Dmg/mobility creep has become ridiculous.

option paralysis·Aug 17, 2019·104 votes·19,763 views

I actually don't know how to enjoy the game anymore. I'm playing it only because my pc is shit and I cant play anything else. Fuckin' pyke jumping 15 times, stunning you, pulling you back, as if that wasn't enough, he has a true dmg execute ulti, alright. Jax being broken for god knows how long, riot decides to buff him, alright. Every game same adcs critting you for 600 dmg from long range and you can't do sht cuz they have a fuckin' yuumi on them.

Just... so many broken champs with so much mobility. Armor doesn't mean jack sht. It's just a game of who kills whom faster in 0.3 secs. It's sad really. I peaked d1 last season, ended d4 and thank god I haven't started playing ranked this year, because I can't handle this dumb shit anymore. It's such a coin flip that it renders playing the actual game meaningless.

119 Comments

Tahminatrix Aug 17, 201931 votes

Mobility creep is at a point where some champs are just allowed to outright oppress immobile champs as long as they are useless against mobile champs (because being powerless against mobility creep is such a staggering drawback)

TahmKench for example, riot keeps buffing his slow on his q as "compensation buffs" to them making him worse against mobile champs. (removing stacking mechanic on q)

Now whenever I play tahm kench I know who I wont have trouble killing and completely bullying from playing the game no matter how good they are, and who I cant even touch no matter bad they are, before champ select is even finished.

BugogAug 18, 201921 votes

Mobility creep is when trying to make champions feel unique they continuously add more immunities, speed boosts, blinks, dashes, untargetables, stealths. teleports, terrain ignores, or other fuckery. The problem comes in that the champions who don't have any power budget wrapped up in those abilities should steamroll them in lane, but that's not allowed so the immobile champions end up with less power overall. It also make good positioning impossible, which makes playing immobile champions unrewarding.

RagnaveilAug 18, 20194 votes

Hmmm, sounds like Riven and Jax.

BugogAug 18, 201912 votes

Yuumi (dash/untargetable), rakan (dash, dash (+redash), speed boost), kayn (dash, speed boost terrain ignore, untargetable), pyke (speed boost stealth, dash, dash execute), Qiyana (dash, dash, stealth), etc. The mobility creep has gotten so bad that it's probably easier to list champs that don't have some kind of fuckery in their kit.

RagnaveilAug 18, 20192 votes

Or just look at the current meta and see how many non-mobile picks are being picked compared to mobile. We reverted the crit changes for adcs and gave them a speed boost in terms of a buff out of those changes.

Ninjas FlossingAug 19, 20194 votes

which doesnt solve the other issue. the other issue being damage creep. if you cant out mobility them then you have to kill them faster then they can. its a bullshit never ending cycle of buff damage to compensate for mobility > add new crazy mobility and buff old mobility > MOAR DAMAGE > MOBILITY > CANCER >CANCER>CANCER etc.

cancer - by definition - is uncontrolled growth and you can bet your bottom dollar that's what this shit is now

StatcheckyAug 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yuumi (dash/untargetable), rakan (dash, dash (+redash), speed boost), kayn (dash, speed boost terrain ignore, untargetable), pyke (speed boost stealth, dash, dash execute), Qiyana (dash, dash, stealth), etc. The mobility creep has gotten so bad that it's probably easier to list champs that don't have some kind of fuckery in their kit.

You forgot Pyke dash stun just in case you decide to do something stupid like trying to catch the little sht.

Also no Ekko mention? dash into targeted dash, speed boost and pseudo revive/teleport.

BugogAug 21, 20191 votes

I wasn't trying to make an exhaustive list, just looking at some of their more recent champs.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20192 votes

Yes, screw those two, and particularly, their abuse of SoS.

Also, jax doesn't have a weak early game. Change my mind

RagnaveilAug 19, 20193 votes

He doesn't, and i've been saying it for a while lol He beats Aatrox if hes competent enough. If he isn't then he loses.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20192 votes

like, it's so simple, jax either plays passive if he's smart but not confident in his ability, and waits to eventually get enough farm to murder people. He's safe in this scenario as long as he has a ward or minion to jump to in the event someone catches him, but even if they get right on top of him, he can just pop E and he's good.

If he is smart AND confident, he'll just time his jumps and Es properly to outtrade you every time you miss a pull (darius) or miss Q or E (aatrox). If you do pull jax first as darius, then jax just presses E anyway, stuns you, and walks away. You can only really punish the bad jax's who don't know how to use E properly.

RagnaveilAug 19, 20192 votes

Exactly.

DapaSquidAug 18, 201915 votes

Try playing aatrox into Akali Qiyana Yasuo Zed Irelia Lucian

Fun times....

