The real Lee Sin nerf

Ahristocats··19 votes·2,381 views

Passive: attack speed rescaled to 30/40/50% upgraded at lvl 11 and 16 from 40% Q %hp damage rescaled to 4/5/6/7/8% from 8% all rank

26 Comments

dominusx3 votes

make it scale more into the late game to compensate. talking about Q.

WoonStruck6 votes

Q naturally scales into late game already due to being %HP damage.

Lee needs nerfs atm, not power redistribution.

Jayce needs power redistribution. Lee needs nerfs. His late game isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Especially Titanic+Cleaver builds.

Ahristocats9 votes

If they don't nerf his ulti to 150/300/450 then he doesn't need it, his late game power would be already fine

problem is that riot nerfed his ulti for no reason, any player with a brain would see that lee sin issue is how gamebreaking his early game is Not only his clear is safe (due to again his attack speed on passive) but his damage is so fucking high while he ganks/duel someone

i can show you moments where lee sin removed 50% of my hp in 0.75 seconds with thunderlord both Q, E and one AA

riot just nerfed his ulti to shut the fuck board about lee sin, chance that lee will remain overpowered in high elo after this nerf is 99%

dominusx2 votes

u dont have to tell me i was playing with my friends in flex que before the reset and he was PM'ing me to go fk myself everytime i combo'd him with lee sin xD fun times.

Tukan Tonko1 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qo3q81Xx,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-12-16T16:42:58.171+0000)

If they don't nerf his ulti to 150/300/450 then he doesn't need it, his late game power would be already fine

problem is that riot nerfed his ulti for no reason, any player with a brain would see that lee sin issue is how gamebreaking his early game is Not only his clear is safe (due to again his attack speed on passive) but his damage is so fucking high while he ganks/duel someone

i can show you moments where lee sin removed 50% of my hp in 0.75 seconds with thunderlord both Q, E and one AA

riot just nerfed his ulti to shut the fuck board about lee sin, chance that lee will remain overpowered in high elo after this nerf is 99%

There is a reason to nerf his ult.

Lee is fighter, but his enormous flat damage on his ult + big AD ratio is a big problem. Not just because it can hit multiple people, that would be okay, the problem is that thanks to his ult he becomes assassin with zero counterplay R->Q->E combo, you can't avoid it and in early game he will just kill any squishy target just like that. Nerfing his ult was a healthy change. But they decided not to do it. Dunno, to shut the *** Lee mains? xD

Sona x Rubick2 votes

Lee was designed as an assassin secondary that's normal to have high damage

And i never saw a lee killing in early game someone with R-Q-E and he would not kill someone with the %hp damage nerf

Lee in late game isn't a problem at all, he can't do the R-Q combo because he needs to use the Q to get to you

in late game his ulti is used 90% of the time to insec someone or to AOE knock up in both cases nerfing the base damage won't do shit

and not nerfing his early game will make him still overpowered

Tukan Tonko1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qo3q81Xx,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2016-12-16T23:12:27.889+0000)

Lee was designed as an assassin secondary that's normal to have high damage

And i never saw a lee killing in early game someone with R-Q-E and he would not kill someone with the %hp damage nerf

Lee in late game isn't a problem at all, he can't do the R-Q combo because he needs to use the Q to get to you

in late game his ulti is used 90% of the time to insec someone or to AOE knock up in both cases nerfing the base damage won't do shit

and not nerfing his early game will make him still overpowered

It would nerf his early game indeed. Also, this would make him think twice before ulting, thus the champion would require more skill, let's be honest, he may be one of the champions with highest skill ceiling but he is not hard to play and not hard to play well, too. His ult would be more like utility option than IK early game button. Just like in late game. That would be healthy for him for sure. Yeah, most of the damage comes from Q. but that's %missing HP. And ult helps with this a lot. And if you can't move thanks to his ult there is really no counterplay at all.

And you really didn't see Lee killing with that combo? Try to remember.

But yeah, if his Q is nerfed it would be allright, too. Still, nerfing ult is just a better option in my opinion.

SaladSavior2151 votes

His ult was basically nothing except follow up his combo that he does . Q R Q and the other abilities. Needing his ult changed nothing.

