Snowballing ain't going to be fixed with changes like this

Ahristocats··36 votes·1,747 views

triumph -5 gold towers +10 armor/mr

[sg-lux-2]

the reason bot lane tower falls extremely easily in early game is because of red buff procing on towers and demolish

why was red buff on tower introduced in the first place? i don't know when it got introduced but it never worked on towers in season 2/season 3

Why was demolish introduced?

https://youtu.be/phdOwyHp140

explain why you were thinking "oh look we need to introduce something to make a champion able to remove 40% of a tower hp within one minion wave"

here is what you need to do if you want to reduce snowballing: -give towers a wukong passive until 15 min in the game -remove red buff procing on towers -nerf demolish from 30% max hp to 20% max hp

28 Comments

Ayanami3rd18 votes

Riot is just out of their mind. For a long time I believed they would balance things out eventually, but ~5 patches later, I don't think so anymore. People were complaining about weak towers => they introduced Demolish. People were even more complaining => They gave towers a small HP boost, but made minions more effective in tower pushing, so effectiverly that was a tower nerf. Then they promised to look into Runes reforged issues with 8.2 => Doesn't seem like towers get fixed.

gg

The Yetii Rider7 votes

"People were complaining"

That doesn't mean Riot has to do anything about it. We do not dictate game balance. If we did, Teemo would literally no longer exist, and probably not Yasuo either.

This game is not balanced by vote or democracy, it's balanced by numbers, observation, and trial and error. People not liking something or having negative experiences doesn't mean it should be changed. LOSING will always feel bad, that doesn't mean that we need to remove the factors that cause you to lose.

Trollmanship2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R1Iu3kzh,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-01-15T00:56:55.370+0000)

"People were complaining"

That doesn't mean Riot has to do anything about it. We do not dictate game balance. If we did, Teemo would literally no longer exist, and probably not Yasuo either.

This game is not balanced by vote or democracy, it's balanced by numbers, observation, and trial and error. People not liking something or having negative experiences doesn't mean it should be changed. LOSING will always feel bad, that doesn't mean that we need to remove the factors that cause you to lose.

Well league isn't fun anymore when you win either, so maybe Riot should get off their asses and realize something is wrong.

Tomoe Gozen3 votes

That's your subjective opinion.

Penns15 votes

Why was demolish introduced?

because a weakness of tanks was that they couldnt damage towers much

cant have that :]

Ahristocats21 votes

tanks have weak laning pha...

oh wait -12 mr to everyone buff grasp magic damage introduce comet and scorch buff tanks base stats at lvl 1 to the highest in the game

nvm lol

Hong Kong Annie4 votes

To be fair the tanks have always had the highest base stats at lvl 1

Ahristocats3 votes

you're right my bad

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

no, darius has the best base stats at level 1 lol

Ahristocats2 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R1Iu3kzh,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-14T19:49:25.955+0000)

no, darius has the best base stats in the game lol

i think you didn't realise i was talking about

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R1Iu3kzh,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-14T12:49:25.955+0000)

lvl 1

DeusVult6 votes

Tbh the biggest part of why tanks are doing well that no one really seems to understand is the lack of early MR. everyone used to run 12 MR, now no one does, tanks have high base damage on core skills. Riot buffed damage and got rid of defense and now everyone wonder why they blow up

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Maokai +15% attack speed, has so much base AS/AD that he basically rightclicks any fighter to death .

LankPants12 votes

-nerf demolish from 30% max hp to 20% max hp

Can we just replace it with something actually interesting to tanks, or is that a crime in the Resolve tree?

Ahristocats1 votes

young padawan that is an interesting question that only riot can answer to [sona-playing]

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

But that would mean fighters have an advantage over tanks and that is just not allowed.

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

I always thought the most compelling pvp mechanic in games, was the rock paper scissors checks and balances system, and when it was removed everyone inevitably just runs damage, but in league, I feel they left a few too many gaps, for instance, the most hotly argued thing, adc crit builds, there is essentially no real counter for it except build lots of hp and armor, which means your damage is gimped... and as we all know a no threat character, with a ton of self sustain and defense is ignored as much as they can be, since they arent even slightly a threat, they should add a secondary branch in the armor tree that is specifically anti crit, some bruiser or tank item that lets them face tank that heavy burst, maybe amp the skill up by making it an activated ability? With a decaying shield, once its gone, you can be crit again? dunno, just tossing ideas out.