RagnaveilAug 18, 20194 votes

You forgot Jax Riven Renekton Tryndamere Camille

DapaSquidAug 19, 20193 votes

{quoted}

You forgot

Didn't forget, just cba listing half the roster.

Tin ObliteratesAug 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Try playing aatrox into

Fun times....

Try playing any slightly slower champion into those guys, it's torture.

Though I usually can beat Irelia with Aatrox.

DapaSquidAug 19, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=man of tin,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QyUYuZtn,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-08-19T08:54:34.142+0000)

Try playing any slightly slower champion into those guys, it's torture.

Though I usually can beat Irelia with Aatrox.

Ohh trust me, I've played every champion countless times over 9 years... and yes it is torture. I was only using an example of aatrox.

ShmeeveAug 18, 20198 votes

You haven't seen %%%% until you seen the malphite glitch in the pbe that made his ult global. THAT is scary.

RαyAug 18, 20198 votes

The fact that I get freaking oneshot by anyone who completed an item ever since Runes Reforged is beyond frustrating.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20194 votes

It's true, at this point I'd rather just get rid of runes altogether. They don't really present options for people. There are only runes that are broken and those that are not. Some champs make certain runes broken, others can merely use them, and some champs get left in the dust with no runes that truly shine. Either way though, variety barely exists. There are simply people who know the optimal runes, and those who don't.

5050BSAug 18, 20197 votes

100%

DragonSheaAug 18, 20197 votes

Mobile champs are getting a HP creep and it's clear they will over take tankier champs soon.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20194 votes

It's true. Look at Irelia. When they "nerfed" her W by making it only reduce physical damage, they also buffed it's potency against physical damage and increased her HP growth per level to 110 - THE HIGHEST IN THE GAME. She fricken gets more hp/level than juggernauts and tanks. Darius used to have the most or tied for the most hp/level at 100. Now even Fizz gets that much. So stupid, the morons at riot.

Linna ExcelAug 18, 20196 votes

It's been going on for too long. I think some mobility is good for the game but riot likes making champs that overdo it, like yasuo and pike. There's a sweet spot riot has trouble hitting.

I think we need to keep mobility to vi/sej Q levels at the most. One primary skill to either go in or get out with. Ahri is fine to because she has only 3 dashes on a long CD.

NaturesMayhemAug 19, 20196 votes

I feel so useless as a skill shot based champion that has little mobility. I spend most of my time firing off shots that will never land because the enemy will dash or simply leave the range. Then when they engage there is no distance between us, they gap close and I'm dead because if I can't one shot there's no way I will win the fight. This sucks.

Love AnastasiaAug 18, 20191 votes

Pyke jumping 15 times = He has literally one Dash and his R lol

BrightWîngsAug 18, 201919 votes

It was meant to be an exaggeration if it was not apparent to you his point being hes really mobile and nearly impossible to catch

SnowbrandAug 18, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It was meant to be an exaggeration if it was not apparent to you his point being hes really mobile and nearly impossible to catch

But he isn't tho? He literally have just one dash and his ult is conditional? He have less mobility then zed or yasuo for example, that were released much longer ago?

FantasySniperAug 18, 20195 votes

He also has extremely strong and uninterruptable stealth comparable to Twitch and builds Youmuu's as a core item. He's stupid slippery.

SnowbrandAug 18, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He also has extremely strong and uninterruptable stealth comparable to Twitch and builds Youmuu's as a core item. He's stupid slippery.

Stealth doesn't make him more mobile. Any assassin could build youmuus

RagnarokmechAug 19, 20194 votes

in fact it gives him a speed boost based of AD so it does, if he wants to escape it's literally guaranteed if your against an immobile champion.

SnowbrandAug 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

in fact it gives him a speed boost based of AD so it does, if he wants to escape it's literally guaranteed if your against an immobile champion.

Yea, a lot of champions have ms boosts, like you could argue Vayne have pretty much the same mobility as pyke with her q and ms on passive and ult.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20194 votes

Not even close. While I hate vayne too, btw, she only has a MS boost WHEN ATTACKING you dunce. and her Q tumble is much more short ranged and requires autoing, or else the CD won't refresh for a long time and so she won't be able to use it for a long time. AKA, when she's legit trying to escape.

Granted yes, vayne is BS and I hate her, but she's no excuse for the abomination of pyke

IainG10Aug 19, 20193 votes

Not quite true, as her P is flat MS towards nearby enemies, but it isn't that much and in essence you're correct; she only has infinite Qs when attacking and/or in Ult (which was a stupid change that should not have happened)

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20193 votes

Yes that is a good technical correction. She only needs to be moving in the direction of enemies. It's just that, unlike pyke, she doesn't get a speed boost for escaping. Almost all of her mobility is tied to either moving towards an enemy or being actively engaged in a fight.

