Are we going to stop pretending Pantheon isn't a problem right now?

HateDaddy··99 votes·7,450 views

He's been sitting at a 54-55% winrate now for the last several patches. This isn't an outlier, it's not just his "mains." He's sitting at 7% pickrate, which is moderately popular especially in top lane. He also doesn't really "fall off" until 40+ minutes.

https://na.op.gg/champion/pantheon/statistics/top

Pantheon as a lane dominator used to have a very clear avenue to be defeated: outsustain his mana pool. Between corrupting potion, meditation mastery and thunderlords, Pantheon wins almost every top lane match-up with his mana costs not really being a problem anymore. Yes, there are some champions who beat him but that doesn't justify his ridiculous winrate and how effortless it is to stomp lane AND ROAM with a semi-global ultimate. This champion has needed to be reworked for a long time, his design is ancient and a product of a very different game where matches were won and lost based on counterpicks. League has obviously gotten away from that. There should be more to lane than eating autistic spear after autistic spear but that's literally all Pantheon does.

As for nerfs, I would honestly suggest increasing the cooldown on his Q a bit and perhaps reducing execute crit passive damage on his E. I don't mind the idea of Pantheon being a lane bully but not to the extent that he is and not with the very little effort and interaction required to go about it. If he wants to bully, he needs to actually commit more than just spears. He needs to risk his tail and actually make use of his passive rather than the lane just be the following series of events:

eat spears have him passive block W/E Passive block Spear haha you're dead

And yes, I did just play against pantheon and yes I will admit a clear and obvious bias. I did not lose but I fucking hate this champion and he is one of the worst designed champions in the game. Laning against him is miserable, I don't care if he "falls off." Riot has gone away from champions who dominate lane like that for a reason, because people hate playing against that shit. It will be inevitable that somebody will throw out "haha just play champion x and make him cry." Okay and what about the thousands of other times he's used to counterpick you and 90% of the top lane roster? Furthermore, his statistics are simply too high right now. He needs nerfs plain and simple.

215 Comments

fuffychan70 votes

"buy armor"

"dont trade with him"

"gank with your jungler"

"he falls off"

Did I get all the usual useless replies?

HateDaddy37 votes

{quoted}

"buy armor"

"dont trade with him"

"gank with your jungler"

"he falls off"

Did I get all the usual useless replies?

I will never understand this boards love affair with that champion. He is pure bullshit.

Skorch38 votes

wait wait wait wait wait. Love affair? with who? Pantheon?

Um... you are the first person i have seen mention Pantheon in a gameplay boards since i started looking at the boards early season 6.

So i dont really know what you mean by love affair.

JaxMoonStealer1 votes

He's been talked about pretty often lately.

Chromatic Eagle18 votes

Where?

Death by Glamour2 votes

When lethality was getting abused

mightysmity9 votes

Right. Does anyone play him in LCS, pros?

Junkο7 votes

I mean Yasuo isn't played in pro play either but the bronzes and silvers of boards keep complaining about him.

Cosmic Warper9 votes

{quoted}

"buy armor"

"dont trade with him"

"gank with your jungler"

"he falls off"

Did I get all the usual useless replies?

Don't forget " just don't cs so he can't harass you. that's his counterplay" kappa

Faceroll Tactics13 votes

"If you disconnect, he can't even touch you"

CannabisOverlord8 votes

Cant stand people that say that, "Hug turret" "Dont fight him" "Why do you only have 40 cs at 10 minutes?"

The Whamboozler7 votes

Well I mean... if you're going to disregard all advice given then I don't know what you want from this post other than to bitch.

I personally feel panth is a perfect example of what an early game bully champ should be. He's very powerful in lane and needs to be respected, but if you just hug tower, play like a bitch and whether the storm, he'll fall off and be pretty useless. Now, he has the tools to get ahead anyway. He's good at tower diving and ganking other lanes with his ult... but that is the whole point. He is TRYING to get a huge lead early because his lategame is pretty trash unless he's huge.

So the name of the game isn't "beat this guy in lane" the name of the game is "don't let this guy become huge". Which is perfectly doable. I'm going to assume you disagree based on the rage post, and I'll admit his Q in particular is an old mechanic that can be a bit frustrating since you can't avoid it... but there are plenty of other champs with point and click damage spells... not all of them even super old like panth.

What do YOU feel is a better "strong early but falls off" champ? Because I'd say he's what they should be shooting for when they design those kinds of characters, not someone to rage at and nerf. If you nerf his early lane dominance he literally HAS nothing else. It's all he's really good for.

Chembaron Yamada7 votes

I don't think that Pantheon is a good example for the concept of a lane bully. Mostly because all his stuff is unavoidable.

His Q is point&click harass, his W is point&click CC. Granted, his E isn't point&click, but with his usual combo you are stunned while he is executing it anyway. If his whole play pattern is so extremely reliable, it feels kinda bad to lane against him. Being forced to sit under your tower the whole game trying to not interact with your opponent in any way is not fun gameplay.

Pantheon doesn't really give you the chance to interact with him. He is guaranteed to hit his stuff on you while you can't trade back alot because of his blocks.

