Why should ADCs be able to outplay assassins and divers when most of ADCs damage is targetted, no cooldown, no cost?
Does anyone ever think of what most melee champions can do when fighting someone like Vayne? Or Kalista (when she's good)? Or Gauntlet Ezreal? Or any ranged carry with red buff who has any sort of dash?
It's like ADC mains want their cake and be able to eat it too
Penns29 votesI never thought complaints about adcs made sense... but the MF critting me for 400 with 2 items and insane attack speed from W while Im playing fking useless Talon might change my mind lol. I still think the damage against tanks isnt a problem tho.
feryvunny6 votesI think they need to add some damage into talon's ultimate lol it feels insanely weak even when you're fed.
They put too much focus on his passive to pump out the dps. Ultimate just feels like an escape tool or a repositioning tool, which is okay I guess....but just feels lack luster considering it's supposed to be an ultimate
Penns4 votesYeah Im like "damn, I get to auto them in my ult, this is gonna be good".. then I realize it doesnt do any damage lmao
feryvunny4 votesExactly lol it's good to help you get that melee Q off, but its so risky. Talon should be rewarded with more damage if he uses his ult offensively
Bedl44m1 votesThey should make it so that If all your ult blades hit the target it should proc the passive bleed ; /
Right now we dont get our passive off unless ult halfway through
feryvunny2 votesYeah pretty much.... I would love if they did that. Just give Talon something extra. He just needs a nudge in the right direction to be in a good spot.
Rengar on the other hand gets that overloaded kit and free AD steroid for 5 kills lol....how does this make it out of the PBE. "We want to extend the assassin's burst window." Meanwhile Rengar is still 1 shotting just as fast. Only now he has a mini olaf ult to get out if stuff gets bad.
Mika ATM Hell3 votesI think they need to add some damage into talon's ultimate lol it feels insanely weak even when you're fed.
They put too much focus on his passive to pump out the dps. Ultimate just feels like an escape tool or a repositioning tool, which is okay I guess....but just feels lack luster considering it's supposed to be an ultimate
Agreed , Talon's kit feels like there's too much power in his Q / Passive and not enough of it in his Ult , Rake feels fine tho , now that it has more Counterplay
Joman7676 votesYou just complained about an anti tank gun shredding a kitchen knife. Congratulations
Astôlfo28 votesExcept assassins are supposed to be an ADC's hard counter and assassinate them near instantly? Congratulations, you played yourself.
Dolasaur12 votesExcept assassins are supposed to be an ADC's hard counter and assassinate them near instantly? Congratulations, you played yourself.
"Near instantly" - Not any longer! "High mobility and very high target selection" - That's the core of assassins, as said by Riot several times over the past month.
Unless of course you meant "according to popular perception", of course. Just from the name, I doubt that part will change quickly (if ever).
Astôlfo5 votesEh, more like the way they're supposed to be, versus Riot pandering to players who didn't want to learn how to play against assassins.
Anidan4 votesPlay DotA2 or HotS if you want assassins to quickly kill now, evidently. Riot has decided against that, barring a few exceptions. If you want an "assassin" as they were before, you need to look at the "Mage" selection, because some of them still do pretty stupid burst.
Not sure how the target selection is going to be much good, though, since a lot of the burst patterns now have a pretty good delay added to them... On the one hand, the enemy can react, and that's fairer to them, on the other hand, now assassins can't actually choose their targets as well because a tank can intercept them easier than ever.
And on the Kali's third hand, Falcon (the OP, not the person you responded to) here has a massive hate-boner against anything and everything ranged, so I take anything he says on the matter with a grain of salt.
Seenan5 votesPlay DotA2 or HotS if you want assassins to quickly kill now, evidently. Riot has decided against that, barring a few exceptions. If you want an "assassin" as they were before, you need to look at the "Mage" selection, because some of them still do pretty stupid burst.
Not sure how the target selection is going to be much good, though, since a lot of the burst patterns now have a pretty good delay added to them... On the one hand, the enemy can react, and that's fairer to them, on the other hand, now assassins can't actually choose their targets as well because a tank can intercept them easier than ever.
And on the Kali's third hand, Falcon (the OP, not the person you responded to) here has a massive hate-boner against anything and everything ranged, so I take anything he says on the matter with a grain of salt.