And yeah, the buff to her R was totally unnecessary. The thing is, while I used to hate vayne and yasuo more than anything, they now seem like just average overloaded champs. Like, vayne doesn't feel nearly as oppressive compared to decent irelia's, jax, or akalis in team fights.

IainG10Aug 19, 20192 votes

Indeed; she is actually a better assassin design than most of the assassins, in that she might be inescapable, but she can't trade that for being uncatchable (if she fucks up, she dies; no wall-hacks, no blinks, no cross-terrain dashes).

You also have a point about her vs those 3 melees you mentioned; if she gets caught, she dies. If Irelia gets caught she pops her ranged AoE stun and maybe her physical dmg reduction. If Jax gets caught he'll pop his E and possibly his ult. If Akali gets caught she'll smokescreen. All 3 will gain some defensive bonus that makes ADCs (the kings and queens of shitting on a caught target) do nothing to them, and will probably weather whatever magic dmg they have to deal with. 1 good solo carry can end a cocky Vayne; it takes a team to have a chance to kill Irelia or Jax, and usually at least a pair to probably end Akali.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20193 votes

Everything you just said is true. The problem with those three champs is that between their mobility, target access, defensive mechanics, monster burst AND monster DPS, combined with even with some CC, they basically cover most or all of their weaknesses. They all survive longer in fights than most juggernauts, and accomplish twice as much. And not just late game (jax) or against squishy targets (assassins like akali), but those champs are good in solo or in teamfights against literally 90% of enemy team comps. In other words, they are almost never a bad pick, and can, when played properly, abuse almost any opponent, but the same counterplay is not a luxury their own opponents have.

BrightWîngsAug 19, 20191 votes

no you're the one taking it literally you can't surely think someone thinks a champion has 15 dashes with 5 abilities..... he is exaggerating.

SnowbrandAug 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

no you're the one taking it literally you can't surely think someone thinks a champion has 15 dashes with 5 abilities..... he is exaggerating.

No shit sherlock. Yea, but I don't think he is more mobile then a lot of other champions, that was my point.

BrightWîngsAug 19, 20192 votes

dont no shit Sherlock me when you clearly can't tell when someone is exaggerating

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20191 votes

LMAO! HA! He also has an insane speed boost and camo. Don't make us laugh dude

SnowbrandAug 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

LMAO! HA! He also has an insane speed boost and camo. Don't make us laugh dude

Not sure why that should make you laugh lol. He only have one dash in his kit that he can definitely use, his ult is only working if it kills the target, so it isn't even sure he can use it most of the time and he have ms. Vi have the same lvl of mobility pretty much, since her ult being sure to move her everytime balance out pykes extra ms on his W. Pyke is a bad example of champions with extreme mobility.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20191 votes

What you are attempting to say is that you don't think extreme MS boosts are a type of mobility, and what I'm saying is that they ARE. Especially when coupled with a dash/stun and camo. And yes, pyke is very mobile, as he has multiple mobility options that are very effective and provide him with many decisional and tactical options, and on top of that, immobile champs have virtually no way of catching him until he engages them and decides to stick around instead of running, since he stun and MS boost are guaranteed against such champs. I actually have an easier time chasing down a zed as darius with ghost on, than pyke. Both are still extremely hard to catch, but zed is slightly more catchable. The problem is that without ghost, a champ like darius has zero chance of forcing either of those two into a fight, and 100% relies and getting 5 stacks on one of their allies and trying to burst them during a short window of opportunity. Basically, the stars have to align.

SnowbrandAug 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What you are attempting to say is that you don't think extreme MS boosts are a type of mobility, and what I'm saying is that they ARE. Especially when coupled with a dash/stun and camo. And yes, pyke is very mobile, as he has multiple mobility options that are very effective and provide him with many decisional and tactical options, and on top of that, immobile champs have virtually no way of catching him until he engages them and decides to stick around instead of running, since he stun and MS boost are guaranteed against such champs. I actually have an easier time chasing down a zed as darius with ghost on, than pyke. Both are still extremely hard to catch, but zed is slightly more catchable. The problem is that without ghost, a champ like darius has zero chance of forcing either of those two into a fight, and 100% relies and getting 5 stacks on one of their allies and trying to burst them during a short window of opportunity. Basically, the stars have to align.

Yes, you are right, I agree it's a form of mobility.

He is mobile, but he isn't very mobile. He is pretty standard as a mobile champ(Irelia, Yassuo like that would be very mobile). Lee Sin and Vi are more like his level of mobility. Idk, I think pyke is a pretty well designed overall. He is supposed to be slippery to catch and I think that's fine. Whenever pyke go in to ult, you have a lot of good oportunities to shut him down.

BugogAug 19, 20193 votes

The funny thing is that back in season 3 lee sin use to be the poster child of champions of mobility creep in champions. The fact that you are calling him a middish mobility champion is actually highlighting the issue the OP was making.

