play. People complain about assassins stacking tank items but the reason why is because it's gotten to the point where many of them can't even get in long enough to kill a backline without instantly dying or being kited into oblivion or hard cc'd. So they're the perfect class to abuse sticky, beefy, damage over time tank items and simply outlast carries because it's their only means to doing it.

It's a problem riot avoided for too long and they ended up just making it worst. Ranged champions are too good and too safe in this game. Majority of the items should have reduced effectiveness on them like rylais, frozen mallet, maw, etc but they don't. So with this in mind, there's no reason to pick melee champions that can't stack tank items long enough to stay alive to be a threat.

Zed and Fizz are some of the exceptions that can build full damage and people hate their kits but that's what's required of a melee champion to build damage and actually be a threat to ranged backlines because exhaust destroys melee champions, Mercs suck, hard cc is literally in every ranged champions kit now and to make matters worse, you have supports that can now build items and heal you while making you unable to die.

It's disgusting how ranged champions don't have their power curved in this game. And people can complain about zed, fizz and so on and I won't argue with you but just understand this: that's what it takes for a melee champion to be consistently successful in a game that plays a noticeably ridiculous favoritism in terms of balance to ranged champions.

201 Comments

Linna Excel30 votes

So they're the perfect class to abuse sticky, beefy, damage over time tank items and simply outlast carries because it's their only means to doing it.

It's a problem riot avoided for too long and they ended up just making it worst.

This is something Hashinshin always complained about to riot. Bruiser itemization being terrible that is and riot tending to favor ADCs. According to riot, the reason these items aren't good enough for bruisers (but good enough for assassins I guess) is that they can be abused by ADCs too much. So I think what happened is the "when in doubt build tank" trend of new champs finally got to the point where assassins like ekko could abuse them, and they were able to make use of the juggernaut items specifically, thus starting off this trend.

I agree that the tanksassin needs to die but I don't think riot has any idea how to do it. If they did, they would have tried by now. So I'm guessing this topic is going on the list of things riot can't be bothered to do anything about.

Zed and Fizz are some of the exceptions that can build full damage and people hate their kits

Yes we hate their kits. Also, fizz was building tank up until 2 patches ago.

you have supports that can now build items and heal you while making you unable to die.

Please, let's not go back to the wardbot days where even boots were luxury items you got when ahead.

HateDaddy11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RQAjef6r,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-06T04:04:33.879+0000)

This is something Hashinshin always complained about to riot. Bruiser itemization being terrible that is and riot tending to favor ADCs. According to riot, the reason these items aren't good enough for bruisers (but good enough for assassins I guess) is that they can be abused by ADCs too much. So I think what happened is the "when in doubt build tank" trend of new champs finally got to the point where assassins like ekko could abuse them, and they were able to make use of the juggernaut items specifically, thus starting off this trend.

Some of it is true but most of it is because riot is unwilling to make bruiser items less effective on ADCs or ranged champions in general. This led to steraks, maw and others being abused by ranged champions. This forces assassins to either build tanky or starve because they can't burst the ADCs with this build and mages late game either have a mixture of too much hp/resists or zhonyas, or a combo of both to be a target of an assassin.

Think about it, iceborn only gained 10% CDR. Assassins like Ekko, fizz and others can easily get 40% CDR in a normal AP build. Sunfire wasn't buffed, just bamis existing. Why all of a sudden are these items, long considered trash on melees good all of a sudden with hardly any direct changes? Assassins and every class needed a way to keep up, and this was it. Bruisers didn't do well with this and tanks abused it too but they largely just abused the fact that they were now getting 40% easily with grasp.

I agree that the tanksassin needs to die but I don't think riot has any idea how to do it. If they did, they would have tried by now. So I'm guessing this topic is going on the list of things riot can't be bothered to do anything about.

Yes we hate their kits. Also, fizz was building tank up until 2 patches ago.

Fizz still built damage too, it was 50/50

Please, let's not go back to the wardbot days where even boots were luxury items you got when ahead.

