Meddler, ADC already have already diversity, can you instead focus on top lane?

Ahristocats·Nov 23, 2016·11 votes·1,109 views

is balanced, good, and maybe overpowered according to some people gives you AIDS is going to be nerfed and still remain strong one of the highest win rate was always strong can be gamebreaking is close to be gamebreaking are still situational picks due to good kitting/utility/spellshield countering people

So Now is going to be also strong with his new passive+ bork+ginsoo, he also has 575 range.

Meanwhile toplane and kennen are still untouched irelia/riven/poppy are the only viable melee past diamond 1

why nothing is being done? is legit trash, is being destroyed by the champs he counters, nerfed because of lcs, all those guys are just being held back by ranged champs that forces them to not be played.

A word please?

29 Comments

CookyPrinceNov 23, 20166 votes

Caitlyn is aids but Jhin is balanced. I'm very confused

RequiemsfireNov 23, 20162 votes

That's because Caitlyn can respond to any kind of melee champion with a net, then immediately Q them for bonus damage and let's not even mention her Yordle snap trap before gunning you down while Jhin is an immobile squishy who isn't the best duelist you can ask for while still strong but has obvious moments of weakness.

MelledoneusNov 24, 20162 votes

In fact, Jhin can't duel any ADC on the roster unless he's super fed and far ahead of his opponent. He relies heavily on his team to start a fight so he can stay in the back and deal damage.

A Basic IslandNov 24, 20161 votes

im no adc expert but can't jihn just outrange them by autoing and backing till he can auto again, and since he's jihn it only takes maybe 2 autos to kill

JackMcSnipeyzNov 24, 20161 votes

Jhin's range is normal - 550 most adc have kiting abilities, late game any adc can duel jhin unless he is far far behind

MelledoneusNov 24, 20162 votes

As I said, Jhin cannot duel because he SHOULDN'T. Having only four auto attacks means that attack speed carries would destroy him before he can reach the fourth shot. He needs set up to deal ridiculous damage, and I love that.

MLDzXnRRRNov 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

In fact, Jhin can't duel any ADC on the roster unless he's super fed and far ahead of his opponent. He relies heavily on his team to start a fight so he can stay in the back and deal damage.

You don't have to duel, if you can 1shot them.

MelledoneusNov 24, 20161 votes

Right. As I was saying, you can't just stand and duel a Twitch, Draven, or a Tristana. You need to kite, utilize your other abilities, and set up their health bar for that delicious fourth shot.

JafarThePandaNov 23, 20165 votes

Renekton is NOT bad right now.

Shadow HazardNov 23, 20161 votes

I agree on this point. CoC was a great addition for him in a similar way as riven. I can agree with the sentiment of OP's thoughts in general.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20162 votes

Vlad feels fine overall; just wish he had his base MS and HP nerfs reverted. Just gotta build him full AP, like pre-rework. An average 185% AP (and another 100+ damage from E's HP scaling) being spammed every 3 seconds is pretty damn strong. On top of that, his massive base damage got a huge buff with the Abyssal change, and it now synergizes much better with Void Staff.

His base damage/healing with just HP items isn't enough to let him brute-force mid, and HP builds are objectively bad top (can't trade well, unsafe lane, no counter-itemization). It should be pretty safe to give him those stats back without pushing him out of line.

He might need a little help depending on how hard Rylai's gets hit, though.

item 3001 item 3158 item 3157 item 3116 item 3089 item 3135 is the way to go on him now. item 3065 item 3152 |.+6th.| is utter garbage.

AhristocatsNov 23, 20161 votes

how do you play vlad if it isn't full ap? my false otp vlad friend builds item 3065 item 3157 item 3116 into full ap

WoonStruckNov 23, 20161 votes

I get the impression that item 3065 on Vlad is just as bad as it was pre-rework.

Building it early delays damage far too much to let you farm/trade effectively vs a lot of top lane match-ups. Building it mid-game means foregoing Rylai's or Void and giving up scaling damage for a period, which you'll likely find yourself needing more.

Building it late game has much less impact since you'll get melted either way at that point. Its better to have the MR and much higher damage from Abyssal.

Over InnsmouthNov 23, 20162 votes

The only people still buying Protobelt on Vlad are idiots.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20161 votes

Right?

And unless you're mid, where its practically required to stay in lane vs a lot of match-ups, I feel largely the same way about Spirit Visage.

Over InnsmouthNov 23, 20161 votes

I know what you mean by Visage (especially early Visage) cutting your damage, but once you get some AP and other items to go along with it, it feels really good.

I still hit ~4k hp and ~650 AP lategame, with 45% CDR to boot. Instead of item 3001 item 3135 , I get item 3065 item 3151 .

I don't think either builds are objectively better than the other, just different playstyles.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20161 votes

I like having 4k HP and ~800-900 AP, with 45% CDR.

