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Ryze's Build

The Ecdysiast··1 votes·2,243 views

So, according to champion.gg a finished build for Ryze looks like: item 3040 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3157 item 3165 Which (at level 18 with Manaflow Band) will give you: 730 AP 3959 mana 30% CDR

But I did some experimentation in Practice Tool to find the best stat combination, and here are my most notable findings:

item 3040 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3285 item 3027 862 AP 5580 mana 30% CDR

All around better scaling, and the increase to the shield plus health from RoA may make the added defense from Morello and Zhonya's unnecessary. The downside is that you have to wait 10 minutes after finishing RoA. Which is why people don't even buy RoA on him normally any more. It just isn't stronger quick enough.

item 3040 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3285 item 3285 859 AP 5861 mana 40% CDR

That's right, two Luden's Echoes. This build has the highest scaling of all the builds I tested, because the higher mana puts all your abilities just a bit higher than they would be with RoA. And additionally, it maxes out your CDR unlike his usual build or the RoA build. So the AP and mana would actually be even higher with Transcendence. But of course, the downside is that you're paying full Luden's price for only one Luden's passive.

item 3040 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3285 item 3030 844 AP 5830 mana 40% CDR

The scaling is roughly equivalent to the RoA build, so it slightly loses out in scaling when compared to the double Luden's, but makes up for that in three ways. First, it has the same benefit of being better than RoA earlier. Second, GLP is significantly cheaper than Luden's, so you can finish it much sooner. And third, you have both GLP's active and Luden's passive. So your burst damage will actually be higher and you'll have extra CC. Plus it has the same extra 10% CDR as the double Luden's build.

**Based on my testing, I'd say this is actually what people should be building on Ryze. (with GLP second). It would require some in-game testing, but I think the added shield amount and uptime from the scaling and CDR would make lacking Morello's and Zhonya's not matter. **

Some side notes:

  • I specifically did not use Transcendence, but it would push the damage of the builds that reach 40% higher anyway, so the conclusion remains.
  • I tried fooling around with Liandry's, but building for scaling and having Void Staff ended up with higher DPS even despite the practice dummy's insane HP.
  • I tried just a bunch of Luden's, but of course lacking Void and Rabadan's made it incredibly weak even compared to the normal build.
  • All three lost chapter items are actually gold efficient even when you don't include HASTE from two of them, so stacking them doesn't hinder the build.
  • I did try Spellbinder in the build, but it ended up being weaker than the three others.

13 Comments

Syrile2 votes

Also, the third build has the same issue with multiple Haste items and does not give you 40% CDR either.

Syrile1 votes

The only problems with it is that you are paying for things you are not getting. For example, with Staff and GLP and Luden's all have Haste, you are paying for Haste on three items. Buying this first and second means you are weakening yourself at this stage of the game by a lot of gold. Generally, a lot of games are over at three items or less so the scaling is not nearly as strong. Also, you lose out on the armor and protection provided by Zhonya's and the Grievous Wounds with Morello. Also, because the items have Haste, you only have 30% CDR in that final build.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Ah, you probably commented before I added it to the notes, but no, that isn't a problem.

All three items are gold efficient without including Haste, so you aren't paying for anything you aren't getting. And since Haste is only half of the CDR, you do still get the other 10% each from both Luden's and GLP. So going Archangel's > GLP will get you to 30%, and way faster than his current popular build.

A Ryze game that doesn't get you to at least 4 items is a Ryze game you lost anyway. So not only would it not matter if the scaling wasn't as good as his current Archangel > Morello > Zhonya's/Rab , but the scaling is better anyway.

And I'm not sure why you said it, incorrectly, twice, but no, you do get to 40% with the final build. Archangel's grants 10% + 10% from Haste, plus 10% from Luden's, plus 10% from GLP. That's still 40% even with the Haste not applying for two of them.

Syrile1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QsowzMrP,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T09:21:05.857+0000)

Ah, you probably commented before I added it to the notes, but no, that isn't a problem.

All three items are gold efficient without including Haste, so you aren't paying for anything you aren't getting. And since Haste is only half of the CDR, you do still get the other 10% each from both Luden's and GLP. So going Archangel's > GLP will get you to 30%, and way faster than his current popular build.