TwinkiePro2 votes

I'm actually Okay with that Q change. The passive I have trouble seeing as a meaningful change as Lee needs it to clear effectively. Attack speed is the most effective stat in the jungle for auto attack based champions, so this would hurt him far worse than needed.

On a side note, Lee doesn't need nerfs. Nothing about him is indicative of OP, no stat whatsoever supports this.

Ahristocats1 votes

yes his passive nerf might hurt him but it's really necessary 40% attack speed for each spell is so broken no one realises it

you should give him compensation but nerfing the passive is needed to balance him

TwinkiePro1 votes

Balance him why? Should we nerf Ezreal? He sits at a 50% winrate, clearly higher than Lee, with a 22% play rate, much less so than Lee. Ezreal also gets attack speed just for landing abilities, and it scales MUCH HARDER than Lee Sin. I don't see anyone calling for Ez to be gutted.

NiceTryVi3 votes

Ez doesn't skullfuck everyone he goes against, Lee does. He has a 50% winrate, but a 34% playrate in Plat+. That is absolutely insane, he maintains an even winrate even though he is in a third of all ranked games. Also, Ezreal doesn't have the early game faceroll that Lee has. A Lee sin can invade you at lvl 2 and make your game miserable with ease.

TwinkiePro1 votes

"Ez doesn't skull fuck everyone" Lee has a 50% winrate. At most he's skull fucking 50% of the time. So you are saying someone with a high playrate needs to be trash? Then how about Caitlyn? 2nd most played and skullfucks more than Lee in literally every stage of the game, while even maintaining a higher winrate.

How about Vi? Literally Lee with better scaling post 6. Wanna talk about skullfuck? point and click ult with zero counterplay. clicked and bursted, 80% of the time dead. 15% play rate with a ludicrous 53.8% winrate.

but hey, lets nerf a champ because they are popular and just barely maintains an even winrate.

NiceTryVi1 votes

Ok, so it is clear to me that you don't actually know how to play the game. Lee does not transition well to late game. So if you can make your game go 30 min or more, Lee is probably going to lose. However, he is an early game monster. If it is a short game, and the Lee is any kind of competent, he will ruin you. He has a 54% win ratio at or before 25 min, and 51% between 25-30 minutes. After that, it's a 49% until 35, and a 47% at 40+ minutes. Also, he is extremely mechanical. So, like Vayne, that means he should be hard to master, but rewarding if you do. His winrate would not be a problem if it wasn't for the fact that he is in a third of the games. This is absolutely insane, no champion with that high of a skill floor should be seeing that kind of play and still have the success Lee sees.

I never said Cait shouldn't be nerfed, in fact, I hate Cait. She is toxic and unfun to play against. I don't know where you came from thinking I don't want her nerfed, but I do. So get off your high horse. As for Vi, her ult is supposed to be undodgeable. You know why? SHE HAS TO COMPLETE ANY ULT SHE STARTS. So if a Vi ults you, and you're all alone, yeah, you're probably gonna die. But that's what Vi does, she picks people and kills them. But if you are with your team, you can actually take Vi to your team. You can dash or flash or whatever to get yourself closer to your teammates so when she lands, she has to deal with them as well as you. There is counterplay to her ult, but you have to actually use your brain to fix the situation instead of buttonmashing. Do not try to challenge me on my main, I know exactly what her strengths and weaknesses are, and trust me, Vi falls off in the late game just like Lee does. Vi is strongest in the mid game, Lee in the early.

TwinkiePro1 votes

And why do you think Lee loses after 30 minutes? If he "skullfucked" everyone into submission early game, how does he still lose 53% of the time after 40 minutes? If his oppressive early game is that strong, shouldn't that reflect in the late game? Isn't he technically the best kind of early game bully? One who starts great but falls hard?

40% of people who play him have over 50 games on him. That's a fairly dedicated playerbase. I myself have 131 games dating back almost a year and a half.