I'm not asking for that but supports are already very good with little to no gold and absolutely shit on melees just by taking exhaust and existing.

Troll for Trump20 votes

melee only melee only melee only melee only item 3025 item 3071 item 3142

Blue Moon Wolf10 votes

Riot said they want to stop making melee only/ ranged only items cause it "ruins diversity". Sadly they don't quite realize that there are just certain things that just can't be balanced in a way to make them work good for one and not be broken for the other. I mean, item 3025 has no damage aside from a bit from it's passive, so you'd think and ADC wouldn't bother. But then you have Ezreal who I think has it in his recommended items since it's so good on him. for item 3071, it gives the same amount of AD as item 3033, an item that ADCs seem to refuse to ever build because of the low AD, yet they will spend an extra 400g to build item 3071 cause it can give 30% total armor pen and 20 movement speed on hit.

Troll for Trump4 votes

Not just item 3025 on Ezreal , he abuses every sheen item. item 3078 item 3100

Riot did say they wanted to make crit a lot less random and more interesting at one point.

Right now, crit is basically only for ADCS(though now most of the meta ones build like bruisers/assassins).

And whatever uses crit ends up being stupidly toxic or broken Yasuo Tryndamere

Spoofghoul5 votes

I saw my first tank fizz over 2 years ago man, not 2 patches and im sure he wasnt the first to do it

it was aids then and its aids now

Aroha Mai2 votes

This is something Hashinshin always complained about to riot. Bruiser itemization being terrible that is and riot tending to favor ADCs. According to riot, the reason these items aren't good enough for bruisers (but good enough for assassins I guess) is that they can be abused by ADCs too much. So I think what happened is the "when in doubt build tank" trend of new champs finally got to the point where assassins like ekko could abuse them, and they were able to make use of the juggernaut items specifically, thus starting off this trend.

Bruiser itemization will never be good so long as the mentality that "melee vs melee is just a wet noodle fight."

Fucking hell do I hate Ghostcrawler for that post he made.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Any source? I'd like to read it as well.

Aroha Mai2 votes

{quoted}

Any source? I'd like to read it as well.

Its on the original GD board but http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4718644 Best thing I could find.

Aptest15 votes

{quoted}

assassins are the only class consistently good enough to kill ranged ADCs and mages, both in and out of laning.

let's look at your argument from the opposing perspective. consistently kill ranged ADCs and mages in lane. what does this mean?

it means, you have a reasonable expectation to be able to kill your lane opponent at either level 4 or 6 with your ignite. following that, whenever you have your ult you can expect another kill. at level 8 or so, being in lane and CSing is technically over for your opponent. You can expect this to happen every game you go against a mage or an ADC ( = consistently ).

therefore in lane, these champions are completely non-viable, and they have to get some mad no-item power spikes to compensate for their inability to lane VS you, to be played.

the same goes for out of lane phase. consistently means the amount of help you need from your team is minimal. i.e. you can generally affect this without your team having to specifically arrange the kill for you; if you can consistently kill the mage of ADC of the other team and get out free than the mage or ADC does not get to play the team fight aspect of the game.

By the same logic ADCs and maget have to be godly at pre-fight poke or some other function, which will have to become completely oppressive because their team has to win every fight 4v5 (or 4v4 since they also have an assassin).

Assassins are the only champions who can typically get in, kill them and get out and be a threat consistently enough for them to see play

a demand for consistency in denying the opposing player from playing is completely unreasonable. assassins need a different power fantasy. one that is not "If i see the other guy alone, he's dead and im alive. also, if he's not alone he's still dead and im still alive since juke mad zed plays".

ideally, if you're playing Zed or volibear or tryndamare and im playing an equally fed Ashe, being able to just go on me should not be a given. in the same light, i should not be able to just go on you. there should be enough skill checks in the match up that allow both players to kill and be killed.

but skill check and consistency are mutually exclusive.

EDIT: skill check does not mean you are able to execute rengar's mechanical combo. Rengar combo is completely "you VS the computer" and does not involve the other player in any way. it means you have to go up against my skill and hit a skill that i can juke, juke my skills, etc.

