Now im not a Taliyah main or anything...in fact i only played her 1 time when she came out and havnt played her since.
But im confused here. I remember when she came out that in the reveal and in the champion spotlight they talked about how she was designed to clear waves fast and be able to roam quickly. So why nerf a champ that is doing exactly what you designed them to do?
Sightless6619 votesBecause she's doing it a bit too well. They want her to clear waves fast, not insanely fast. This nerf leaves her with pushing that is still more than good enough to do her job, but slows it down a bit. That's perfectly fine.
Wheatloaf9 votesIt's similar to why Ziggs' Ult lost its bonus damage to minions back in the mage update. Just because a champion has a specific intended strength doesn't mean they'll never get nerfed there; Riot will just try to avoid it if reasonably possible.
BakedLotion2 votesBecause she's doing it a bit too well. They want her to clear waves fast, not insanely fast. This nerf leaves her with pushing that is still more than good enough to do her job, but slows it down a bit. That's perfectly fine.
Her waveclear sucks tho... The aoe is so tiny and she can't get to the caster minions without using q twice on the melee ones. And if you do that, then your entire lane turns into worked ground... Meanwhile Ahri/syndra/orianna/any mage presses Q twice and the entire wave is gone????
Sightless664 votesIt's a lot easier than you give it credit for. Throw the Q into the caster minions by standing at an angle, hit all 3, kill them with the first few rocks, and have a couple left over for the frontline minions. I can get a 5 second clear off with just 1 Q, really easily. I don't agree at all with your assertion that she have trouble waveclearing. My experience both personally and watching pro play tells me otherwise.
I think that if you need to use multiple Qs to get a clear off, or if you can't hit the 3 caster minions without killing the melee minions first, then I think you're making mechanical errors when you play Taliyah.
BakedLotion2 votesIt's a lot easier than you give it credit for. Throw the Q into the caster minions by standing at an angle, hit all 3, kill them with the first few rocks, and have a couple left over for the frontline minions. I can get a 5 second clear off with just 1 Q, really easily. I don't agree at all with your assertion that she have trouble waveclearing. My experience both personally and watching pro play tells me otherwise.
I think that if you need to use multiple Qs to get a clear off, or if you can't hit the 3 caster minions without killing the melee minions first, then I think you're making mechanical errors when you play Taliyah.
Then your enemies arent punishing you for getting out of position... Youre gonna have to go near the river bushes to even "get at an angle"
Sightless662 votesI think you are completely wrong. You don't need to go anywhere near that far out. I can walk very slightly to the side of my own minions and get a clear on the backline. Very natural positioning, very safe, no more punishible than normal laning, particularly since it still leaves me in a good position to aim at my opponent or the frontline minions instead if needed.
Seriously, this really is not as anywhere near hard as you're claiming it is. Watch a pro game. See how safely they can push.
Warmanreaper10 votesCause her Q at lvl 1 takes 50% of their hp , its too easy to land the "skillshot" and mine field does a bit too much damage.. ( about 4/5x more than it just detonating
VvVVvV29 votes%50 of the minions health or the champs health?...because the nerf was only on minion damage.
Astôlfo8 votesHe means getting hit by every single Q pellet level 1 + resultant TLD proc would half-health a normal squishy target in lane. Except if they get hit by every pellet, they're garbage and deserve to get half-healthed.
NineTailedMystic4 votesExcept when she uses Q she gets an immediate %MS boost from the worked ground, so your minions have to be readily available to be cover, or you can make her miss at most 1 rock if you fake her out.
Astôlfo4 votesExcept said worked ground also locks herself out from said Q for like the next 3 minutes?
NineTailedMystic3 votesShe gets a weaker, lower mana cost Q. Not locked out.
Astôlfo5 votesWhich is essentially worthless except for occasional poke and/or securing a CS? So it's virtually locked out.
Wonderlands3 votesExcept with both players pushing back and forth, she has the whole lane's worth of unworked ground to use.
SongsToBreakUpTo2 votesExcept when she uses Q she gets an immediate %MS boost from the worked ground, so your minions have to be readily available to be cover, or you can make her miss at most 1 rock if you fake her out.
That doesn’t make sense. If Taliyah uses Q to destroy the minions, she won’t have it available to hit you. The cooldown is too high at its early levels for it to be up that fast. Guessing you don’t play her, or you’d know this. So, I don’t hold it against you. I’m just telling you facts though.