Considering Q is an average .825 Ap ratio (between normal and CR casts), and E is 1.0, your EQ is dealing an average of 382.5+ ~182.5% AP every cast.

That means 1962.5 damage. This damage is multiplied by ~1.4, due to Abyssal, ult, and masteries. That gives you ~2790 damage. From EQ alone. Slightly more if its CR, less if its not.

Then there's the ult popping for 1290 damage.

That means champions need to have at least 4180 EHP to survive even getting in range of you. Since most non-tanks will have ~90-120MR, this means you must have anywhere between 2460(120)-3190(90) HP to survive a single rotation from Vlad, and you can fit two within your ult's timeframe. This also doesn't include the damage your W would likely be providing, although its relatively small.

All while Vlad gives up very little tankiness to achieve this.

I think, mathematically, Abyssal+Void is better. The new synergy now that Abyssal doesn't provide MR reduction, which was mitigated by void before, makes it pretty insane.

It doesn't matter how hard your team is feeding if you 1 shot 3/5 of their team every fight while still being really tanky.

This is especially useful with how mid/bot tend to be extremely one-sided outcomes by the time mid-late game rolls around.

MelledoneusNov 24, 20161 votes

Oh god I'm an idiot.

Sahn UzalNov 23, 20162 votes

Yeah we could use some help up here, it's kind of a fiesta at the moment :l

TyrekGoldenspearNov 23, 20161 votes

At least you have oranges to make the fiesta K. :P

Best princess EUNov 23, 20162 votes

it is possible to balance a lane with 10 champions or 15

it isn't possible to balance the toplane with 50 champs in it or more you're forgetting tons of ranged champs that are trash like Lissandra Gnar (needs his kit to be fixed first) cancer like Graves Quinn new top laners Kled Illaoi

and so much more Trundle Shen Fiora Chogath DrMundo

i don't think toplane will ever be balanced meanwhile in the adc role, they are close

MelledoneusNov 24, 20161 votes

Out of curiosity, why did you lob Shen with Trundle and Fiora? He's not nearly as strong, and his duelist fantasy relies on him pulling a giant sword through you that he cannot hide from you or reposition freely.

PennsNov 23, 20161 votes

Renek is trash and Darius/Wu are being held back lul

AhristocatsNov 23, 20161 votes

escuse me, i'm not talking about bronze/silver/gold but high diamond

put darius against riven top, tell me who will win and watch darius trying to get his Q off with the 4 dashes of riven.

PennsNov 23, 20161 votes

Well according to leagueofgraphs, all 3 of those champs have a higher win rate in Dia+ than in any other elo... A good Riven countering Darius doesnt really make him trash, does it?

GayFluffyUnicornNov 24, 20161 votes

What do you know about high diamond? Aside from what maybe someone tells you or third party websites showing you graphs? You call jax trash and jax has the 6th highest winrate in masters. Darius is even above irelia. Poppy who is the "only viable" is at 56 in masters. In diamond trash darius is top 3 in winrate and trash jax still in the top 30 (though he could be played as well in jungle). But renekton is still in a good spot as is maokai and several others.

RisenDarkKnightNov 23, 20161 votes

I mean there are 18 adcs and 56 top laners...

Sure Jayce is OP, but Renekton is actually quite good right now (with Courage of the Colossus), Jax is good (I admit I mostly play him jungle), I just played Xin top and it was fine, Wu, Darius and Singed are all really good right now (singed has like a 53% winrate).

I just played 4 games of top lane 3 of which I was playing a melee vs a ranged champ and it really wasn't bad at all. I guess if you are only concerned with champion pools that are meta above diamond 1 there is a problem but for the 99.7% of us that are below that MMR, there are WAY more viable top laners than there are adcs. Even in bronze Kalista is an autoloss, and urgot is trash, so there are really only 16 viable adcs, compared to probably more than 40 viable top laners.

Of the best 16 top laners (acording to champion.gg) only 3 are ranged. Darius, (who you mentioned as unplayable) is the third best, singed is 8th, renekton is 11th, and only Xin is struggling. I was just able to win a game with him top with the new BoRK in a split push build (though admittedly it was vs Cho Gath), and he seemed like he should be fine (I just suck at him).

In terms of actual diversity (IE how often people play them), Ezreal, Jhin, Caitlin, and Vayne all have above a 24% playrate, while only riven is above 10% playrate for top lane. There are 15 adcs with above a 1% playrate vs 45 top laners.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just annoyed by how Riot keeps making new champs for all roles equally when there are only 18 adcs and 30 supports vs 56 top laners,but the top laners complain there isn't enough diversity.

Sun Wu RyuumokuNov 24, 20161 votes

Aatrox agree

The Yetii RiderNov 24, 20161 votes

Ranged tops are going to be in trouble once people learn how to play these assassins properly. Then mid can roam top for easy kills on Kennen and Gnar.