WoonStruck8 votes

If assassins need a different fantasy, so do ADCs.

If ADCs retain their current 'fantasy', assassins remain the only reliable answer.

That's his point.

Yes, assassins need changes, but so do ADCs and itemization in general.

Aptest6 votes

I fully agree that ADCs need to be changed in a significant way.

ADCs are right now too vulnerable, too powerful and too necessary in the game. In tandem with their easy access to sustain and therefore resilience to poke (in high elo where they are allowed to lifesteal off creeps), theiy are an unhealthy combination.

right now you have to remove enemy ADC from the game to win fight. you have to do it in a burst because the ADC can retaliate with high DPS and recover with high sustain if you do not.

So much of the team's damage in a late game scenario is relient on ADC that picks invariabely revolve around protecting ADCs and removing them from play.

That is way too much agency to give to any single player. but on the other hand, since the protection and deletion of the adc is usually out of their own hand, the adc player is in a wierd position where all the agency in the game revolves around his role, but non of it is in his hands.

the solution, i feel, is to nerf the late game power of ADCs. If ADCs matter less late game, other classes will shine more and assassins will cease to be a problem because they are simply not that good at 2-shotting a fed irelia which will be the new team-fight task.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

Yeah how dare u to be a well skilled zed. Better create more point and click nuke champs with no skill at all. There are already enough braindead nuke champs. So i don't understand the hate against mechanically difficult champs like zed or azir.

Mages and adcs already have enough tools for laning phase: Range CC AOE-Dmg/cc

The immobility and squishyness of those classes makes it difficult to get behind the frontline to kill the other dmg threats to fill this niche we have assassins. To be able to compete as a melee in lane, assassins have high single target burst and high mobility to get to those immobile classes. Rock/Paper/Scissor.

It is given that an adc should not be able to easily 1v1 assassins, mages, bruisers. Otherwise they would be played consistently on toplane and wouldn'T need a babysitter support. Problem now is the powershift in season 6. Only answer are assassins or tank assassins in that case. You just jump onto "assassins are the problem" when in fact assassins right now are the only answer to a bigger problem.

Tbh u ignored half his post and just cherrypicked on the assassins which is the most hated class here. So good job for farming upvotes for hating on assassins again without saying anything to the problem mentioned by op

Aptest7 votes

You speak of rock-paper-scissors.

by that logic, there should exist a champion with the following properties:

A) if it meets an assassin in an isolated lane, or in the jungle, it can by it's sole discretion engage on the assassin, and the assassin is unable to escape. B) the assassin lacks sufficient mobility to juke or evade or "escape" this imaginary champion. C) the assassin's damage is not relevant enough in the fight to affect any other resolution than "assassin = dead". D) the imaginary champion has enough damage to solo kill the assassin. E) the imaginary champion is also not an assassin.

Does such a champion exist? Is there a champion that denies an assassin both the ability to fight back, AND the ability to avoid a fight, while being able to burn a skill on starting the fight, instead of fighting it?

your rock/paper/scissors argument hinges on the existence of this imaginary champion. we know it's not a champion that actually exists, though.

Ralanr10 votes

Hard CC is on every ranged champions kit?

I think that's a stretch.

HateDaddy19 votes

{quoted}

Hard CC is on every ranged champions kit?

I think that's a stretch.

That's not what I meant

I meant if it's not hard cc, it's mobility or some other obscene means of survival that ranged champions, especially long ranged champions, shouldn't have access to.

Zero Skill Tank11 votes

You do realize that assassins presence in the game is the sole reason why ranged champions have, and need, those "obscene means of survival"?

Experiment: try playing AP Teemo against an assassin. Do not resort to full tankmo builds, just build like a mage. See how this works.

This is exactly how mages would play without those "obscene" safety measures.

Astôlfo2 votes

Um, no. They don't need means of survival. They need to either play smarter, or die.