A Ryze game that doesn't get you to at least 4 items is a Ryze game you lost anyway. So not only would it not matter if the scaling wasn't as good as his current Archangel > Morello > Zhonya's/Rab , but the scaling is better anyway.

And I'm not sure why you said it, incorrectly, twice, but no, you do get to 40% with the final build. Archangel's grants 10% + 10% from Haste, plus 10% from Luden's, plus 10% from GLP. That's still 40% even with the Haste not applying for two of them.

I slipped on the original CDR of the item, so it will be 40%. It has been a long day... However, you are still paying for things you will not get. For example, instead of buying two Luden's, why not buy a Spellbinder's Orb? On a regular Q, you would do very slightly less damage (like 6) while providing the same shield, your Rune Prison would be stronger entirely and your Flux would do a tiny bit less base damage (like 4). However, when you use the active you will blow people up even more, have a higher base movement speed, and it is less expensive. At that point in the game mana issues are rarely a problem.

This is just one example, but generally, buying unique passives multiple times is much weaker than not. Exceptions, of course, but I would much rather be able to wreck a team with that Active and have the higher movement speed for cheaper rather than do 4-6 higher pre-mitigation damage on my abilities.

And Grevious Wounds and Zhonya's is still overall stronger to have, in most cases. Not in all, as was pointed out, but in general, you need utility as well.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Because it's weaker. Spellbinder's was the first item I tested in that item spot, actually. And it even surprised me how much weaker it is. For Ryze (and only Ryze, because of his passive) 600 extra mana beats 40 extra AP.

It's not about the mana costs, but rather the mana scaling. Plus, with a build that already takes him to 40% without Transcendence, you can afford to take Celerity for a ton of MS far more often than Spellbinder.

And Haste is one of the only unique effects that is an exception, because it's solely a regular amount of a stat. Like I said, all three items are still gold efficient without including it, and you still get all three of their other passives/actives.

As for Morello and Zhonya's, Morello will be better to have against a heavy healer, not in "most" cases. And Zhonya's used to be better, when he could cheese it with his ultimate. But now, not so much. And neither is especially better at defense than having a stronger shield up more often.

Syrile1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QsowzMrP,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T16:31:42.142+0000)

Because it's weaker. Spellbinder's was the first item I tested in that item spot, actually. And it even surprised me how much weaker it is. For Ryze (and only Ryze, because of his passive) 600 extra mana beats 40 extra AP.

It's not about the mana costs, but rather the mana scaling. Plus, with a build that already takes him to 40% without Transcendence, you can afford to take Celerity for a ton of MS far more often than Spellbinder.

And Haste is one of the only unique effects that is an exception, because it's solely a regular amount of a stat. Like I said, all three items are still gold efficient without including it, and you still get all three of their other passives/actives.

As for Morello and Zhonya's, Morello will be better to have against a heavy healer, not in "most" cases. And Zhonya's used to be better, when he could cheese it with his ultimate. But now, not so much. And neither is especially better at defense than having a stronger shield up more often.

3% of 600 is not close to equal to the active effect. And Spellbinder's has 10% movement speed without the Active. As for Morello... Almost all champions nowadays have a ton of healing. Especially the popular ones. Also, Spell Penetration changes the math more than a few points of AP will.

Celerity, however, is good. But meh.. I would rather be able to burst through the team fight than hit for 3-6 extra damage per spell, reduced to 2-5 after MR.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Like I told you, I tested it out. You could bring it if you want less consistent strength, but that's the same problem you have by buying RoA. I'm looking for early, consistent strength. And GLP does that better than Spellbinder's.

Also tested the DPS, and it's lower with the normal build.

Let's just get this out of the way for further discussion: Anything you think I didn't test, I did test. Except for bringing it into an actual game.

It's not 3-6 extra damage per spell. It's close to 200 increased DPS, even against the dummy's 100 MR. You'd burst through the enemies far quicker.

If you don't wanna try it out, you're free not to. But I'm trying to find a way to bring Ryze out of the slump he's in.

