Magic Resist is Laughable

Dedrius·Dec 18, 2014·35 votes·4,933 views

With the Current Magic Pen, there isn't much a tank can do vs a mostly AP comp. I was against a full AP comp the other day with Visage, Banshees, Maw, and QSS and was still able to basically 1 hit me with his full combo. I know APC's are suppose to be able to burst down enemies then have to wait for CD's but what is really the point of playing a tanky champion when you will just get melted the same as if you build full damage. Magic Pen is just way too overbearing and magic resist is very underwhelming against an APC with something like Void Staff and Liandries.

Thoughts?

83 Comments

Done25Dec 18, 201412 votes

Defensive stats as a whole are garbage atm. Void Staff and Last Whisper are.simply too strong effect wise and too cheap cost wise. Not much a tank can do when Rengar and Vayne buy Whisper as their third or fourth item...

SmokingPuffinDec 19, 20142 votes

{quoted}

Defensive stats as a whole are garbage atm. Void Staff and Last Whisper are.simply too strong effect wise and too cheap cost wise. Not much a tank can do when Rengar and Vayne buy Whisper as their third or fourth item...

Offense must beat defense in the late game or the game stops working. Everyone just plays super late game champions and it's League of Scaling.

One thing that could happen is reducing the cost efficiency of these items against squishy targets. Currently, a Zed can consider building LW second, even if there is no tank in the game, because everyone has a fair amount of base armor for it to reduce.

Done25Dec 19, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Offense must beat defense in the late game or the game stops working. Everyone just plays super late game champions and it's League of Scaling.

One thing that could happen is reducing the cost efficiency of these items against squishy targets. Currently, a Zed can consider building LW second, even if there is no tank in the game, because everyone has a fair amount of base armor for it to reduce.

This is true, but people tend to forget another factor. To win a game you need to kill towers, not champions. The new Portal will help, but atm tanks tend to be REALLY bad at taking towers. What they need 15~~20 seconds to kill, Yi or Tristana can do in 3~~5.

JustMyBassCannonDec 18, 201412 votes

I'll agree that Magic Pen is a problem, mostly due to Sorcerer's Shoes. No, not Void Staff. Sorcerer's Shoes. The lowest investment MPen item in the game that 99% of mages buy.

Void Staff allows a mage to have a late game against tanks. It's difficult to deal damage if they're able to just stack up 200 MR, reducing your burst to 1/3. On some mages, that's enough to reduce your full burst rotation AP scaling below 100%. As in, your entire Q>W>E>R in whatever order suits them, all four spells' AP ratios added together, then divided by 3.

Sorcerer's Shoes, on the other hand, is the cheapest MPen item in the game. You immediately get 15 MPen, which is just as effective as Void Staff if your target builds no MR. If your opponent builds MR, well, there is the fact that they made Flat Pen work after % Pen.

"If my target builds no MR? Well, duh, people always build MR."

That may be (a lot of marksmen and some mages post-Chalice rework would disagree with you), but...isn't the point of Penetration being able to beat someone who built defense? Doesn't it seem weird that it punishes the people who don't build defense more harshly than the ones that do?

The problem with MPen isn't the fact that, late game, it can kill a tank. It's that, early game, it punishes anyone who doesn't build MR pretty harshly.

SmokingPuffinDec 19, 20143 votes

That may be (a lot of marksmen and some mages post-Chalice rework would disagree with you), but...isn't the point of Penetration being able to beat someone who built defense? Doesn't it seem weird that it punishes the people who don't build defense more harshly than the ones that do?

The problem with MPen isn't the fact that, late game, it can kill a tank. It's that, early game, it punishes anyone who doesn't build MR pretty harshly.

Killing squishy targets more effectively is the point of flat pen. Flat pen is approximately the worst offensive stat against tanks.

%pen is the tank busting stat, because tanks have more base for that % reduction.

JustMyBassCannonDec 19, 20142 votes

Alright, I didn't say it with very much clarity, but I was pointing out that the problem with Pen--especially MPen--is flat penetration, rather than percentage. % Pen is what gives an offense-based champion the ability to kill a tank sometime today. Flat penetration increases damage output on someone who hasn't built resistances.