Zero Skill Tank11 votes

If you don't have means of survival like CC or extreme range, or mobility, how exactly do you "play smarter" against a champion who can jump on you from more than a thousand units and kill you?

In a TF, yes, you can stick to your peeler or whatever, but laning against Zed, LB, Akali or Fizz is straight up impossible without those defensive measures. Many assassins can even easily kill their target under tower if those defense abilities are on CD.

Around999People3 votes

And those assassins need gap closers because those squishes have mobility and some form of disengage/cc.

This is a circular argument.

Abyssphere8 votes

It being a circular argument is kind of the point he's making. If you talk about how melee characters need obscene tools to deal with the ridiculous power ranged champions have access to then you can just talk about how ranged champions need their ridiculous powers to deal with the obscene tools melees have. Ranged champions come into being in this game expected to deal with people like Talon who will jump on you and kill you instantly with no counterplay whatsoever UNLESS you have something very strong at stopping him do that. They're expected to deal with champions like Udyr who a champion without wall dashes has no options for escaping whatsoever. That's why ranged champions started being given spammable slows, dashes, or even both of those things at once.

In response you see melee champions get obscenely powerful tools like CC immunity, CC cleansing, spammable dashes, multiple abilities with gapclosers and sometimes downright unfair hard CC.

When Riot made the first champions they made ranged champions who were unacceptably difficult for melee champions to catch (e.g. Ashe). In the same moment they made melee champions that were unacceptably difficult for a ranged champion to deal with (e.g. Yi). Yi's slow immunity alone necessitates that far more squishy champions than are appropriate have access to some form of hard CC or a dash, because there's no way they can deal with him otherwise. On the other hand, Yi cannot possibly hope to get to squishy champions without his slow immunity and long duration speed boost.

For the entire existence of the game, ranged vs melee has been hugely binary because the very beginning of the game had hugely binary ranged vs melee matchups. We're too far in to do anything about that now, unfortunately. You'd have to rework almost every champion in the game to solve the problem, and rework/remove tons of items.

YJRBqwXJcS6 votes

{quoted}

Hard CC is on every ranged champions kit?

I think that's a stretch.

Varus ult ashe ult Trist ult Kalista ult small instances with Vayne and corkI kit, jinx, cait, ezreal with ibg, the only champions with no cc are Lucian.

Mf and kog can slow

Ralanr4 votes

Slows aren't hard CC.

Wolfram Oxford10 votes

I just read the first little bit so excuse me if I am out of context but... these guys can kill ranged carries easily.

Zac DrMundo Darius Hecarim Irelia Illaoi JarvanIV Jax Malphite Maokai Pantheon Nasus Rammus Renekton Rumble Shyvana Singed Sion Skarner TahmKench Udyr Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Amumu Nautilus Garen Gnar Sejuani Poppy Olaf LeeSin Fizz Gragas Ryze Swain AND they aren't assassins :D

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RQAjef6r,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-06T04:45:13.065+0000)

I just read the first little bit so excuse me if I am out of context but... these guys can kill ranged carries pretty easily.

Zac DrMundo Darius Hecarim Irelia Illaoi JarvanIV Jax Malphite Maokai Pantheon Nasus Rammus Renekton Rumble Shyvana Singed Sion Skarner TahmKench Udyr Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Amumu Nautilus Garen Gnar Sejuani Poppy Olaf LeeSin Fizz Gragas Ryze Swain AND they aren't assassins :D

I'm not talking about 1v1s and many of those would get wrecked by ADCs in 1v1 mid/late. And I'm not just complaining about ADCs.

Sightless665 votes

I'm not talking about 1v1s

I don't think he was either.

NineTailedMystic9 votes

I'll say I appreciate your posts HateDaddy. I may not always agree with them, but they always prompt healthy gameplay discussion.

Now the discussion part.