Don't challenge you on your main? Were those the words you really typed? Do you know the irony of your own words there? Number 3 top jungler with a 15% playrate. 53.9% winrate with LITERALLY less than 25% of the player base with over 50 games. Do you know how hypocritical you are? With less games played Vi does better than Lee. 54% winrate at all stages except after 40 minutes, which even then is still above 51%. And yet you cry about Lee. Vi even statistically does better early game. 54.6 versus Lee's 54.1. All she does is stay steady while Lee drops like a hot rock through butter.

She literally does better than Lee at every stage of the game on average, even with a less experienced player base. Yes, Lee is harder, and it certainly shows as even with a playerbase of very experienced and non experienced, he maintains a 50% average, literally the most balanced you can get.

Just try to defend Vi. And quit the ad hominids. Don't be that guy that attacks people.

NiceTryVi1 votes

Ok, buddy sit down, cause its school time. Lee Sin loses late because he doesn't scale. Therefore, no matter how hard he fucks you early, if you dig your nails in and last it out, you can beat him. That doesn't make his early game domination any less.

50 games is next to nothing. I have recently started to pick up Graves, and I have a ton of games on him. I don't feel close to as confident on him as Vi. 100 games is closer to a comfort zone, 50 is "familiar". So of course Vi will have a win rate higher than Lee for the less experienced players, because she is far simpler. The problem is, Lee's inexperienced players STILL DO TOO WELL WITH HIM. He should be exceedingly difficult to play well until you have 100-150 games on him, simply because he should require a lot of practice to get his moves down properly so you can use them right ingame. Now all he has to do is Q E R and you die. No exactly what a high skill-floor champ is supposed to have. Even worse when you consider he can go in with ease and then jump right back out with his wardhop.

You challenged me on Vi's ult. I said not to because I actually play her and know what works as and against her. You claim it has no counterplay when it in fact has quite a bit.

Vi does better because of CoC, if you go back a few patches before it existed, you would see winrates 3-4% lower than they currently are and playrates 10% lower. You're only jumping on the bitch train because she is suddenly stronger than she used to be due to a poor idea on riot's part. Your logic about Le is so backwards it isnt even funny. The higher the percent played the more bad players of a champ there is. While people think that you gain good and bad players at the same rate, that is not true. There are far more bad players out there than good players, so the higher the playrate, the higher the ratio of bad players to good. Therefore, the higher a champion's playrate is, the lower their winrate should be. Holding an even playrate while a third of players pick him mean that he is way overloaded and too strong.

So please, lay some more of your Silver 5 logic on me about how Vi is so broken, and your obviously unbiased defense of Lee, who everyone else in the game has wanted nerfed for months, by the way. Especially when people only got unhappy with Vi when CoC came out, and before that had a 51% winrate with a playrate barely a sixth of Lee's.

TwinkiePro1 votes

Look, more Ad Hominids, even using my rank to somehow act as if you are more knowledgeable. Like, you were Gold 5 and played nearly 10 times more ranked than me. I could get to gold 5 if I ACTUALLY PLAYED RANKED MORE THAN THRICE A MONTH. So do not use rank as an excuse. Get off your high horse.

So Vi's early game is nearly as strong as Lee's. Hell, she basically counters him and wins against him 54% of the time. In fact, when it comes to Lee and if you look at statistics, bronze maintains an average of 47-48% winrate, and it consistently climbs by elo as well, where in diamond he sits at a winrate that fluctuates between 49 to 51.

Also, Vi herself May not be broken, but the fact is she stiil does better than Lee, even before CoC. You also basically admit here that Vi is broken with CoC, this is like saying Cait is fine if you don't count hurricane, it's a silly scenario.

The higher the percent played the more bad players of a champ there is. While people think that you gain good and bad players at the same rate, that is not true. There are far more bad players out there than good players, so the higher the playrate, the higher the ratio of bad players to good. Therefore, the higher a champion's playrate is, the lower their winrate should be. Holding an even playrate while a third of players pick him mean that he is way overloaded and too strong.

Should, but isn't. You cannot apply that logic to only Lee Sin and ignore the many other champs, where Vi is included. She gained an increase of 10% playrate, and all at the same time rose 4-5% winrate. Where are those bad players you spoke of? in those statistics and doing fine with her.

The problem is, Lee's inexperienced players STILL DO TOO WELL WITH HIM.