Doesn't AP also increase damage on targets who haven't built resistance? So if they both have the same purpose, the only reason to build one is when the other doesn't increase damage as much.

Which is a hard thing to determine without breaking out the calculator. I haven't bothered to figure out the point where AP scaling is more worthwhile than flat MPen. But I know Flat Pen is almost guaranteed to be less valuable than AP the moment your target has 75-100 MR, depending on the scaling.

xXSomeoneElseDec 19, 20141 votes

as you said it all comes down to ap ratios on the mage you are playing if your champ has high ratios ex. Blitzcrank (mind you just an ex. lol but blitz has 1:1 ap ratios on 2 abilities) its better to just stack lots of ap, but if your champ has low ratios ex. Karthus its better to build penetration and I find that champs that do dot or percentage dmg are better with magic pen items than straight ap because the ticking dmg is so low that any resistances will reduce it to almost nothing that's why magic pen mundo used to (or still does idk) work so well because the magic pen would allow him to hit for all of his percentage dmg instead of a reduced amount. pretty much in summary high ratio/high burst = stack ap, damage over time/low ratios/percentage = stack mage pen.

SmokingPuffinDec 19, 20141 votes

So if they both have the same purpose, the only reason to build one is when the other doesn't increase damage as much.

AP is the general purpose make my spells better stat.

Flat pen is the I want to deal more damage to squishies stat. Because pen is inefficient in some situations (doesn't help your non-damage spells, doesn't do much against tanky targets), it's allowed to be stronger in others.

In particular, it's worth mentioning that item 3020 is a really efficient item for a reason -- it enables the early game mage power spike against squishy targets. Unlike +AP, +pen causes your base damages to hit harder, and at level 9 most of the typical mage damage profile is base damage.

I haven't bothered to figure out the point where AP scaling is more worthwhile than flat MPen. But I know Flat Pen is almost guaranteed to be less valuable than AP the moment your target has 75-100 MR, depending on the scaling.

As a rule of thumb, flat penetration is an inefficient stat if the target has a resistance item of that type. There are two exceptions: the absurdly cost efficient item 3134 and item 3020 , where it's a good idea to buy the pen item even if they have some resistance.

Lumus AvatarDec 18, 201410 votes

Armor is pretty much there too. Penetration should never have gone to %. Also, %max HP damage needs to appear on fewer champions. You can't even be an HP-based tank if three out of 5 opponents can deal %max HP damage on at least one ability. That should be the specialized purview of just a few champs (namely lower damage champs - I didn't mind how it was implemented on Shyvana and Sejuani before her rework.)

HayaishiDec 18, 20143 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lumus Avatar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmyzGO8F,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2014-12-18T19:58:33.794+0000)

Armor is pretty much there too. Penetration should never have gone to %. Also, %max HP damage needs to appear on fewer champions. You can't even be an HP-based tank if three out of 5 opponents can deal %max HP damage on at least one ability. That should be the specialized purview of just a few champs (namely lower damage champs - I didn't mind how it was implemented on Shyvana and Sejuani before her rework.)

% pen is necessary, otherwise tanks are unkillable late game.

Lumus AvatarDec 18, 20147 votes

but 40% from one item? your 2800g item just nullified like 8000g from my build...

HayaishiDec 18, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lumus Avatar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmyzGO8F,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2014-12-18T22:20:38.046+0000)

but 40% from one item? your 2800g item just nullified like 8000g from my build...

? ?

ADCs build 4 AD items and one AS.

It's not last whisper alone that's nullifying your build.

Lumus AvatarDec 18, 20144 votes

item 3035 gives 40 damage, and causes all physical damage to ignore 35% of target's total armor applied BEFORE Armor Penetration. That means that any armor I have, natural or bonus, is reduced by 35% off the bat. That could be a Randuin's Omen, a Thornmail, a Zhonya's Hourglass, and a Sunfire Cape.

