Nerfing the late game of a Hypercarry while keeping his early game Insane

D357R0Y3R·Nov 29, 2018·77 votes·18,135 views

Jax Grandmaster's Might (R) passive damage lowered from 100/160/220 to 100/140/180

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/368166051432890371.png?v=1

78 Comments

SalronNov 29, 201852 votes

Riot doesn't want champions to be weak at any stage of the game anymore

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 30, 20188 votes

They never have TBH.

Hell, even the "worst" character early had decent stats. It's a shame because hypercarries/lane bullies will always be hampered by having ok early/ok late despite a large advantage in either category.

ModAcademy KaynNov 30, 201810 votes

If you're implying the ability to kill someone, that's now what having a bad late game means. Bad late game implies that your ability to do your job is impeded by aspects of late game not found in early game. Pantheon falls off late, because his entire gimmick is jumping on someone, and pulling his full rotation off unimpeded, poking them out of lane.

Outside of that, he lacks any real tools in a teamfight. His engage or ability to pick folk out isn't bad, and where a majority of his skill cap comes from, but there are better folk to bring for picks. His scalings can't outpace Armor gain, and his passive is less effective in chaotic teamfights, where single autos don't matter as much as getting hit by abilities.

Xerath is fantastic late game, because his kit is fantastic in the grouping and sieging phases of the game. His range gives him plenty of safety ontop of a team, along with his ability to clear waves safely. His range allows him to do his job until someone jumps on him, while Panth's job requires him to be in a very active danger zone normally.

Of course, this is the assumption that what you mean by an "Ok late" is that they are still prevalent threats. It's just that scaling champions are going to outclass them heavily at that point in the game. It's where early game champions need to start thinking more of how to outplay to win, vice versa of early game, where late game champions are required more to outplay to win, against early game champions.

Somber RitesNov 30, 201817 votes

{quoted}

Riot doesn't want champions to be weak at any stage of the game anymore

Unless it's Yorick.

Z3SleeperNov 30, 201819 votes

They didn't nerf Yorick they just "bugfixed" him :^)

INoble KnightIDec 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Somber Rites,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REtoWqcq,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-11-30T03:46:16.940+0000)

Unless it's Yorick.

or Singed

UltrysDec 1, 20181 votes

Malzahar says hello!

SpecterVonBarenNov 30, 20182 votes

The players don't want that. Remember how assassin players complained about being irrelevant late game if they didn't snowball? Remember how ADC players complained about having no agency in the early game? Players have complained about their champ being too at a stage of the game forever, don't act like Riot doing this isn't based on player feedback.

SaezioNov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

The players don't want that. Remember how assassin players complained about being irrelevant late game if they didn't snowball? Remember how ADC players complained about having no agency in the early game? Players have complained about their champ being too at a stage of the game forever, don't act like Riot doing this isn't based on player feedback.

well they don't seem to hear all players the same though. And what kind of idiots would just do what their playerbase tells them? For example tank players have been complaining since runes reforged about the damage creep and how tanks are irrelevant but Riot does not listen because strong tanks mean longer games. ADC players complained for 1 month because some mages got to be played in bot a little bit and riot within 2 patches rechanged half the shit they had done. NOT EVEN GIVING IT HALF A SEASON FOR PEOPLE TO ADAPT. Meanwhile all tank items are still useless :)

KmSneakyNov 30, 20182 votes

ever heard of mid viktor ?

Sire HippingtonNov 30, 20181 votes

Wouldn't really say that, there are still lots of champs that fall off hard later on...

The SpikoNov 30, 20182 votes

nasus and veigar early like this comment PS : nasus is now shit in every stage of the game , early , mid and even late with this dammage fiesta he die 2 sconds into every teamfight yesterday i was killed by a not fed vayn on 3 secs whil i had 420 armor xD ( true dammage problems )

Biggest MO3 FanNov 30, 201820 votes

Jax isnt the problem , the problem are the items he uses. Every item he builds is just so good on him , Jax has always been this way , this champion hasnt even been touched for a while..... Its just that the items he gets make him this amazing beast of a champion. His kit is fine , hell its REALLY OLD , and hes still relevant. Hes not overloaded like Akali Camille Irelia , the meta just really , REALLLLYYY suits him. conqueror + item 3078 item 3748 item 3053 item 3508 , make him amazing right now. As a die hard Jax player , i know hes strong , but its not his kit , its the items. Plz dont do anything else to jax because riot doesnt know how to balance items , i love this champ.