How is that a bad thing? It's not even breaking 49% in bronze, how is that even indicative of anything? Are you saying high skill ceiling champs should be trash in inexperienced players hands? If lee has so many bad players doing well with him, why aren't they winning more than 49% of their games? Unlike Vi whose winrate goes even higher as people are more experienced with her. Just by playing Vi you have a better chance of winning, good at her or not.

Anivia is doing great, velkoz, jayce, singed, karthus, fiora and Gangplank are all fairly complex in one way or another. Yet most of the list is dominated by low skill ceiling champs, which is generally fine, but shouldn't be so in plat+.

as for saying Vi is op, I can list some numbers and nuances that differ between the champs, all calculated against a Single champ:

With 0 bonus AD at 18: Vi will do 690 base +132.25 per E. 2 Charges puts this at a total of 955~ in a full rotation. she also has 2 CC in the form of Q and R, as well as 10% hp damage and 20% armor reduction.

Lee post nerf: Lee will do a total of 990 with base alone with a full rotaion. His Q also has 8% missing, and his E a slow. His ultimate has a knock back.

With their average builds: Vi does a grand total of 1584, plus 20% arpen after 3 strikes, and 14% of max hp. This last number can vary anywhere from 230 - 338 against base health alone, not including bonus health. this makes max damage 1922.

For Lee, he does a grand total of 1758, plus 8% of missing. This will do anywhere from almost nothing at full hp (although they cant be at full hp if you hit them can they?) to 131 - 193 off of base hp alone, and that is if the enemy is at 1hp. this makes the max damage 1951. If you want to include the damage pre-nerf, he does 2101.

TL;DR: In summation, Lee's full combo in the optimal settings does 29 (179 pre-nerf) more damage than Vi. If Lee is stronger, why does he lose so much more? because he is hard, and shows it. On top of that, Vi has a better early game. That is getting schooled.

NiceTryVi1 votes

Ok first, it is Ad Hominem. If you are gonna use a phrase, spell it right.

Well here is the thing, I peaked in Gold 2 around August, but when people flooded ranked at the end of the season I was brought down. This isn't an isolated incident, this happens to everyone. However, I noticed you never got above Silver 5. It doesn't matter that you didn't play often, there are tons of high elo player that don't play often. I mentioned your rank because here is the thing. Silver 5 is not good. It's barely not bad. You don't understand balance or how the game works with most experienced players. Lee was a monster to almost everyone. You think he counters Vi, but you are dead wrong. His early power dominated the jungle before CoC, but you apparently weren't good enough to use it properly if you think that it didn't. That's not an ad hominem, its the truth, and you can ask anyone gold and above that isn't a lee main. I'm not using rank as an excuse, I'm using it as a point. It's the difference between a Middle schooler arguing with a High school senior about a Physics problem. I have passed the test of game knowledge and skill that you clearly have not.

I am not applying the good player/poor player numbers to only Lee, it applies to every champion. However, Vi is an easier champion to play than Lee. Lee is highly mechanical. Any increase in playerbase for Lee would have far more bad players than good for him than almost any other champion out there because of this. And here is the thing about your numbers. They are inherently flawed because they do not take the cooldowns into account. One rotation for Vi consists of, at 30% CDR, that damage, but it takes 5.6 seconds for her Q to come back up, which only damages you once with flat damage, and the same for her E, which is a AA reset. Her ult takes 56 seconds. Lee Sin on the other hand, only needs 4.9 seconds for his Q, which damages you twice and is an execute, his AoE damage and reveal is on a 7 second CD, and his ult is only on a 42 second cooldown. Vi's Q is also her only escape, while lee can jump to an allied ward, minion, or champion, and get a shield out of it too. Vi's ult only locks you down, but Lee's (which is also point and click, and unstoppable, by the way) can put you into the middle of his team, or it can knock a tank behind the enemy backline. You are going to use more than one rotation of abilities in a fight unless you get absolutely blown up, so cooldown matters.

In terms of Q, lee has the far advantage, being able to lay down far more damage, with a lower cooldown, further range, and it is even more of an advantage when he can get similar damage to Vi's Q without even having to follow it. Vi's Q provides a short (~.7 sec) knockback when it hits an enemy, but Lee can throw out his Q just as a skillshot poke.