Let's make that the example. Say I have built those 4 items. Together they give: 70+100+50+45 (respectively) = 265 armor. That's a lot of armor, but let's pretend they have an AD heavy comp so this is a good idea.

The total cost of that build is: 2850+2100+3300+2600(respectively) = 10850g

I'm level 16, for argument's sake, and I'm Garen. So I have 71 Natural Armor.

Last Whisper automatically ignores 35% of all armor, so 25 of my natural armor, gone. And 93 of my bonus armor, ignored. That's my total armor = 265+71 = 336 - (25+93=118) = 218. sigh sadly, that Armor = more HP comparison for explaining damage reduction /hp/armor thing completely befuddles me.

Anyway, let's say that Of the 10850g for the build, 6000g is just for the armor stat, the other 4850g representing the value of the other stats/passives. now then, 35% of 6000g is 2100g.

Last Whisper costs 2300g, that doesn't look so bad. But if we remove the damage value from LW by comparing it to 4 Longswords (4*360g=1440g) Then you're saying the value of the armor ignore is 900g. So by this highly convoluted comparison, you're removing 2100g value from my build for the cost of 900g in your build.

That was fun, but it doesn't prove much, honestly, due to analoguing stats of items to their gold cost and trying to use that as a comparison when that might not be right. Also, the 6000g value of the armor stat is complete speculation.

Take it as you will, My personal feeling is that the Last Whisper and Void Staff are just a little too efficient against tanks.

SaiannaDec 19, 20145 votes

Uhm, Garen has built in perma %armor/mres increase in his W ability. Just saying~~

Anyways, i agree with you. Tanks are nerfed with every patch. Sooner or later they'll extinct.

Lumus AvatarDec 19, 20143 votes

No, that's a good point. Courage passively increases all of Garen's Armor and MR buffs by 20%. He is better off than most tanks.

I believe the calculation would look like this:

71 Natural armor 265 Itemized Armor +20% from courage = 53

Total armor is 389 - kinda ridiculous. I play a lot of garen and I haven't ever seen my armor get that high. I now want to try this build to see if it really works this way.

-35% from LW = 389 - 136 = 253 armor.

This armor reduction is equivalent to my entire thornmail and most of my sunfire cape...

SaiannaDec 19, 20142 votes

And we could also add crits from IE. They deal 2,5x normal damage. So we could say that with every ADC crit your damage reduction from armor is even lower :|

Lumus AvatarDec 19, 20142 votes

No, that's irrelevant. because that is a damage increasing mechanic like armor is a damage reducing mechanic. Armor penetration is a damage reducer reducing mechanic, which on its own, is OK. My problem is the amount of armor you destroy with a single item like Last Whisper.

SaiannaDec 19, 20142 votes

yeah, i agree with you 100% :)

ZanathaxDec 19, 20141 votes

My biggest thing is that there's really no choice. If you're an AP caster, you buy Void Staff. If you're a heavy AD champ - AD caster or ADC - you buy Last Whisper. There's no choice, and in fact you're BAD if you don't buy it by your 3rd item unless you're simply so far ahead there's no point.

The items are too good for too little money. Raise the price by 500 gold, and lower the items pen to 25% and suddenly a tank might actually survive longer than 1 or 2 crits by the ADC end game. Heck, people might actually consider a different item to be worthy of using instead of VS and LW.

Seriously, I hate how squishy tanks and fighters are right now.

Lumus AvatarDec 19, 20143 votes

It sounds like your concern is the same as mine - it's too efficient.

I will, however, state that I have never purchased Last whisper on any of my ADC builds and still won games against tanks. Therefore, I wholeheartedly disagree with the statement that "you're bad if you don't buy it."

ManwadDec 18, 20149 votes

Malzahar is just that kind of champ. He can 100-0 anyone if he gets his combo off due to how his skills have high scaling, high base and percent damage, while he forces you to bath in that pool his

Meep ManDec 18, 20145 votes

Malzahar is made to 100-0 someone. He can usually only do that to one person per fight and has no guarantee of doing it since his ultimate can be interrupted. Also, Malzahar's W can bust tanks extremely efficiently.