DeusVultNov 30, 201818 votes

Jax isnt the problem

its the items he uses

every item is too good on him

he has always been this way

So let me close that Ouroboros and say that Jax is the problem, if every item is too good on him and this has always been the case, then it isnt the items that break the champ, but the champ being broken from the start

Biggest MO3 FanNov 30, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Jax isnt the problem

its the items he uses

every item is too good on him

he has always been this way

So let me close that Ouroboros and say that Jax is the problem, if every item is too good on him and this has always been the case, then it isnt the items that break the champ, but the champ being broken from the start

Has jax always been broken??? Wow i must have missed those times , because people havent complained about jax until around 3-4 months ago... Because jax has ~~ALWAYS~~ been this late game hyper carry , but now its even stronger. Hes basically a melee carry and has always been this way , its just that now , he kills even faster while being tankier. and youre noticing it now because there is so much shit one shotting you now , that the only way to counter it , its do a lot of dmg yourself and stay alive. and jax can provide that. Jax is not the problem , its the fact that item 3508 lets him have w, counter strike on like almost no cooldown. The fact that item 3053 gives him ad , a FAT SHIELD , and a lot of health so he gets to last long in team fights. Compare his new build to the old one , item 3078 item 3748 item 1001 (whatever you choose) item 3026 , A lot of ad and sustain , while the old jax build was something like this item 3153 item 3146 (same thing) item 3124 , he would pop you like a balloon if he just sneezed on you , but he got deleted as well. This old build made him the best duelist in the game , but now with these new items , hes a better version of what he used to be. Plz , how is jax the problem , his kit has lasted this long because its effective and used to be overall balanced , but the new items make him a solo que monster.

Flawless FetusNov 30, 20183 votes

I wasn't here for season1, but he's been more than strong since season2. Lol.

woodvsmurphNov 30, 20182 votes

Sorry but only very low elo players or "for reddit" players built him like you suggest he used to be built. There would be more hp/bruiser and tank items in the build to give him some durability.

And jax was very solid before essence reaver with a perpetual lurking threat due to the combo of hyperscaling coupled with how strong counterstrike and passive makes him in laning phase. Oh... and then the fact q+w+sheen proc matches the burst a burst damage lane bully can put out on you while you out-dps them. And they can't trade back into you when you jump them due to you having e going to block their damage AND stun them so you can walk away before they can trade back.

And jax's ult basically turns item 3053 into + item 3082 (exaggerating slightly perhaps). But this is why jax gets so much value out of bruiser items (hp+dmg).

Essence reaver may take jax over the top, but he was already well and truly at the top without it.

KVbqbFsC8eNov 30, 201810 votes

Jax was not a problem before Conqueror became a thing.

KmSneakyNov 30, 20184 votes

Like he wasn't a problem when dodge runes were a thing, or before his rework, when he could stack hextech gunblades and get 3k hp while building none , and sustain like crazy while hitting like a truck... yeah right, jax has never been a problem.

KVbqbFsC8eNov 30, 20183 votes

I'm talking within the context of the last two seasons or so. Him being a problem back when dodge was a thing could not be more irrelevant.

KmSneakyNov 30, 20183 votes

my point is jax has always been a problem, whatever patch it was, he just benefits from every stat too well, on top of having too much free stats in his kit, nocturne is a more balanced version of a kit with innate stats imo. (even tho his press R in the current meta is stupid :X)

SaezioNov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

my point is jax has always been a problem, whatever patch it was, he just benefits from every stat too well, on top of having too much free stats in his kit, nocturne is a more balanced version of a kit with innate stats imo. (even tho his press R in the current meta is stupid :X)

Jax was never a problem. Look at season 2,3,4,5,6 jax stats, he was never this dominant. Games now are all about 2v2 and 3v3 constantly and guess who the best champ is for that. And games now are decided before the first 5v5 or baron so jax never has to play in a teamfight so he dominates. Also the fact that towers hit like wet noodles doesn't help.

DessemNov 30, 20184 votes

Wait, turrets do damage? I thought those were just cosmetic vfx?

Beast BrawlerNov 30, 20181 votes

Fervor? I recall he was one of the big fervor of battle abusers, it just wasn't this bad.