For W, it is situational. W is Vi's armor shred and bonus damage, but Lee gets a shield and reposition for his, along with sustain on the second cast. So I am going to say Vi has the very slight advantage, just from the raw damage it gives, and fact that she doesn't have to use mana for it.

For E, Lee again has the advantage. It has a 4.4 second longer cooldown, but the first cast is an AoE damage and gives true sight, and the second cast slows everyone hit by the first. Vi's E is only an AA reset, and the cone damage is rarely used to much effect. Lee wins here again, as with the stealth changes, the reveal is extremely useful. The slow also keeps his target in rage of his energy-refunding AAs.

For R, Vi's is a point and click with 800 range, where she cannot be stopped and will knock up her target for 1.25 seconds. However, once cast she must complete it, as her ult puts hard CC on her that cannot be removed. She moves at a fair pace, and the ring around her target makes her easy to see coming and makes her target clear. The target can gain a spell shield from an ally or themselves, which will negate the knockup and damage of the ult, but Vi will be forced to go into the animation, leaving her completely open for those 1.25 seconds, with no benefits at all, besides the dubious benefit of now being closer to the enemy. It does 3/4 of its modest damage to everyone she passes through, and knocks them aside a small distance. Max damage is 450 + 140% BAD. At 30% CDR, it has a 56 second cooldown.

Lee's R is also a point and click, with 375 range and knocks his target back up to 1200 units over 1 second. When cast, his target is rooted in place and there is a .25 second delay before they are hit. This does 600 + 200% BAD. If the target hits any number of their allies while traveling, that ally takes not only the full damage of the kick, but an additional 18% of the kicked target's health as bonus damage, and is knocked up themselves for a second. In addition, a Lee player with quick fingers can cast the ult and immediately flash to a different point relative to his target in order to kick them in the desired direction. It can only be spellshielded if the target or ally has predicted the kick, as a quarter second (250 ms) is barely enough time to react to the kick at all, let alone use an ability. At 30% CDR, it has a 42 second cooldown.

Lee has the advantage in Q, E, and R, with VI only taking W by a very slim margin. As I stated before, the reason Vi has a higher winrate than Lee is because she is easier. Lee should be a very difficult champion to play that rewards people who play him well, much like Vayne should be. Just like no everone should be Gosu, not everyone should dominate with Lee either. So yes, high skillfloor champions should be trash in inexperienced player's hands, because that is exactly what high skillfloor means. You did not take me to school, but instead provided me with the perfect opportunity to see you got an education.

TwinkiePro1 votes

Ok first, it is Ad Hominem. If you are gonna use a phrase, spell it right.

Auto correct did that twice it seems. I'll just let it do its own thing, its pain enough to fix any spelling mistakes on mobile. Also, what I called as ad hominem was you using my rank as a way to demean my knowledge of the game.

It's the difference between a Middle schooler arguing with a High school senior about a Physics problem. I have passed the test of game knowledge and skill that you clearly have not.

Simply taking a test and passing isn't indicative of knowledge and skill, but rather effort. I passed highschool purely off of test scores, scoring nearly perfectly in each region. However, I graduated with less than a 3.0 gpa because I never did the work necessary for the grades. Simply because I received a C in a class compared to your B does not mean you know more, you simply could have put in more effort.

However, I noticed you never got above Silver 5 If you are going to use my rank, you also need to put my winrate into question as well. during season 6, i peaked at a 54% winrate and it showed no signs of showing down. Hence why I said I could easily make gold were I to actually play ranked and I am fairly confident in that assessment for many reasons.

I am not applying the good player/poor player numbers to only Lee, it applies to every champion. However, Vi is an easier champion to play than Lee. Lee is highly mechanical. Any increase in playerbase for Lee would have far more bad players than good for him than almost any other champion out there because of this.

That is true and the numbers show for it. Over the course of the last 5 patches, his playrate rose from 29% to 34%, from a 48.3 to a 49.8 winrate. 1.5 points. Also, at his peak playrate of 37% last patch, his winrate was 49.7, dipping down by 1.3 points from the patch before where his playrate was 3 points lower.