SnowbrandAug 18, 20191 votes

I think it's a myth sort of, mobility is needed for outplays and higher skillceling in the game. It's just a natural evolution of a game that used to be based on point and click champs (autoattacks are still only point and click atm) and only one way to move around, making outplays especially at higher levels less and less comon and the game more predictable and less interesting. There is already counterplay to high mobility like grounding effects or cc. Tho, slows should affect mobility spells to slow the speed/range of dashes for example, I think.

BugogAug 18, 20198 votes

So your argument is "..bu bu bu but muh LCS big plays!".

The problem is how do you power budget around characters that can almost always have another on command wall jump or other safe disengage/reengage tool? Do you make it so they get curbstomped in lane by champions that don't have those safety tools? Riot doesn't think so, which is why we can have champions with 45% win rates that are still OP, it's just that the slobbering masses are too potato to play them.

On the flip side support role is filled with champions that either have a engage only tool (alistar/leona) or can only rely on good positioning (soraka, janna, sona, etc). With all the mobility in the game, combined with the high damage burst meta, these champions are useless if your team isn't ahead because they're little more than high reward minions.

Grounding is also crap because only 2(?) champions have it. Can't wait for the grounding immune multidash champion that they are probably working on.

SnowbrandAug 18, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So your argument is "..bu bu bu but muh LCS big plays!".

The problem is how do you power budget around characters that can almost always have another on command wall jump or other safe disengage/reengage tool? Do you make it so they get curbstomped in lane by champions that don't have those safety tools? Riot doesn't think so, which is why we can have champions with 45% win rates that are still OP, it's just that the slobbering masses are too potato to play them.

On the flip side support role is filled with champions that either have a engage only tool (alistar/leona) or can only rely on good positioning (soraka, janna, sona, etc). With all the mobility in the game, combined with the high damage burst meta, these champions are useless if your team isn't ahead because they're little more than high reward minions.

Grounding is also crap because only 2(?) champions have it. Can't wait for the grounding immune multidash champion that they are probably working on.

Even on lower elo too I would say. It's good for the game being less statchecky and more open to outplays and so on. Then there have to be ways you can play against it, but cc is always good to shutdown mobility. Mobility have existed for a long time with champions like talon, zed, riven. Obviously, that have worked for 7-8 years. you might say, but cc is hard to hit. Yes, but it's also hard to use mobility right. Both usually requires skill.

Most high mobility champs have decent winrates except akali, irelia and kalista maybe. I don't mind them having lower winrates then the average champion, since they usually takes more skill. Yea, I agree that a lot of those older champions need some kind of updates to stay relevant tho. To make them more suited. That doesn't mean that you have to give them mobility too. Stuff like Swain, Mordekaiser, Pantheon, morgana for example are doing good without getting mobility in their kits.

Poppy, Singed and Cassio. Think that's fine, maye 1 or 2 more champions that have it. As I said, any CC counter dashes too. Just pick ahri, malzahar or Lissandra for example.

BugogAug 19, 20196 votes

CC counters everything. Too much tank? CC it til it dies. Too much dps? CC it til it dies. I think we can agree that falling back to a balance argument based on CC is going to go nowhere.

The champs you brought up are also questionable.

Talon - reworked to have more mobility with a wall jump Riven - either op or useless, has been a balance nightmare for years. Mostly because the basic idea of a 1v9 AoE multidash champion doesn't start from a healthy position. Zed - Either zero or hero, depending on items and runes at any given time. Either you can kill them and win once you hit 6, or he's garbage tier Swain - dunno much about him, maybe you're right Mordekaiser - He has a pull that cancels mobility and the ability to force them to fight in a small arena where they can't use most disengage mobility. Definitely part of the new fuckery. Panth - long range jump, short range jump. The biggest piece of fuckery creep here is his directional immunity, which we can expect more of. Morgana - They nerf her every time she goes to mid lane, so she's allowed to exist in the "no mobility support" bubble.

But the point of mobility creep is that they just keep overstuffing kits with more and more mobility (and other fuckery), but they undervalue how much that is worth in securing or denying kills, so the older champions just keep falling behind. It also feeds into this "one trick" mentality that you can exist on getting good with one champion, because that champion can 1v1 anything if you get good enough. And those akali/yasuo/riven/irelia/(and it looks like qiyana) one tricks are by far the most toxic in the game.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 19, 20191 votes

I mostly agree, and while morde's kit in isolation is cool, I have to admit that his ult can be unfair if you can't afford to put QSS in your build, and if he's ahead.

However, I don't think that Panth's kit with the new directional invulnerability is so bad. It can be counterplayed without needing insane mobility, and he does so little damage in the duration of that ability. Plus it gives him interesting new choices. On the other hand, he doesn't really have significantly more mobility than before, as he already had a jump, and his ult was similar, but MUCH slower and harder to land, except with better range I believe.