Sire HippingtonNov 30, 20181 votes

he has always been this way

Pretty sure this part reffered to his kit and not his power and itemsynergie

woodvsmurphNov 30, 20183 votes

Jax isn't the problem it's that every item is too good on him? Dude that exactly proves it IS jax that is the problem.

The guy gets more free stats in his kit than most champs in the game and yet has a very strong laning phase where you have to play overly agro and screw up to really get punished 1v1. If say renekton enjoyed the same late game ability to compete that jax had early while also having the advantage level early that a jax enjoys late... let's say I'd be 2 tiers higher (gold -> diamond).

If the problem were the items... they'd make any champ broken. They dodn't though. They make JAX stupid op. To be fair... yeah essence reaver passive is a big part of the problem - and it makes both jax and renekton way stronger. But the reason jax is so op with it is because it essentially gives him perma-e. Which gives him aa immunity and 75% aoe damage reduction. Jax's counterstrike is pure insanity due to the stats it gives, that he can still aa and use other abilities while it's up, how low a cd it is even w/o essence, and the fact it stuns people in an aoe at the end of counterstrike or when jax re-activates it. Could you imagine garen w (damage reduction) giving an aoe stun after the damage reduction wore off? Could you imagine renekton w giving 75% aoe damage reduction and aa immunity for 4 sec after his stun on you wore off? That would be completely broken. But jax has this - and that's what makes him so strong even in laning phase.

Then there's the fact he gets resistances for building damage. Or the fact his high base attack speed plus his passive gives him better synergy and more value out of attack speed items than other champs with lower base attack speed get out of the same items.

And then there's the combo of spammable cheap mana cost w plus his 3rd hit passive of his ult giving him lots of extra dps, sheen/triforce proc spam, and essentially lets him match burst champs' (like renekton) burst damage early on in laning phase via sheen while out-dps'ing them. Which basically comes down to... the early game champ actually has to OUTPLAY early in order to really find windows to abuse jax in lane 1v1. If jax just plays safe, there's not much you can do to punish him without ganks and jax WILL outscale. If jax lost the aoe stun at the end of his e, that would open up far more chances to punish him and get off good trades. Now this doesn't mean jax is unbeatable in lane or can't be punished, but it does mean that he done messed up and his opponent took proper advantage of that... playing better than he did in order to punish him for that. Oh, and then there's the fact that he does heavy mixed damage early on which makes defensive itemization weaker vs him than it is vs other champs that deal mostly physical or mostly magic damage.

And there's part of the problem with so many players. They don't have a clue what they're talking about or THINK critically before they say something. Google told me. Hell, you could see it with diamond (I think) elo YouTuber showing off jax build smurfing in silver. He had no clue why essence reaver jax was op, so he failed to make any use of it at all and won purely off superior skill than the other team had coupled with better teammates. Why is this good on jax? What are jax's strength's and weaknesses? What combo's are most effective vs opponent X? When should I fight them based on itemization, state of the lane (shoving, neutral, etc., jg intervention possibilities)?

AyzevNov 30, 20181 votes

It does not matter what the reason is behind why a champion is too strong. If it's too strong, it needs to be nerfed. And sure, this might lead to the champion becoming even weaker later down the line when their items get changed, but that's not a reason to not nerf him - it just means that champion will need to be buffed back up again when the time comes.

Sire HippingtonNov 30, 20181 votes

The issue is that if you just keep band-aid fixing symptoms, you tend to avoid adressing the actuall problem nehind the issues, which is one of the reasons for league beein in it's current bad state.

Also, Riot historically does usually forget about the 'buff back up again' part..

Z3SleeperNov 30, 20184 votes

Let me use an extremely exaggerated hypothetical situation to describe what you're saying.

In this hypothetical situation, every fighter has a perfect 50% winrate and identical pick rates. All is well in the world. The game devs decide to spice things up and introduce new items or other features to the class.

Suddenly, a few fighters have 90% winrates while the rest are still at a perfect 50% even with the new features (impossible ik, but stick with me).

So tell me, in this hypothetical situation where everyone is balanced with these new toys except a few outliers, do we nerf the new toys or nerf the outliers?