No one truly wants Assassins to be deleted from the game or anything. It's just they're too consistent and without counterplay barring a few exceptions. I've said a few things on the boards recently about Assassins and I'll reiterate them here. The problem is that there are no reactive measures to Assassins barring basically Zed and AP Ekko, only proactive such as warding and game knowledge. It's either you have item 3157 and have the reaction time of a god, the Assassin is so far behind and can't kill you, you're tanky enough to live it, or you die. Basically it, virtually no basis for any mechanical outplay. Assassins such as Rengar, Talon, and Akali just remove your existence from the game for the duration of the Death Timer and flounder around a teamfight after killing their target trying to incite as much chaos as they can in a teamfight before they die. The intention of the Assassin update is to fix this issue by removing the feeling of "You don't get to outplay the Assassin, they get to outplay you" and the feeling of how they decide who gets to play League that game.

Now for the Ranged vs Melee issue. Melee champions have historically been a stat check vs other Melees and potentially Ranged champions. If they're ahead they have the base stats to be tanky enough/do enough damage to win fights without much outplay chance. This is just how melees work since there is much less room to evade your opponents abilities and you can't dodge an auto attack. Unless you're Jax. Melee vs Melee match ups mainly consist of game knowledge. How to abuse bush vision, how to abuse minion aggro, jungler awareness (allied and enemy), summoner 12 plays, etc. This makes up 90% of Melee match ups while the last 10% is mechanical outplay, although this varies with match up like Riven takes a lot more mechanical skill and outplay potential compared to someone like Garen. Of course this isn't my field of expertise, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, which I'm sure people will.

Now Itemization is something lost on me, so I want to hear how others would fix the itemization issue you've presented. Some items like item 3022 are reduced for Ranged champions with a 30% slow compared to a 40% slow for Melee champions. If you want to make more items like this where Melee champions simply get better things off of items, I feel that'd be disproportionate gold-wise. If they just got straight better stats, they'd get so much more value off of one item making their gold go much farther per item, and while some passives are hard to give a gold value to (such as item 3022), aren't they theoretically getting 10% more efficiency off of the item's passive?

HazyCloud74 votes

Great post, upvote for you sir. I can't say enough how much I agree with melees having the base stats to dominate without the need to outplay when ahead. Even on a mage like Azir or Viktor if a tank or bruiser is far enough ahead they can just shrug off your poke during a siege, we see that regularly in the LCS.

The game would a lot more frustrating if ranged champions weren't safe to the degree they are now. Even someone like Jinx who has incredible range is prone to just outright get demolished if a top lane bruiser gets a quality TP flank off, or if she simply mispositions in a teamfight.

Champion Skin3 votes

If you want to make more items like this where Melee champions simply get better things off of items, I feel that'd be disproportionate gold-wise. If they just got straight better stats, they'd get so much more value off of one item making their gold go much farther per item, and while some passives are hard to give a gold value to (such as item 3022 ), aren't they theoretically getting 10% more efficiency off of the item's passive?

In the case of Frozen Mallet I actually think it is way more efficient on ranged champions as they have an easier time applying the slow and because the slow can enable them to kite melee champions and prevent them from dealing damage

While melee champions if they can apply the slow the enemy can also hit them back (and it is usually more difficult to apply)

After all the champion who I can remember having used/abused it the most recently is Gnar who both like the kiting and AD in mini-Gnar and the HP is great for being a tank in Mega-Gnar

Blåbæret7 votes

Tanks can't deal with mages in laning? Lol. You just get MR and it's GG.

THE RlVER KlNG6 votes

Honestly the only 'balanced' assassin is Shaco, because there is actual skill and outplay involved in both using him AND fighting him. He usually goes jg, so wards completely invalidate him. If he goes lane, he can't one shot you and cover 1k+ units of ground in a half second to reach you as soon as you step up to cs or harass.

Plus, his damage is tied to his escape (which, mind you, ISN'T point and click) and he has no way out unless he didn't engage in the first place.

IS3E531E3F9643916 votes

you know, I'm ok with shaco coming in qith W, juking with his ult and outplaying me to kill me, and then he actually dies but that's ok because he did what he wanted to do

I'm not ok with leblanc or zed killing me and then safely blinking 2 screens away while they didn't even have to try to outplay and simply aim at me and spam abilities.