DotA 2
The only Assassin that can 1-3 shot you is PA IF she crits. Maybe Riki. Come on now.
GULAG 4 U5 votesYou aren't playing talon right then. Your ult says "Mf, bitch U can't touch me" and getting in her face then slapping her with a QW should, in most cases, kill her. Never less it isn't fair.
Jet Sett12 votesUnless she ults in your direction, then you're dead before you can react because her ult crits.
GULAG 4 U2 votesWith the MS you get from ult, it shouldn't be hard to maneuver around her. Also MF never really built crit tbh. She doesn't scale very good with it
Hinagiku3313 votesWhy does people say that Miss Fortune doesn't scale with crit?
She's a Marksman, sustained auto-attacks scale with crit by default. That's why they have an AD or AS steroid like her W to enhance the effect of stacking the other stats.
...Also did people forget that each wave of MF's ult can crit???
GULAG 4 U2 votesBeing a marksmen doesn't mean you scale well with crit. MF's crit scaing (even with ult crits) is pretty bad. You can ask Imaqtpie, he said it himself.
Supreme Senpai692 votesMf worked better with armor pen. The lethality might have changed that though, so we'll see
Astôlfo6 votesYou realize your ult doesn't make you invulnerable? MF ult can still kill you anyways if she ults straight forwards. It only makes you invisible in place. Also, your Q is a dash now, not a blink. You're not going to be dodging anything.
GULAG 4 U1 votesIt doesn't, but with the ms and ghost+flash (Faker runs it), it's not unrealistic to do so.
Astôlfo2 votesFair enough.
GULAG 4 U1 votesProceed to then go behind her (assuming you don't lag like shit like me during teamfights) and Q W her and he's pretty much dead. If she would want safety she would need to cancel her teamfight presence, in other words, win a teamfight.
Astôlfo3 votesThe issue is, she could initiate the teamfight with the ultimate. By the time you Ghost and/or Flash around and kill her with your combo, your team will still have taken multiple waves and most likely be severely injured if not outright dead. And Talon does not like being stuck in a team by himself.
GULAG 4 U3 votesLogically yes, but the counterplay to Mf is also instant hard engage to cancel the ult quickly. A smart talon should attempt to flank MF in other words.
IceKingChernobog17 votesI never thought complaints about adcs made sense... but the MF critting me for 400 with 2 items and insane attack speed from W while Im playing fking useless Talon might change my mind lol. I still think the damage against tanks isnt a problem tho.
Lets not forget 
who does a better job at assassinating with just an 
and a Empowered Q
6Sfool16 votesIt's actually kind of a negative cost. They get free health through lifesteal.
Sona x Rubick14 votes
seems quite outplayable with that long ass reload delay, shit attack speed, telegraphed spells and no mobility except in late game (and bonus ms isn't mobility)
if they removed his %hp damage from passive, OR removed his snare. he would have been the most perfect adc.
dominusx23 votesHE IS PERFECT STFU
GULAG 4 U9 votes^upvote this man to 4 or -4. DO THE JOB.
dominusx9 votesONE MORE TO GOOOOOO THEN PERFECTION WILL BE RESTORED
Jet Sett8 votesDone.
Hinagiku338 votesAnd now recursive perfection
Cowseed7 votesGood bye perfection :)
DrCyanide15 votesTrue, Jhin actually has a "cooldown" on his basic attacks, giving him a bit more counterplay than the average ADC (even if it is traded for burst).
Astôlfo3 votesNot being able to attack even a full one time per second (it's 0.94375 at level 18) and being forced through a static CD 2.5 second reload after every 4 autos is a significant drawback. Which is why each individual auto packs a harder punch.
Mizaya12 votesI mean, for one, you could have done better in terms of originality. It's not as if, you know, there was a reddit post saying the exact same thing?
Now, I speak for most ADC mains: We have no problem with being countered by assassins. Now, that doesn't mean the assassin should be guaranteed to be able to kill the enemy carry in every teamfight; with good positioning, the adc should be able to stay alive most of the time(sometimes you will need to risk your life to be able to do damage).
So this also explains your other misconception. You frame ADC damage as if it's this oppressive, uncounterable, toxic aspect of gameplay. And here's where your post veers off from the topic that actually relates to real, optimal, theoretical gameplay into irrelevant hypothetical situations.