NineTailedMystic1 votesThe guy I was responding to was saying
He means getting hit by every single Q pellet level 1 + resultant TLD proc would half-health a normal squishy target in lane. Except if they get hit by every pellet, they're garbage and deserve to get half-healthed.
When it's really Taliyah's fault if she misses because she gets a good size %MS boost since the worked ground appears immediately. Her using it to clear casters level 1 had nothing to do with my previous post other than hoping they're close to take cover.
SongsToBreakUpTo2 votesThe guy I was responding to was saying Except if they get hit by every pellet, they're garbage and deserve to get half-healthed.
When it's really Taliyah's fault if she misses because she gets a good size %MS boost since the worked ground appears immediately. Her using it to clear casters level 1 had nothing to do with my previous post other than hoping they're close to take cover.
but why wouldn’t they be close to take cover? If you are moving so far away from your minions at lvl 1, you deserve to be hit by every single pellet of a Taliyah Q. That’s what we are both saying. Either she uses her Q to kill the minions, in which case, it’s on cooldown until the next wave comes or she waits to try to get a good Q on the enemy, in which case they will probably take one or two hits before retreating back behind minions. The instant bonus move speed has nothing to do with it, especially not at early levels and before Rylai’s. It’s incredibly easy to retreat behind minions unless you overextended when you shouldn’t have, in which case any opponent would be able to get a good punish off on you; not just Taliyah.
LadyRenly2 votesCause her Q at lvl 1 takes 50% of their hp , its too easy to land the "skillshot" and mine field does a bit too much damage.. ( about 4/5x more than it just detonating
all taliyah is good for is her early game damage, she falls off hard
Warmanreaper2 votesYes, exactly what I just said. At lvl 1 her damage is insane for a champion like that and there's plenty of ways to not have her fall so bad.
Astôlfo4 votesOr you could just dodge the Q.
AHeroNamedHawke15 votesOr you could just dodge the Q.
You can't say "just dodge" and make a champion completely immune to all balancing arguments
Thresh, Ezreal, Lee, Ahri, Morgana, Blitz, Jhin, etc are all top picks in Plat+ right now, yet are all skillshot reliant
Why do they get picked? The enemy should be able to "just dodge", right? These are all high elo games, with highly skilled players, yet they can't "just dodge"?
Could it be that skillshots are not a one way test of your positioning, but also the opponent's skill in aiming them? You ignorant handbasket?
Votable Jester5 votesTalking about level 1 Taliyah, "just dodge" pretty much sums it up. Move to a position where she can no longer hit you (behind minions usually), and hit her back with your own harass. You should at least go even if you manage at least that, assuming she hit you with ~2 rocks before you made it to cover.
Don't forget that you can hit your enemy back as they hit you. She has to stand in a very specific area to keep hitting you with her Q, making skillshot harass extremely easy to land against her in turn.
dEAdbUs4 votesMah boi. Master of dodging. Why are you here, not training for upcoming World matches? If we'll follow your logic, then we can dodge everything, and skillshots are just useless.
Pls read something about human reaction speed and how it's limited. Then read about networks and ping.
Astôlfo1 votesNetworks and ping are irrelevant when it comes to balance. Get a better computer. Don't like that? Then quit whining.
Human reaction speed is also irrelevant in this argument because it's nowhere near the edges of a normal human's reaction speed.
And I never said I was good at it personally. But I've seen enough pro-play/high-level clips to realize it's not a problem to dodge quite easily. And I can dodge it myself fairly easily against inexperienced garbage Taliyah players.
dEAdbUs4 votesSee bro, you're talking about things you know nothing. PC has nothing to do with ping, it's all about network.
Both ping and human reaction speed are relevant as game design values, that's why we don't see 0.1 sec casts in game. Annie's R has 0.25 sec cast - and it's about human reaction edge. Because it gives little but still a chance to dodge her ult. Make it's cast time less and nobody will ever dodge it.
You've seen vids where pros dodge different stuff because it's difficult and even they can't do it all time, otherwise there was no sense make those vids. Vids are showing superior plays, not common. So dodging not that's easy.
Should I say that human reaction speed changes with time and depends on how ready he's? So if player dodged something it doesn't mean he'll dodge it again.