As for the towers, they really just need an all around buff, or some itemization that allows us to defend them, like old school Fortify, just not...busted, something like an inverted item 3056 that has a redemption sized range activated, that drops a scaling shield, or increases the turrets fire rate and gives it aoe or something

Orbv1 votes

I loved fortify. They didn't like that it prolonged games, but it was a summoner's spell. You lost kill potential to keep turrets alive.

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

Yeah, Fortify protected me during many...many tower dives, now there is essentially nothing you can do when the mid dings 6 and decides to head bot with jungle to dive you under your turret lol, you may be able to pop every summoner, all your cool downs, and kinda...maybe if you are lucky get 1 kill off their dive, but they got the turret if they want, it, and 2 kills

Flashes1 votes

Idk i love leona with resolve that satisfying PEW

Nea1044 votes

Did they nerf the overall crazy damage basically every champion can do? No :P They aren't gonna fix anything then... :D

Poske3 votes

I sort of disagree

I just think towers shoudnt give so high gold ammount

Rather then making towers hurth more / be tankier this is what we need. Less gold from them

By making towers sturdier you are saying fk you to every single melee champion in a game which want summoner rift to be opened map ASAP

lollo27011 votes

Riot is fine with the snowball

Altonius Amakiir1 votes

I believe the idea was to allow tanks to be able to push turrets if they wanted to "build" into it. They did this with AP users way back by adding AP ratios to their autos on towers. It actually ends up taking some power away from ADCs, in the AP case it made it so ADCs dont have to be the center of all team fights because now others can take towers. With Demolish now, its the same thing, now other champions can push towers instead of ADC, so ADC doesn't need to be protected like some god that can never be allowed to take a single hit; it also takes away some power early game from them because now its conceivable for a tank to get first turret outside of cases where you somehow kill the enemy top laner 3 times in 8 minutes, which is something tanks needed to compete a bit better early game, as well as attract people to the role.

Now, since it's on a rune they had to up the power to allow it to give the same impact to tanks, and against ADC centricism as those AP tower-pushing systemic changes gave AP users. This may be causing a problem of putting it in a precarious position between giving the amount of impact it needs for tanks to solve their particular issue, vs. feeling really bad to fight against. Some of the feels bad will go away with time, but it may be too much even after that settles.

Red buff was probably an anti-turtle mechanic, and since those days it was needed for such, it has become very centric to objectives available. What I mean is, people like the impact it gives, its very meaningful. It's power has been reduced over the years I would like to point out, and currently it's power is spread between a bit of extra tower push(it's honestly not much unless you have a lot of AS) and PvP damage, so it isn't as centric to pushing towers as you might think. Also there's counter-play in that you can kill the person to not only to make them lose it, but you get it. Anyways, the buff is too popular to be touched and is actually really balanced right now anyway.

Also these changes are actually a pretty big buff to towers, its +5% damage reduction at the start essentially. All in all the changes probably mean towers stay up a good 6-7% longer during laning phase, which means laning phase lasts longer.

The triumph changes are just because it's OP, by far best in slot. And that extra gold is also most impactful early game, so since laning phase has gotten shorter recently they overlapped its nerf to help that as well.

As for your proposed changes, how does lowering the health scaling affect it's early game damage, which is what you're complaining of?

Silverjust1 votes

I think the whole tower-dive-scenario needs to be reworked

JoeMG1 votes

I was just realizing over the weekend that tanks are the new split-pushers.

Demolish to chunk turrets, take forever to kill (not necessarily a bad thing), and unreasonably high damage to deal with the opposition.

This super damage meta needs to go.

Ralanr1 votes

I’d rather demolish scale off of bonus HP than max to be honest.

Oleandervine1 votes

It also doesn't help that the bot lane towers don't have the shielding that the top and mid lane towers have. It is absolutely BEYOND me why the towers with THE MOST potential to have more people gang up on them and fall were stripped of their defensive shielding. It also is further compounded by the fact that the bot lane has the most desirable ganks (ADCs function and scale extremely well when they start getting kills), and that the Dragons are some of the earlier objectives that junglers want to take out, which by default puts them on the bottom side of the map. So yeah, I'm not entirely certain as to why the bot lane turrets are so defenseless when they're the most vulnerable of all the turrets.

More from Gameplay

More by Ahristocats