Syrile1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QsowzMrP,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T17:02:47.954+0000)

Like I told you, I tested it out. You could bring it if you want less consistent strength, but that's the same problem you have by buying RoA. I'm looking for early, consistent strength. And GLP does that better than Spellbinder's.

Also tested the DPS, and it's lower with the normal build.

Let's just get this out of the way for further discussion: Anything you think I didn't test, I did test. Except for bringing it into an actual game.

It's not 3-6 extra damage per spell. It's close to 200 increased DPS, even against the dummy's 100 MR. You'd burst through the enemies far quicker.

If you don't wanna try it out, you're free not to. But I'm trying to find a way to bring Ryze out of the slump he's in.

Q gains bonus damage equal to 3% of mana. The other two abilities are 2% and 1%. The AP ratios compared to Spellbinder says this math that I provided is right. When charged, it is significantly higher. What is it you are doing differently that allows you to break the math?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Ah, I see the issue. You're not including his passive in your calculations.

With the full build-- just to keep it easy so I don't have to go back into practice tool when I should be studying for a midterm--, he actually gains 44% more mana thanks to his AP. That's 864 mana, not just 600.

We can use his normal build for reference, since Spellbinder's doesn't give any mana, and you can see that at full build the alternative is around 1850 more mana total.

Plus, it would make stacking Tear early even safer, giving you more time in lane without having to back as well as almost negating the chance of running out.

However, even with the active from Spellbinder's, the added burst from GLP and Luden's is still higher. And both can occur more often than Spellbinder's. The movement speed is negligible because you'l have enough from Phase Rush and can take Celerity anyway.

Syrile1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QsowzMrP,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-22T17:53:13.814+0000)

Ah, I see the issue. You're not including his passive in your calculations.

With the full build-- just to keep it easy so I don't have to go back into practice tool when I should be studying for a midterm--, he actually gains 44% more mana thanks to his AP. That's 864 mana, not just 600.

We can use his normal build for reference, since Spellbinder's doesn't give any mana, and you can see that at full build the alternative is around 1850 more mana total.

Plus, it would make stacking Tear early even safer, giving you more time in lane without having to back as well as almost negating the chance of running out.

However, even with the active from Spellbinder's, the added burst from GLP and Luden's is still higher. And both can occur more often than Spellbinder's. The movement speed is negligible because you'l have enough from Phase Rush and can take Celerity anyway.

No, I did not forget that. It is just that the difference is another 6-7 damage for Q. 3% of 264 is really not that much in comparison. Either way, I applaud doing a lot of testing. Though 60% movement speed is not really negligible though. But, it might be a little unnecessary, heh.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

I'm tellin' ya, I did the testing with the practice tool. It comes out to more damage.

giannishannibal1 votes

Best stat combination of yours is damage while ryze is a battle mage aka fight close and trade blows. Your builds does offer more damage overall it loses resistances and HP. So an assasin can burst him before ryze can use his EWQ combo to get his shield and MS to kite and survive and kill the enemy.

However if you get a big lead in the early and you want to snowball harder and your team has very good peeling for ryze to help him unleash all his combos then yes going for more damage than the regular one is a fine/good idea. But nowadays playing anything that isnt damage oriented like tanks is rare and its even more rare to find someone who will dedicate himself to protect you and peel for you in order to allow ryze to carry.

Hence the opgg build is the build that higher elo suggest cause it takes in mind most situations and team compositions. Its not perfect for every game, for every team comp, for every lane match up or for every playstyle/gameplan. Yours builds are if you get early lead and you want more damage to snowball and it requires someone to heal you or shield you or protect you for fast moving targets or targets with more range than ryze.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Easy, just W E Q instead, so they don't get to you and you still get the shield. Besides, just 300 health from Morello doesn't actually boost your health enough to survive the burst from a competent assassin.

The point of the build is that it would help you get that lead in the first place, while the Morello one entirely relies on the game lasting long enough to finish other items. And it's exactly because people play more damage than tanks nowadays that having better burst would be better than having a little bit of extra health.

The thing is, the current build actually... doesn't work in most situations nor most team compositions. That's why he's constantly sitting in dead last in performance. Add to that there aren't actually many people playing Ryze to test out new builds, and what we've got is complete stagnation.

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