Need Gold 4 TentNov 30, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Biggest MO3 Fan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REtoWqcq,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-30T03:37:59.331+0000)

isnt the problem , the problem are the items he uses. Every item he builds is just so good on him , Jax has always been this way , this champion hasnt even been touched for a while..... Its just that the items he gets make him this amazing beast of a champion. His kit is fine , hell its REALLY OLD , and hes still relevant. Hes not overloaded like , the meta just really , REALLLLYYY suits him. conqueror + , make him amazing right now. As a die hard Jax player , i know hes strong , but its not his kit , its the items. Plz dont do anything else to jax because riot doesnt know how to balance items , i love this champ.

Now that you mention it, it is kind of true. Jax falls in and out of metas while not being changed since the dodge chance removal. He being weak or strong is the symptom of a meta and not the creator of one.

woodvsmurphNov 30, 20181 votes

Jax's q gets on a crazy low cd. Jax's w offers actually crazy high burst damage for a very low cost (mana-wise) early game. Jax's e is what makes him strong early game along with the massive attack speed he gets from his passive. Several seconds where your opponent has 0 chance to fight back against you oh... and then it stuns you too. Imagine darius getting a 500hp shield for 5 sec level 1 if he lands his e on you. Or a renekton getting 200 armor for the next 4 sec after stunning you... in the early game with rank 1 w. How the heck do you trade into that? This is pretty close to the power jax has with his e in the early game.

So uh... yeah jax's kit is the problem. His kit is what MAKES those items op. Essence reaver + jax's passive (attack speed) + attack speed from triforce + essence reaver = your ult gives you essentially eternal 75% aoe damage reduction and complete immunity to aa's for the duration of essence reaver because your e is always available. Sterak and titanic or any dmg plus hp item - jax also gets resistances from them. The equivalent would be like if darius's kit gave him free ad and attack speed for building say... randuin's omen or deadman's plate. Again... jax's kit is what makes the items op with him. Jax and garen get more free stats than most toplaners built into their kit.

Free attack speed, nearly-free spammable w with high base damage and ability to proc sheen/triforce, percent aoe damage reduction and aa immunity, bonus resistances cuz you built damage, more free damage via ult 3rd hit passive. Percent max hp regen, true damage to villain, % damage reduction, percentage armor pen about equal to a cleaver, % missing hp execute.

To be sure, essence is what takes him over the top as far as jax is concerned, but make no mistake even without it he's one of the most stacked champs in the game yet pays very little for that scaling compared to what he should pay for it in the laning phase... unless you're just bad compared to your lane opponent.

d0riyahNov 30, 201810 votes

Jax is broken early game purely because of conqueror. His e in laning phase was never a problem. But because you can proc conqueror by hitting minions (which also boosts his passive) he's unduelable if you let him hit minions for a while. and before you say "but you shouldnt change a rune based on 1 champ" bitch conqueror busts so many champions and is way more toxic than Fervor. Literally replace Conq with Fervor and you can fix Irelia, Jax, Darius, Tryndamere, and all the other busted champions that use conqueror.

PrinceOfStormsNov 30, 20189 votes

Just delete conqueror tbh, that rune singlehandedly made tanks useless outside of the support role.

NevrankroatonNov 30, 20186 votes

If you want to nerf Jax in lane, you just nerf Conqueror. Guarantee it will save lives.

Princess BunheadNov 30, 20183 votes

I'd wish they'd just remove it, or better yet, rework it to something not broken, that benefits bruisers more than AA'ers...

Need Gold 4 TentNov 30, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Princess Bunhead,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REtoWqcq,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-11-30T09:25:27.329+0000)

I'd wish they'd just remove it, or better yet, rework it to something not broken, that benefits bruisers more than AA'ers...

Because bruisers literally had no keystone for nearly an entire season?

Edit: Ah, you meant reworking it. I'd say bruisers benefit heavily from Conq even without being autoattack based. The AD applies to their abilities, and bruisers do weave autoattacks into their trading patterns anyway.

Sire HippingtonNov 30, 20182 votes

TbH, Bruisers have enough runes to use, the main issue were the related stats, which got fixed with the rune starts this preseason.

PoskeNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If you want to nerf Jax in lane, you just nerf Conqueror. Guarantee it will save lives.

Conqueror is dogshit tho

What is all this conq hate on boards Riot should really delete the first fking number of conqueror because 99% of comunity doesnt understand which number mathers

NevrankroatonNov 30, 20181 votes

Conqueror is what allow some bruisers to be so dominant in top lane, it is also one of the offender in the case of Irelia burst early on.

