Short range, no hard mobility, easily kited, high damage, situational raid boss with poor teamfight but high scaling
Rammus fits the definition of a juggernaut far better than a vanguard. He should be considered the armor boy of the class.
Done254 votesHigh speed initiation. High alpha durability. A large focus on AoE damage. Long lasting CC focused AoE ult and a targeted hard CC. Sounds like a textbook Vanguard to me.
Moody P1 voteslarge focus on AOE? Rammus taunts one person and butt fucks them, Illaoi has way stronger AOE
urgot and aatrox match in CC contribution by having huge AOEs or infinite CC
Volibear can engage just as well but he is not a vanguard
Juggernaut.
Done252 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RLT1TRux,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-06T13:29:53.575+0000)
large focus on AOE? Rammus taunts one person and butt fucks them, Illaoi has way stronger AOE
All of Illaoi's tentacles will target what she hits with Harsh Lesson. Even if others are hit with the splash she can only actively target one person at a time. Rammus's spikes will retaliate at whatever hits him, and his R is a much wider AoE. Illaoi makes up for this by having much higher damage. If you get a team of five bronze idiots to stand inside each other then yes. She will smash their entire team in a single go. But don't even try to pretend that Rammus can match the sheer amount of damage Illaoi can. Especially when she nails multiple people with her ult.
urgot and aatrox match in CC contribution by having huge AOEs or infinite CC
Urgot has a weak slow on his Q and a single target Flip on his E that, along with his R, has a largencast time and can be body blocked.
Aatrox pays for his CC hy having it be difficult to land and the zone growing smaller as he goes further into his Q sequence. It also only lasts 0.25 seconds per knock up iirc.
Volibear can engage just as well but he is not a vanguard
Juggernaut.
As stated in the other post Volibear is a Fighter who emulates Warwick and Trundle much more closely than he does Garen or Darius.
Dr Dog1 votesuh rammus has one of the worst ults in the game unless your ap, it does tiny peanut dmg you literally only use it for the slow when chasing and to get extra dmg on towers, most rammus players will tell you to literally just skip your r at level 6 for another point in your taunt
Done251 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RLT1TRux,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-12-06T14:54:31.285+0000)
uh rammus has one of the worst ults in the game unless your ap, it does tiny peanut dmg you literally only use it for the slow when chasing and to get extra dmg on towers, most rammus players will tell you to literally just skip your r at level 6 for another point in your taunt
Rammus ult does solid damage, but that's not the draw. The power comes from the fact that it's an AoE slow that lasts up to 9.5 seconds. A slow that, at max rank, can reach up to 94% over the course of its duration.
Dr Dog1 votesit does awful dmg unless your ap like i said, and ya his ult would be good in fights with its slow the only problem being rammus falls off hard late game and your usually the engage so you die pretty quickly into the fight usually going waaaay ahead of your team to get the carry as thats what rammus does, more or less your just gonna be using it for extra tower dmg 90% of the time
Pandemic Punch4 votesEasily kitted though? Lol
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pandemic Punch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RLT1TRux,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-06T13:28:37.892+0000)
Easily kitted though? Lol
since cc interrupts powerball now, imo yea. hes pretty easily kited.
Pandemic Punch1 votesNice joke
Moody P1 votesWhat rank are you
Done251 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RLT1TRux,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-12-06T13:34:52.767+0000)
since cc interrupts powerball now, imo yea. hes pretty easily kited.
Only hard CC/interrupts stop his Q. If you get hit by Morg Q/Syndra knock back while in Q that's kind of your own fault as Rammus.
Critmaster Garen1 votesi want to disagree, but i cant find a reason.
could be consideration for a future update. the question is, will it piss off rammus mains, or do they want him to be worked more into a tank instead?
right now its like hes in a weird in between but not good at either.
Done252 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RLT1TRux,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-06T13:05:21.524+0000)
i want to disagree, but i cant find a reason.
could be consideration for a future update. the question is, will it piss off rammus mains, or do they want him to be worked more into a tank instead?
right now its like hes in a weird in between but not good at either.
Here's a reason: Real Juggernauts (Garen, Darius, Illaoi) would kick him around like a soccer ball due to powerful sustained DPS and built in durability/sustain. Garen's Courage would reduce the Taunt to nothing while Daruis's and Illaoi's in battle sustain would outlast him. Then you add their ults into the mix and he just falls apart.
Moody P1 votesLosing to other juggernauts doesn't exclude you from being one
Volibear will straight lose to most other juggernauts in a1v1 brawl but that doesn't mean he isn't one. Same with Aatrox.
Done251 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RLT1TRux,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-06T13:36:49.402+0000)
Losing to other juggernauts doesn't exclude you from being one
Volibear will straight lose to most other juggernauts in a1v1 brawl but that doesn't mean he isn't one. Same with Aatrox.
I'm pretty sure Volibear is also being held on the "To be reworked...eventually" slab. Also, Volibear isn't a juggernaut, he's a Fighter like Warwick and Trundle. (Some mobility. Mixed phys/magic damage. Sustain.)