Illaoi and Darius are pretty strong lane bullies, too. But they allow counterplay. You can play around their kit, dodge stuff and all. It is possible to lane against them. You have to be extremely careful while doing so and try to dodge as much as you can. But it is possible.

Pantheon is clearly outdated and needs a complete VGU soon.

AwesomeGuyDj7 votes

darius is the best example of a lane bully. His q requires positioning (to hit with blade) and is dodgeable, you need to land your pull to get off cripling strike, etc.

Knoyle2 votes

Might I ask your opinion on Illaoi?

AwesomeGuyDj4 votes

Illaio is kind of in the same boat as darius, although if you have sluggish base movement speed you can still play around darius, not so much with illaoi. (playing as someone like maokai is fucking cancer against her because your so slow.)

FeelsCampedMan6 votes

Because it's worthless advice

You cannot rely on your jungler in soloQ Buying armor is a no brainer but it doesn't make him any less of a lane bully Most games don't go to lategame nowadays which means he never DOES fall off usually You cannot trade with him, no brainer, but you also cannot CS without getting chunked every 4 seconds with no counterplay, and if you fight back you lose too,

The way to beat this champion is to concede lane, and let him massively out CS you because you cannot contest farm near him without taking serious damage, which is fucking asinine, he is by far the WORST example of what a lane bully should be, he has no meaningful counterplay since none of his abilities can be avoided and his passive + it's reset mechanics make it nearly impossible to trade with

He is a champion that WILL get ahead if he isn't ganked

Troll for Trump2 votes

I never get why people think "gank with you jgler" is a legitimate counter to someone in lane. It isn't. It's a team strategy, yes, but you can't force your jgler to help.

Ahristocats51 votes

just wait until he's oom

oh wait 45 mana cost xd

Whip it good34 votes

item 2033 xd

Jinzo Torrance28 votes

What? You don't like having 15-20 CS at 10 minutes?

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cinquino Show,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RF8rXEGu,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-06-04T12:05:53.642+0000)

What? You don't like having 1-2 CS at 30 minutes?

FTFY

Knoyle6 votes

thats pushinng it a bit too much don't you think?

LadyRenly12 votes

I don't think anyone is pretending he isn't a problem right now. You're creating a narrative for easy upvotes.

Tbh I find Pantheon better in the mid lane, the people are squishier so its much easier to snowball off of and your ult allows to gank either lane. (tank pantheon eww)

HateDaddy8 votes

{quoted}

I don't think anyone is pretending he isn't a problem right now. You're creating a narrative for easy upvotes.

Tbh I find Pantheon better in the mid lane, the people are squishier so its much easier to snowball off of and your ult allows to gank either lane. (tank pantheon eww)

Except statistics suggest he's far better top lane. Furthermore, people have downvoted me to hell and back the last 2-3 weeks anytime I've mentioned him as being busted despite his 54% winrate for the last forever. This board has a love affair for him that I'll never understand. Additionally, I didn't just create an narrative for easy upvotes because I actually put effort into explaining what's wrong with him, suggesting how to balance him and left the actual topic up for having real discussion.

HalcyonDweller11 votes

Isn't Pantheon on the rework list for a full VGU?

His kit is rather binary with old mechanics and visuals.

Orangesilk5 votes

Yes, but champions with kits that feel awful to play against and are slated for a full VGU are usually kept WEAK, not STRONG.

Chogath Urgot Corki Ryze

To treat Panth differently is rather hypocritical.

Warpes7 votes

I can't believe this is even a thread...

More low elo players who don't know how to deal with his very clear cut weaknesses, and would rather cry for nerfs than learning them.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

I can't believe this is even a thread...

More low elo players who don't know how to deal with his very clear cut weaknesses, and would rather cry for nerfs than learning them.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Okay super smurf, let's see what rank you really are? Diamond 1? Masters? Challenger? Go on now, link me to your ultra secret account.

Let's just assume you are some super ultra mega diamond 1 smurf for a second though: what are pantheons clear cut weaknesses?

TimX24968B9 votes

sustain and falling off. not to mention his shield doesn't block abilities, just autos.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

sustain and falling off. not to mention his shield doesn't block abilities, just autos.

Yet that doesn't seem to be working, does it? Otherwise he wouldn't have a 54% winrate.

Warpes13 votes

{quoted}

Yet that doesn't seem to be working, does it? Otherwise he wouldn't have a 54% winrate.

Sustain and falling off, not trying to duel him in lane like 90% of people who go against him do. But let's not forget...

Ganking him - since he's one of the most ridiculously vulnerable champs to a gank, in the entire freaking game.

Building early armor - since even a single cloth armor severely hampers his entire kit and everything he's supposed to do in lane. yes, even building this on a carry. get cloth/chain 1st back.

Waiting it out/give up farm - don't try to do anything except farm til level 9, and give some up if u have to. by then he's useless if he doesn't have a single kill. and better by far to lose some farm than snowball him.

Waiting til he's oom - again, sustain helps here, cloth armor helps here, corrupting pot helps here. Once he's oom, he cannot do jack shit to you. you can all in him, farm at this point, push him out of lane, do whatever. This should be common sense, but you'd be surprised how many idiots who don't understand this very simple concept.