Vi's ult only locks you down, but Lee's (which is also point and click, and unstoppable, by the way) can put you into the middle of his team, or it can knock a tank behind the enemy backline.

Vi's ult is one of the best engages in the game. A guaranteed point and click on the enemy squishy, not to mention it also unstoppable. R the squishy and you can knock away all your enemies in your path as well, also easier to line up compared to Lee's ult as it will always strike your target. Lee's ult requires more forethought to kick into an enemy, sometimes blowing a 5 minute cooldown to redirect it. The reason why I didn't take cooldowns into consideration is simply because both champs can kill an adc in a full rotation, with auto attacks of course, so I found it unnecessary to include.

Lee's R is also a point and click, with 375 range and knocks his target back up to 1200 units over 1 second. When cast, his target is rooted in place and there is a .25 second delay before they are hit. This does 600 + 200% BAD. If the target hits any number of their allies while traveling, that ally takes not only the full damage of the kick, but an additional 18% of the kicked target's health as bonus damage, and is knocked up themselves for a second. In addition, a Lee player with quick fingers can cast the ult and immediately flash to a different point relative to his target in order to kick them in the desired direction. It can only be spellshielded if the target or ally has predicted the kick, as a quarter second (250 ms) is barely enough time to react to the kick at all, let alone use an ability. At 30% CDR, it has a 42 second cooldown.

You neglect to mention that kicking a target into someone else can actually miss, and waste his ult. Vi does not have this problem as she will always do full damage to her main target. Prediction is an important part of the game. it is what makes fiora, morgana, and yasuo so strong as their predictions can negate a large portion of damage. This is also the same as complaining about Ez Q's being too fast to dodge. If lee is in melee range, expect an ult.

Also, 2 corrections. Lee ult will now do 450 at max rank, and it does 18% of bonus Hp including the Base and 200 BAD. To be fair, this could be changed to 75% of total plus 15% of bonus Hp. Gives a reason to kick the front line rather than Dive the back and feed yet feels more fair overall.

Lee has the advantage in Q, E, and R, with VI only taking W by a very slim margin.

I honestly still have to disagree with this. Every statistic still disagrees with this As Vi beats lee Sin at nearly every stage post 15 minutes, where they butt heads in slightly Lee's favor until that point. The thing with Lee is that he HAS to build AD. Vi could build triforce and cinder into full tank and still be useful to the team. Lee becomes a very mobile sack of potato that can sometimes pull of an insec.

Lee should be a very difficult champion to play that rewards people who play him well, much like Vayne should be.

I agree, and he is to a small degree. Take a look here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zEHKqLak-lee-sin-op-in-soloq-or-not This person did some digging of their own, where even the most experienced hardly break over 52%. That seems problematic don't you think? Shouldn't a champ like Lee sin with a High skill ceiling reward experience players more than those with Vi?

Let's also stop with the childish insults as it serves only to aggravate each other rather than providing meaningful additions to our arguments. As much as I hate those who bash Lee, I actually have respect for you simply because you provide a discussion, rather than brushing me off for "being biased," regardless whether that is true or not.

NiceTryVi1 votes

Ok, so you didn't put the effort in to learn the material. This does not magically bestow you with the knowledge of the material though. You just said you didn't put the effort in, while I did.

Simply because I received a C in a class compared to your B does not mean you know more, you simply could have put in more effort.

This statement tells me you don't really know how learning and acquiring knowledge works. If you don't put in the effort to learn, you don't get the knowledge. This is precisely the reason why a lot of people in higher ELOs do not take Bronze and Silver opinions seriously. You may have had the capacity, yes, but you didn't prove it. Just ass you said with high school, you didn't get a 3.0, but you claim you could have. I did very poorly in AP US History, but I got a 2000 on the SAT and 32 on the ACT. You could say the same for me, I did very well on the tests, but since I didn't prove myself in the history class, nobody would believe I am good at history. In the same vein, because you didn't get the grades, there is no way to prove you have, and you could just be making excuses. The only way to prove you can do something is to do it. Since you didn't achieve a high rank, then it can be inferred you lacked the knowledge and skill to pass your promo series.