Astôlfo1 votesMy bad, didn't think through fully on my first comment. Unless you live out in the woods or somewhere with terrible connection, you could just buy a better router/modem/whatever it is.
Ping is only slightly relevant when it comes to the fastest-speed combos/abilities. Except there are very few of those. And Taliyah has not a single one of them.
Human reaction speed is again, only relevant with the fastest speed-combos/abilities. Except once again, Taliyah has not a single one of them.
I'm not watching montages, I'm watching normal playthrough videos. Also of course they don't dodge it 100% of the time, that'd be silly. But when top-level players who are equally good at landing as they are with dodging play against one another, it levels out to around 50% without any other influencing factors. Which is fine.
Okay? I fail to see how that's important at all. The ability cast/perform/etc time are always the same. If he's not paying attention and got caught out, that's his fault.
dEAdbUs2 votesHow ping can be slightly relevant if even Riot themselves wrote huge post comparing wifi and cable connections and how it affects on players performance? Check official site this post was in August I guess.
Fast combos imho depends on how fast you can press buttons, not on your reaction speed. Reaction speed is how fast information get through your sense organs into your brain. Combos is different thing - it's signals coming out from your brain not into your brain. You need to know that player will always do his own combo faster than he reacts on other players skillshots, because visual signals are much slower than hands signals, because eyes need to "remake" what they see into electric signals for brain.
Von Kaiser7 votesI was insanely sad as a Tali main when I saw the nerfs since her last nerfs already made her from "Op when played right" to "Good when played right" which I think is more or less a healthy place to be. At the same time though, all they did was nerf e's base dmg by around 10 so I'm not to salty about that since it's not like you want to max it first anyway (even though it is your main damage source and it's dmg is already reduced for getting hit by additional Es). The Q nerf sucks kind hard but it'll just mean you gotta alter your play style a little. Mostly less early roams. I've never felt all too comfortable one shotting the entire caster line at lvl 1 anyway. Although I do hope that she gets some buffs to reflect her less powerful early roams but that's only because I want my fave champ to be op. I'm sure she wont fall off too much because of this.
Votable Jester4 votesI don't even play much Taliyah anymore, but I think the nerf on her Q was too hard. This will affect her mid and lategame waveclear as well. If they disliked the early waveclear, they could have just nerfed the % bonus to ~30% and the rank 1 damage by 5 (on the first rock, so ~15 overall before the multiplier change).
Keti3 votesLet's be real, taliyah is currently just an upgraded twisted fate. Her buffed Q lets her Insta clear the caster minions at level 1 and go straight to raptors for the counter jungle, and in general she can keep the wave cleared on a whim without any thought, even better than tf. On top of that, she has immense solo kill pressure, something tf basically does not have at high elo. And much MUCH better zone control than tf could even dream of.
Astôlfo6 votesBecause people whined and complained too much instead of learning how to play against her. Same as usual.
GULAG 4 U2 votesSame can be said against yasuo : ^)
Cosmic Warper2 votesBecause people whined and complained too much instead of learning how to play against her. Same as usual.
You can say that against any champion. Dumb argument
Astôlfo2 votesExcept only a larger number of people complain about a more popular champion.
Sure sometimes people complain about Garen or whatever but no one pays attention to those few.
DrCyanide5 votesA drastic comparison: Veigar's designed to 1-shot champions, but needless to say having him press R and delete a champion regardless of their HP and MR would be bad, so they cut it back to a level they feel is manageable.
I think they're fine with Taliyah clearing waves fast, but it might have been too fast.
inplane3 votesShe wasn't made to have a "Insta shove & roam card" like they added to her Q. She had to work for it. That means having to use E and W to catch people out of position and Q to chip them off once the time was right. Q wasn't to be depended on from the nature of the skill. It became inconsistent and annoying if it's used improperly.
Both Riot and the community have no idea how to balance her or how to even simply play her effectively. Nerfing her E renders her nearly unable to fulfill her purpose to roam anymore because catching people out in E and W wont do enough damage. It was fine before Lockout because even if the lane opponent did buy MR, it wouldn't sponge up the entire combo and allow a chance at a counter attack. It was strong for a reason and it was situational for a reason. She would only be oppressive if you let her become so. Champions like 
or 
would take a shit all over her because they can easily bypass her E minefield without triggering any part of it themselves.