Roaming - if you're really countered, and can't do anything, can't farm, etc. leave the damn lane. nothing says u can't go gank mid, give the enemy jungler a hard time, tp bot, farm jungle camps for your gold, etc. and giving up a turret but getting a double kill elsewhere is worth. what a crazy concept

And most importantly... as one poster elsewhere in this thread mentioned, stop fucking picking champs that are easily countered by him. - Especially if you don't have a clue how to deal with him. Right now the current top lane meta just so happens to be a bunch of champs that are countered by him (which is responsible for his current high win rate... gee, imagine that). Stop picking those champs.

Champs like, oh I don't know Jax...

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=HateDaddy+

Crys about Pantheon... plays Jax who Pantheon is a gigantic counter to. What a surprise.

I reiterate my fucking facepalm.

LankPants5 votes

I reckon you increase the mana cost on his spear to something around 70 and give him a mana refund for killing targets with it. It's probably a gutting but that playstyle just shouldn't be allowed to exist.

1995 2017RiP Eva2 votes

"All lanes bullies make effort to win the lane"

hmm lets see

Darius E-W-Q ha i trade for your half hp and i heal any damage you do to me plus HA my passive does damage to you even when i do nothing right now so much skill so much effort reminds me your example with pantheon...

hmm lets continue

Fiora HA 20 mana cost Q haaa PROCK true damage based on your HP HAAA plus i heal too HAAAAA oh what cc? nah dodge it haaaaaa much effort

Galio yo man 3 dorans ring wave clear i feel so skilled right now plus i can gank with my semi half ultimate HAA

Gragas Brah i can do the same FIGHT ME

Lissandra Gotta spam that Q and if you close distance NOPE root you and i am out lol

Renekton BRO E-W-Q-E out BRAAAAAAAA EFFORT

And all this champions are new....so you were saying?

Sulghunter30 votes

Lissandra Do you realize just how fast spamming Q without waiting for your passive will make you go OOM?

1995 2017RiP Eva1 votes

item 1056 item 2033

What is that? BRAAAA

GULAG 4 U24 votes

The sound of you QQing on the forums.

1995 2017RiP Eva2 votes

last time i check you people QQ about pantheon lol

GULAG 4 U17 votes

Except I didn't QQ, I simply made an example of how to organize a post correctly and make it devoid of salt.

1995 2017RiP Eva1 votes

you are in a post about pantheon and how OP he is and you agree with the poster that pantheon is OP

That the defintion of QQ

Now go QQ and try to act edgy so you can pretend that you dont QQ...

GULAG 4 U11 votes

Oh, except I wasn't whining, I was stating that Pantheon's lategame is no longer poor because it his bottom 50 and not something like 45%. I stated fact, not emotional kneejerk.

DJMason885 votes

The others have to actually get in range of you to do anything, im not counting Liss because your statement on that is idiotic, pantheon can just spear spear spear without having to get in range until he can all in you.

1995 2017RiP Eva1 votes

well they get in range but their kit allow them to take no damage...

Tell me again about why liss is idiotic? ah because you play liss and you somehow manage to lose vs pantheon...you my friend is why riot should never hear boards about balance..

DJMason887 votes

Panth is the only one who wouldn't take damage if you just auto him. The others would. Liss is idiotic because spamming q is a great way to go oom and lose your defense tools.

1995 2017RiP Eva1 votes

defense tool? her root cost 50 mana...come again when you have an argument

DJMason886 votes

If shes oom she can't cast anything... Even if she gets passive she has to choose between her escape, her root or use her ult, which has a long cd until you get cdr.

Cosmic Warper11 votes

{quoted}

"All lanes bullies make effort to win the lane"

hmm lets see

Darius E-W-Q ha i trade for your half hp and i heal any damage you do to me plus HA my passive does damage to you even when i do nothing right now so much skill so much effort reminds me your example with pantheon...

hmm lets continue

Fiora HA 20 mana cost Q haaa PROCK true damage based on your HP HAAA plus i heal too HAAAAA oh what cc? nah dodge it haaaaaa much effort

Galio yo man 3 dorans ring wave clear i feel so skilled right now plus i can gank with my semi half ultimate HAA

Gragas Brah i can do the same FIGHT ME

Lissandra Gotta spam that Q and if you close distance NOPE root you and i am out lol

Renekton BRO E-W-Q-E out BRAAAAAAAA EFFORT

And all this champions are new....so you were saying?

i'd rather duel any of those champions than have to deal with a pantheon that takes 0 skill and out trades nearly every champion.

1995 2017RiP Eva1 votes

yeah ok stay bronze if you think pantheon outtrade any of this champs...idk why i even bother with silver players my god after what you say i am done lol i am out too much stupidity for me to handle..

DJMason889 votes

Pantheon is the number one counter to Fiora, he will always out trade her. Pantheon can easily out trade the rest as well. Even your insults are stupid, you say "stay in bronze" and then go on to say "why i even bother with silver players" ??

Mira Arya Enthe17 votes

"Stay bronze"

Statistics are pulled from Platinum or greater. Argument defeated. Moving on.

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