Critmaster Garen1 votesI'm pretty sure Volibear is also being held on the "To be reworked...eventually" slab. Also, Volibear isn't a juggernaut, he's a Fighter like Warwick and Trundle. (Some mobility. Mixed phys/magic damage. Sustain.)
juggernauts are a sub class of fighters.
you have fighters divided into juggernauts and divers.
voli is a jugger, trundle is a jugger, warwick is a diver.
Done251 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RLT1TRux,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-06T13:58:01.755+0000)
juggernauts are a sub class of fighters.
you have fighters divided into juggernauts and divers.
voli is a jugger, trundle is a jugger, warwick is a diver.
I had a huge post, and then my stupid phone ate it. I'll try and make a tl;dr version.
In my mind there are three classes of "Fighter". (Which is really just an generic term for "Mostly melee ranged person that is durable and hits people to death." from way back in LoL's infancy years.)
Diver - Powerful, reliable, and immediate single target access. They often pay for their mobility and high damage by being relatively fragile off base kit alone. Xin, Vi, Nocturne, Irelia, Kled. A fed Diver is every ADC's worst nightmare due to reliable engage married to solid damage and item based durability.
Duelist - Mixed damage that is hard to itemize against with a balanced amount of survivability and sticking power makes it difficult to 1v1 them. Warwick, Trundle, Volibear, Yi, Fiora, Nasus, Jax, Udyr. (Nasus can reach Jugg levels of raw damage off his Q, but only if allowed to farm.) The Duelist is damn near impossible to kill 1v1.
Juggernaut - Extreamly limited mobility in exchange for high innate durability and massive amounts of AoE damage. They often have little attack speed in comparison to most fighters and their damage comes from powerful abilities. Garen, Darius, Illaoi, Sion, Rumble, Mordekaiser. They are the team fight kings of the "Fighter" class.
Critmaster Garen1 votesI had a huge post, and then my stupid phone ate it. I'll try and make a tl;dr version.
In my mind there are three classes of "Fighter". (Which is really just an generic term for "Mostly melee ranged person that is durable and hits people to death." from way back in LoL's infancy years.)
Diver - Powerful, reliable, and immediate single target access. They often pay for their mobility and high damage by being relatively fragile off base kit alone. Xin, Vi, Nocturne, Irelia, Kled. A fed Diver is every ADC's worst nightmare due to reliable engage married to solid damage and item based durability.
Duelist - Mixed damage that is hard to itemize against with a balanced amount of survivability and sticking power makes it difficult to 1v1 them. Warwick, Trundle, Volibear, Yi, Fiora, Nasus, Jax, Udyr. (Nasus can reach Jugg levels of raw damage off his Q, but only if allowed to farm.) The Duelist is damn near impossible to kill 1v1.
Juggernaut - Extreamly limited mobility in exchange for high innate durability and massive amounts of AoE damage. They often have little attack speed in comparison to most fighters and their damage comes from powerful abilities. Garen, Darius, Illaoi, Sion, Rumble, Mordekaiser. They are the team fight kings of the "Fighter" class.
there is an official classification by riot.
they divided tanks into wardens and vanguards, fighters into juggernauts and divers, "slayers" into assassins and skirmishers (though skirmishers are really just mobile fighters imo), and supports into enchanters, catchers and another i forgot.
Done251 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RLT1TRux,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-06T15:56:23.577+0000)
there is an official classification by riot.
they divided tanks into wardens and vanguards, fighters into juggernauts and divers, "slayers" into assassins and skirmishers (though skirmishers are really just mobile fighters imo), and supports into enchanters, catchers and another i forgot.
I agree with "Skirmishers" just being very mobile high dps Fighters. (Duelist under my 3 class category). They way they set up the "Support" classification also upsets me. I personally believe that Enchanters are Mages much in the same way that Wardens are Tanks.
I also believe that there are two types of assassins, but not like Riot defines them. You've got the AP flavor (LB/Fizz/Ahri/Ekko) who have hard CC to hold their target in place so they can safely nuke them, and then you have the AD caster flavor (Shaco, Zed, Talon) who lack that Mage like CC, but make up for it with a faster execution of their kill combo. (Ex. Shaco Q into BackstabDuskbladeStatikkShivONESHOT)
Moody P1 votesRammus got shafted by armor becoming a meme stat
But I like him as is design wise. He's enjoyable, probably a top 3 tank for me.
Hammermancer1 votesKinda reminds me of 
Midg3t1 votesLike it matters what Rammus is lol
Salvor Hardın1 votesHi, im a Rammus Main 850k, i can say he is a Tank with a subclass of Fighter, but mainly a tank, its role is to engage a rival carry and resist damage from enemy team.
Incognonymous1 votesJuggernauts aren't known for their hard CC or inherent defensive steroids. There are exceptions, but Rammus getting both places him firmly elsewhere. Builds aren't necessarily definitive, but underlie design intent-- what is Rammus building that puts him in line with other AP Juggernauts?
Rammus is a vanguard. His initiate may be more interruptible than some others, but if he flash Q's onto an ADC with his W and R up, then taunts them with E-- that's textbook vanguard.
DragonShea1 votesHalf-Juggernaut Half-Vanguard. Similar to Volbear. He needs a rework to make him a proper vanguard, but it's also the meta that is to blame as well.