Everything you say desperately tried to show Lee is not overpowered despite about 85% of the community at all ranks disagreeing with you. Even people that play Lee think he is overpowered, they just want to stomp people with him. Lee doesn't need to hit anyone with his ult to get the full damage out of it, but if he does, it does a lot more. You claim Vi does full damage to her target, well so does Lee. Vi actually does less damage to secondary targets, while Lee does more. Are you seeing the issue people are having with this? Also you say prediction is the name of the game and to expect lee to kick you, but there are pretty much always going to be 2 squishies and possibly 3 or even 4, with the current meta, and they will usually be standing next to each other, right? If a Lee gets close, who does the morg shield? Sivir could pop her own, yeah, but nobody else has one like that. Morg now has to pick someone to shield in the split second between Lee clicking on them and them getting kicked, and if one of the carries isn't a ton ahead, it's not easy to choose. Also, the Lee could decide to hols onto it and use it as a surprise attack or finisher, and with his team breathing down your neck as well, the basically instant-cast ult can be impossible to predict in standard game environments. Vi's ult is very clearly marked, and you can force her to follow you under a tower or into your team, and gives ample time for a spellshield.

Assuming both champions are at the same point in the game, in terms of gold and experience, Vi most certainly can not one-shot a squishy. They have heal and their own abilities to get away, and her damage is never quite enough. In my experience the only time I can straight up delete a carry is if I surprise them while they are alone, and I have a lead, or if I am so laughably far ahead that it wouldn't matter if they were alone or with 3 allies. Lee on the other hand, can 1v1 pretty much anyone that he is even with on gold and xp until about 30 minutes or so, when he becomes a tank, more or less. You also said specifically without autos. In that case, you must remove a ton of damage from Vi's calculations because her E's are auto resets. If you are just considering ability damage, then its only her R and Q, while Lee gets both Qs, his E, and his R. If you want to include Vi's W and E damage then you must include Lee threading his autos in between abilities, which Lees do, as well.

Lee could do the same as Vi btw, Cinder BC into full tank. That is a viable, but stupid, build for both of them as you waste their damage by not getting warrior, but I have seen it win. They will both still be useful, but as tanks with utility than bruisers.

Every statistic still disagrees with this As Vi beats lee Sin at nearly every stage post 15 minutes, where they butt heads in slightly Lee's favor until that point.

Earlier you said Vi has a better early game than Lee as a response to me saying that a Lee can be an absolute menace in the early game, which snowballs his team into the late. Which is it? Also yes, Vi beats lee in the midgame, because that is where Vi is supposed to shine. She hits the Warrior and lvl 6 minispike, and the lvl 11+Trinity spike is usually where she comes online, between 18-22 minutes depending on how well the game is going for her. Before the first one, Lee is king, and then between the two he is ahead, but is slowing down. Then once midgame arrives, assuming Lee did not snowball, Vi takes the lead. If Lee did snowball, he stays a monster, and if Vi snowballs, she becomes the monster. Lee may have to snowball to stay relevant late, but he is given a lot of tools to make it happen. Vi may not have to snowball like lee does, but if she does nothing by the time she gets trinity, she wont be spectacular either. Lee can ruin you before you have even build anything, Vi has to build some things herself before she can ruin anybody. This is why people hate Lee and why Lee is too strong, and why Vi is ok. She has not changed in the last year and a half, and the last time she saw competitive play was 2014. The problem here is not Vi, it is CoC. The last time Lee saw competitive play was the last time the pros had a match, and its been that way for 4 years.

Dominick Destine2 votes

Lee is getting balanced? LEE SIN?!?!?! The second most faceroll champ in the game is finally being brought to justice?! If this is true then

http://i.imgur.com/vwMin.gif?noredirect

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

Make his Q scale per level like shaco Q. 4% at level 1 through 6. 6% through level 9. 8 % at level 12 and 10% at level 16.

Pentium21 votes

Where are you reading theese things? Is this on PBE?

Sona x Rubick1 votes

suggested changes, pbe changes is ulti damage nerfed from 200/400/600 to 150/300/450

Pentium21 votes

I can live with that, just have to get used to the new dmg threshold.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Notice this thread RITO-senpai !

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