Wheatloaf5 votes

I hate assassins because they're (for the most part, in their current state) binary. However I understand that works both for and against them. I may not have many options against, say, Talon, but he has approximately as few against me.

Kanzaki Ranko5 votes

Yes and when bruisers are strong it's even more unhealthy because they are all walking stat sticks. They either suck or are ridiculously overbearing. Or are Irelia.

The Ghost Rider4 votes

I just read through the comments and witnessed the most salty battle between Marksmen and Assassins I've ever seen

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

Funny thing is to see how the community changed. I just read the old discussion with ghostcrawler on the old forums. Overall consensus: Adcs are way too overpowered. Melees (bruisers, tanks AND ASSASSINS) shitty and gutted and it's always cycling. Melee>range--->immediately buff ranged champs and vice versa. Right now the community is: MUH TANK META, MUH ASSASSINS SO OVERPOWERED. When in fact adcs AGAIN got a rework, overhaul what ever and are in a very strong spot right now. Same as mages.

Arthimetes4 votes

The assassin class is 100% needed in this game, thats not the problem people have with them.

The problem isnt the fact theyre designed to, well, assassinate. The problem is the virtual lack of counterplay most assassins have, and thats what the assassin update is going to try to fix.

Well that and the tank thing, fuck whoever was the first guy to build tank on fizz and ekko.

Serika Zero4 votes

assassins are generally high risk, high reward their job is to assassinate, and if they fail, they should pay a heafty price for it (generally their life)

But riot doesn't agree with this. They want assassins to be nimble and escape critical situations with their mobility and shit. Just like Zed's recall with R, LeBlank with her W and Fizz with his E. And this is the stupid thing regarding assassins in lol. Its not that the vast majority of them are designed to assassinate the target. They are also designed to get the fuck out without any risk involved. Like Rengar post ultimate movement speed. Its totally not needed. And he should die even if he gets a kill if he jumped in a bad spot. Yet he gets some movement speed to run away -> and this is rito's vision of assassins.

Which tbh is as RETARDED as dynamic queue being a representative for your rank. It just doesn't happen that way. You can't start a fire at a gas station just because you feel like it. Actions have consequences, and sometimes they cause destruction.

Like Tank Ekko. You have an "assassin" with a lot of CC (slows after slows, and a stun). You have a 'escape' ultimate with a heal attacked to it. Also escape dash. And lets not forget %hp damage. Why wouldn't you build that tanky?

You got escapes to get out when shit gets to bad. You get %hp damage to still output damage. And you also got tons of CC to keep the enemy locked down. That's also Tank Fizz problem. His W and R amplifications......combined with easy escapes..... but no, lets keep em like this. "Nimble assassins"

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

His R amplification was added so he isn't able to one shot everyone with Q+W and a simple lichbane. They toned down his numbers but gave him the amplification. Thanks to all the overloaded items in this game+masteries and keystones the amp is enough together with his basestats that he can just build tank and still duel any champ in his way. Someone said it in a different thread: The problem atm is the overall dmg in the game right now. Why would u build glasscannon when all the "hybrid" items or actual tank items provide enough dmg to deal with squishies. Better than risking to get deleted before you even reach your designated target (speaking from assassins point of view). Riot wanted diversity in builds and now we have diversity in builds. Look at the hottest jhin build atm. Two assassin items: GB and Duskblade One Bruiser item: Maw Two actual adc items: IE and RFC. To survive that the assassins now need to steal from tanks, since there is enough dmg in the game to still do their job. The only ones suffering are actual tanks atm imo. They don't have the dmg nor the tankyness to compete. All they can do is provide some CC and act as a meatshield. why would i need a sion when i can have tank fizz who peels, is a meatshield, applies cc and still assassinates high value targets?