If Lockout removal was handled better, this wouldn't have happened even if the Q bonus damage gets removed. E would still have the same high damage as it did and she would be able to punish well.
Solari Fortune2 votesShe Clearing the wave a little too fast too early
GenghisEmo5 votesThen again she has a weak point which is she can't farm fast if she is on worked ground. Which was a great check and balance.
However, E did deserve nerfs she got already... but now she gets yet more nerfs to E and a nerf to Q?
And they buff Lux, Jinx, MF, and other champs that don't really need a buff? Seems like the nerfs are literally because the diversity they created in S5 is long gone they are trying to shove new things down the throats of pros XD
VvVVvV3 votesAll the changes they make are directly targeted for competitive. They proved it by directly mentioning it in the patch notes in the details for Gnar & Lee Sin changes. These changes where only brought on because of competitive play.
So basically from here on out we all can expect that any champ that you see used in competitive that dominates will get nerfed. And any player that the pro players want to use more that did not preform well will get buffed.
GenghisEmo1 voteswell yeah, they always balance around competitive for 3-4 patches around #Worlds.
They admitted long ago.
dEAdbUs1 votesThe problem is Tahliya has bad design. She's unfun to play against - mage with almost Blitz' hook, punishing you for dodging it, and with one of best global ults. It's was obvious for me that she'll dominate on pro scene (pros love everything global). But ppl were complaining how weak she's etc. Dumb. I don't know why ppl praise Riot designers, because they're doing mistake after mistake. Tahliya designer made most hard to balance champions: Azir, Luci, Tahm. It's cool to watch, but pain to play against.
I really glad Tahliya is nerfed. But I'm sad because it took so much time.
inplane4 votesThe problem is Tahliya has bad design. She's unfun to play against - mage with almost Blitz' hook, punishing you for dodging it, and with one of best global ults. It's was obvious for me that she'll dominate on pro scene (pros love everything global). But ppl were complaining how weak she's etc. Dumb. I don't know why ppl praise Riot designers, because they're doing mistake after mistake. Tahliya designer made most hard to balance champions: Azir, Luci, Tahm. It's cool to watch, but pain to play against.
I really glad Tahliya is nerfed. But I'm sad because it took so much time.
Her design wasn't even that bad on release. 6.10 Taliyah was the most balanced she'd ever be because she had to work for her roams. She couldn't just spray Q all over the minions and call it a day. She had to interact with the lane opponent with E and W. The Q hotfix was definitely necessary because it ate up her mana pool early on with little payoff.
Remember Lockout? A mechanic that basically balanced her? Us 
mains had to work with that shit and we were happy with it. Guess who asked to remove it. That's right. The people who were against the mechanic were people who didn't even play her. Guess when she became imbalanced.
We didn't give her any time. I can name a few solid counters off the top of my head and it becomes ridiculously easy to beat her if you know what she does. , , 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, and a good 
are all solid counters against her. 
, 
, 
, 
, and 
are good Junglers against her. What do these champions have in common? They do not have gapclosers that are affected by her E.
dEAdbUs1 votesSolid what? She has safe range for farm and global presence. Sorry but I don't see in your list guys with global ult to stop her.
inplane2 votesSolid what? She has safe range for farm and global presence. Sorry but I don't see in your list guys with global ult to stop her.
She couldn't just use Q for farming because she'd lose all her poking power and a fair amount of presence in lane. And remember, it didn't have the 50% bonus damage when she was balanced, so it's even worse. Worked Ground balances her Q's ability to fire 5 projectiles at once. If she can't push out and is stuck in Worked Ground, she's going to be in a lot of trouble. She can risk draining her mana pool by using her subpar E and W or get pushed in and wait. Her E and W are no where near safe compared to someone like Lux or Orianna. Now people can just dash straight through her E and kick her ass with no repercussions.
Also, you don't need global ults to stop her. You need pink/sightstone/blue wards, team presence, game knowledge, and eyes to stop it. If you see her missing, it's clear she's going to ult down to bot or top. There is a chance she's going to cheese you by blocking you off, but it can kill her in the process. Play well, buy MR and you can basically ruin her entire laning phase. Get your team to place a few wards and she's basically non-existent.