It is honestly a dumb rune that is here because bruiser main complained about wanting something because they want free stat/dmg possibility. What does conqueror more than "You gain more dmg, congrats", some people even try to pretend fervor of battle was 'cool'.

Make it different, see if bruiser really need more damage or more about something giving them the possibility to be enhanced in fight.

Fire BlaustoiseNov 30, 20181 votes

It is honestly a dumb rune that is here because bruiser main complained about wanting something because they want free stat/dmg possibility.

No, they complained cause they had no keystones planned for them unlike marksmen, mages, assassins, tanks & enchanters. And cause they were pushed away from toplane... tanks were the strongest (dont know for low elos tho).

SaezioNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Conqueror is dogshit tho

What is all this conq hate on boards Riot should really delete the first fking number of conqueror because 99% of comunity doesnt understand which number mathers

Well it's a lot easier to pick jax and never have to worry about your damage being absorbed by big tanks. His Achilles heel had always been teamfighting against cc tanks but now he doesn't have to because he can batter them. Malp/Sion etc have a lot harder time containing him than they used to, or singed

PoskeNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well it's a lot easier to pick jax and never have to worry about your damage being absorbed by big tanks. His Achilles heel had always been teamfighting against cc tanks but now he doesn't have to because he can batter them. Malp/Sion etc have a lot harder time containing him than they used to, or singed

Jax is also subpar but whatever

There are around 10 better toplaners 4 of which can be flexed in other roles to

SaezioNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Jax is also subpar but whatever

There are around 10 better toplaners 4 of which can be flexed in other roles to

Well I would say ranking 10 is pretty good, especially considering Irelia Camile Urgot Aatrox Viktor are busted and take 5 spots just alone and can be flexed to 1 more position at least.

Sire HippingtonNov 30, 20184 votes

Also, nerfing jax wehn the main issue is the combination of conqueror and his items(especially titanic hydra with the extra AA-reset)

SexualNutsNov 30, 20184 votes

As a Jax main since S2 I would much rather see the following:

Nerf conqueror. Just combine it with old fervor or remove the stacking mechanism on minions. The bonus AD it does is so good for Jax and his attack speed. Nerf the item 3748 on-hit base damage and active damage. Why does this item do so much damage? With Jax's innate attack speed this item becomes just OP. This item needs to give a bit more HP, less base damage and perhaps a little more scaling damage. Nerf item 3078 please. 200% base AD as bonus damage is just too much. Give the item 10 more attack damage and 50 more HP, and lower the bonus damage to 175% please please. Change item 3508 too. This item is completely busted on Jax, Yi etc if they are fed. It turns them into unstoppable powerhouses. The CD reduction effect needs to be halved and then lower the cost. This will make it more appealing for mana heavy ADC's in the late game too, so it would be win-win.

This alone would completely fix Jax (and Irelia while they are at it).

HOWEVER, as Riot CLEARLY refuses to take a logical, intelligent approach, why not nerf Jax's early game instead of his late? Here are examples of a nerf that could actually fix Jax (if you absolutely don't want to touch the actual problems which is the items and conqueror)...

Nerf his Q range by 50 (making it harder for Jax to leap onto champs who use their flash away from him). Nerf his E CD by 1 second at all ranks. Nerf his ult scaling resistances (when he builds straight AD he gains up to 200 bonus armor...). Nerf his base attack damage by a small amount (which would directly nerf jungle jax).

Any approach from above would be a good way to nerf Jax without changing his identity of hypercarry. Why Why WHY have they nerfed his ult damage at late game? It's not even going to affect the problem part of Jax which is that he's too safe to carry with - I enjoy Jax because he is a scaling monster but it can be hard to scale with an early game that is meh.I'm actually lost for words...

Tychusfindlay918Nov 30, 20183 votes

Those nerfs arent gunna do shit other than help tanks and heavy bruisers a wee bit against jax.

Z3SleeperNov 30, 20185 votes

Except late game ain't really where tanks shine. By that time he's already shredding through them. Losing out on 40 damage every third hit isn't gonna stop him at level 16+.

Targeting his late game is just dumb in general. His early game should be his weak point but due to runes and other changes that "weakness" is heavily glossed over now.

PepsiM0nNov 30, 20182 votes

This a response to low elo Jax making it to a 54% win rate. The champ doesn't need a nerf, riot needs to fix the game sate and Jax will fall in place.