Puppet33r4 votes

My personal problem with current assassins is that they can do w/e the fuk they want and leave almost 0 room for punish. They can wave clear as good as any mage(which was always a thing you would pick a mage for), they can all-in you more reliably(their skillshots are usually easy and they always have some mechanism to avoid damage entirely) hell, some can even poke. In the meantime most of the mages, ad casters and adcs are straightforward, VERY predictable and rarely have any escape mechanism(and most of the times this escape mechanism is another predictable skillshot).

So yeah assassins are stupid and overloaded af. Would ranged champs become next concern if rito nerfs assassins? I highly doubt it. Most of the bruisers(juggernauts and whatnot) are ridiculously overtuned(think ad jarvan, irelia, riven, hecarim, etc...) and would definitely fill that tank assassin slot we love so much.

Drugoth3 votes

This post had so much potential but you forgot to include a Bill Nye consider the following meme :( http://media2.giphy.com/media/SVL5Dws0bOSgE/giphy.gif

devdev4633 votes

Ranged champs being better than melee champs is one of those things I always read about, but never get that feeling at all while playing. Melee champs that have gap closers are MUCH stronger than any ranged champ in the lane phase. Get hit by a j4 eq or vi combo or wukong eq, they take out like half your health early on as a squishy (wukong a little less damage bc it's targeted). Are we talking about shit like mundo and olaf and udyr? They have ways to farm and in a long lane if they are pushed in and not super behind many times can just pop ghost and run that person down. If you can't get the lane to push into you in one of those matchups then they are letting you free farm or you are needlessly pushing.

Also the jungle is exclusively reserved for melee champs with only a few ranged champs being even remotely viable. But i suspect we are only talking about laning phase between a ranged and melee champ. It's balanced out because if they are running 3 to 4 or even 5 ranged champs then having an olaf that didn't feed in the mid to late game is a win condition for the olafs team. Only a few specific team comps with that many ranged champ will even work unless they have a huge lead and can close it out before the enemy team starts running them over.

Maybe someone can explain this to me, because to me it just seems like while yeah that vayne does scale really well, if she's in the top lane she's generally not brining what her team needs to win, so I don't see why this is a problem.

Kyrrion2 votes

It's like the melee vs ranged discrepancy still exists...

Rian1 votes

Pretty sure bruiser and tanks can deal with mages and adcs quite easily in lane. Maybe not in early levels but they outscale them very efficiently. The reason why mages are in solo lane is because the team needs ap damage and mid lane is quite save because of the tower distance. Also mages scale better with levels then adcs.

Ralanr2 votes

Everyone scales better with levels than ADC's. ADC's are an item scaling class.

Rian3 votes

Except supports. But that's not the point. I was trying to explain that adc/mages are usually weaker in lane. However if the game would be decided by the laning phase every lane would pick bruiser/tanks.

Ralanr2 votes

Supports work as supports because their utility is weakened from being behind in items. So they do scale with levels.

And I'd add assassins to laning phase honestly. Once they get a kill they are like nightmares to stop.

Rian3 votes

The idea of supports is to be usefull without levels or items. They are equaly efficient in low and high level due to the way there abilities work. So there "scaling" is virtually non-existent. Btw the point of the comment is that assassins are not the only viable option against ranged champions.

Ralanr2 votes

My apologies.

But how are tanks viable? Dps counters tanks.

Rian2 votes

Tanks have access to much more cost- efficient items wich is an important factor during the laning phase. That means they are much stronger in early to midgame. Adcs usually build items which have 2 important late game factors. 1.) They are more expensive and 2.) they need to scale with eachother. For example item 3031 alone is not very usefull. You may have high damage and moderate crit chance but without attackspeed it's not very efficient. Same for item 3046. Without high damage attackspeed is kinda pointless. Tanks on the other hand have access to items item 3068 with a good mixture of hp + armor and sustain damage.

At some point the adc base defense stats combined with high dps + lifesteal should be enougth to out sustain the damage of tanks. However the role of tanks in late game is more about zoning/peeling and not directly figthing an adc in an 1v1. At least it should be this way... fulltank burster like Fizz/Ekko and early game dominating adcs like "korean"Lucian are the perfect examples of what should't be the case.

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