So we can talk, analyze the game in the context of a teamfight, or we can analyze it in terms of a 1v1 situation. Now, maybe that would have been relevant a few seasons ago, but it definitely isn't now, so that's not the context we should be balancing in. ADCs require extensive peel, a strong frontline along with their own mechanical capability to excel, which requires them to play with their team nearly all the time. Do you disagree?
So the job of an assassin is to find the right time to go in and, as their name suggests, assassinate the ADC. Which implies that AD carries by themselves shouldn't be able to outplay an assassin if they have allowed a window of opportunity to be engaged on by them. I agree.
As for melee champions in general, this is too broad to generalize. But I assume you are talking about champions that you complain are prone to being kited by carries. But that isn't actually their JOB. They aren't assassins; they aren't charged with hunting down a carry and killing them, but rather to either disrupt the enemy team and/or provide a sort of wall of protection for their own team. If the super-tanky Zac is able to keep the ADC busy while his team dismantles the enemy, has he not done his job? Or does he really have to kill the ADC to consider it a success? I think not. So again, we're looking at a more realistic teamfight scenario rather than a hypothetical 1v1 which would really never happen with an ADC past laning phase. These kinds of champions aren't meant to be a huge threat without another champion that provides damage.
So I don't know, melee is too broad. Give me something more specific and I will talk about that.
As for damage, yes, it is counterable. And I assume you haven't played ADC. Because, the damage of ADCs, when we're talking about autoattack damage, is countered by threat. Again, we are looking at a teamfight scenario. The threat of being caught out by CC, creates a sort of "danger zone" that an ADC must navigate around, constantly taking in information from an ongoing teamfight and knowing when they can go in and autoattack. This is why a Jhin ultimate can actually be a decent substitution for a consistently DPSing ADC, because ADCs can't always actually consistently do damage. The last season has, more than ever, emphasized positioning and threat over actual damage, which I believe is just a natural evolution of a game becoming more complex.
So I think you are not only generalizing all ADC mains with the strawman you used in your post, but you also need to look at the game from a practical standpoint. How are games of League of Legends won? What are the roles of different champions in the current meta? If you focus purely on one concept and don't apply it properly to the overall impact it has and its relation to the game , there really is no value to the concept. And such is the problem with most posts regarding balance.
Rıots Bad Client6 votesI always thought 
item would be really cool if it were just a component. Like 1 to combat attack speed builds and the other to combat life steals.
(any maybe one to combat True damage)
(pretend that this only builds from a 
and sum so something like
+ 350g
+50 Armor
Tiny thorn passive
New item: Fire spitter. (For attack speed)
+
+60 Armor
New Item: Life Hauberk
? +
+20 Atk Dmg?(Something else)
+55 Armor
Passive: Reduces LIFESTEAL(not incomming heals, so it doesn't fight sona/raka) that inflict to you.
and the unique passive could be shared between them and thats the thornmail bit. Reflect some damage based on armor or something.
Rebonack5 votesHow would you suggest adding counterplay to ranged auto-attacks beside the usual 'don't be in range' that applies to all targeted abilities?
Ralanr2 votesDod-
Sees Jax
Nevermind.
Rebonack8 votesDod-
Sees Jax
Nevermind.
Could make 'em deal reduced damage to targets closer to them than, say 250. Obvious exception for Graves.
6Sfool7 votesThat's actually a good idea. Maybe like 30% less damage through aa's based on how short the projectile travels. It might solve the melee-range dueling issue.
VasilisGreen5 votesWhy would you want a cake if you can't eat it?
RikoZerame2 votesBecause once you eat it, you don't have it.
S3XAS4 votesU really don't understand why people complain about ADC. When I gap close with Melee champ I kill the ADC most of the time and when I Don't it's because I either got outplayed or I have underestimated the Dmg of ADC. In either case it the lack of skill or experience that kills me.
Hinagiku336 votesBecause losing half your health to a single crit because you were walking half a lane away from Caitlyn feels completely BS when you remember that her auto-attacks scale better than most (or all) of your abilities, and crit to deal 200-250% damage, have no cost of any kind, have basically no cooldown, and are longer range than anything in your kit.
Perhaps if they had to interact with us in some way besides just right-clicking from a safe distance we wouldn't mind it as much.