SookoDec 18, 20148 votes

Armor is the same. A fed Zed was capable of Death Marking me as Singed, using his BotRK active and auto-ing me once to one-shot me, and I had at least 250 armor thanks to my ult. I had 1500 or a little less HP left, but it was no use, Last Whisper made me as squishy as our Jinx, who was still capable of dealing damage. I never really feel tanky. I feel like the enemy will kill me without any problem unless I am Alistar.

ImHerVoiceDec 19, 20142 votes

or poppy

TheI3igDaddyDec 18, 20145 votes

I understand your frustration, but using Malz is a bad example seeing as he's one of the few mages that has a tankbuster ability. I mean, have you seen how much his W does to tanks lategame?

Looking up the wiki, the max damage it does is 40% of your max health in magic damage +5% for each 100 AP Malz has.

So yeah, his W is going to melt any tank who sits on it for more than a second lategame.

EpicusmaximoDec 18, 20144 votes

If you had that much MR and a QSS, and died to Malzahar, you got outplayed, and bad. Blaming MP because you got outplayed really shows just how bad you are.

SaiannaDec 19, 20143 votes

But you know you can't cleanse from Malzahars (and Warwicks) ultimate?

And yeah, Malz is pretty much anti-tank mage. But doesn't change a fact that melting a tank with single combo is too much.

VerandureDec 19, 20141 votes

The only reason I disagree is the disadvantage Malzahar's ultimate puts him in.

Saying a dps shouldn't be able to 1v1 a tank is as erroneous as the other way around.

SaiannaDec 19, 20142 votes

I do not mind if you kill a tank in few seconds. What i do mind is not giving a tank even chance to fight back.

Malz has acquired such powers thanks to void staff buff (where it applies 1st, then flat mpen)

DryditchDec 20, 20141 votes

There are a bunch of threads about Tanks being useless now.

I wrote up a reply in one of them that I think is applicable here as well. Tank stats just don't feel useful, even though they are.

"As a tank, you don't FEEL useful in a game.

I don't mind getting one-shot if it means my team has gotten away or used that half second to kill the ADC or Assassin. More often than not, though, my death means absolutely nothing for my team. Drop a quick CC on me, it's back up by the time I'm dead and the chase is on again. Burn a combo, stay back for three seconds so the CDs are back up, then kill again.

Damage is too damn high, and the role of a tank (while important) is just not visibly valuable enough. No one gives the tank props, just like no one gives the support props for setting up a play unless it's blatant like thresh hooks or blitz grabs."

SaiannaDec 20, 20142 votes

Yeah i've read this and I agree with you. Shame that in my case my deaths didn't provide my team any advantage. Just like PooF and noone even noticed their tank is dead ;/

DryditchDec 20, 20141 votes

Such is the life of a tank...

Set up a Yasuo combo with a Malph ult? "Great job Yas!"

Malphite "Hey guys... I did stuff too."

Yasuo "Shut up, dweeb. It was all me."

Malphite "Aww... ok."

FadedpfDec 18, 20144 votes

The only real way to make armor and mr really DO ANYTHING against pen items like void and last whisper is to basically double everything. Maybe in banshees veil gave me 100 MR and some good health a fed kat wouldnt be able to to shred tanks like they are butter. Get it? Katarina, Knifes, butter.

AnidanDec 18, 20141 votes

The problem with that is, what then happens when you get someone who scales absurdly well with that? 100 MR and that health? Ryze and Galio approved. It'd be far safer to nerf the penetration than to buff the resistances and get a mega-tank Ryze or something.

auynDec 19, 20142 votes

"Nerf the penetration"...

Velkoz D:

What Is SmiteDec 20, 20141 votes

Riot is unable to nerf Vel'koz even if they nerf pen items because true damage passive is strong as hell and too easy to proc multiple times

auynDec 22, 20141 votes

It was more of a joke about his wording....

SirsirDec 18, 20143 votes

Complaining about Malz bursting tanks down is the same as complaining about Vayne bursting tanks down. The thing that Malz offers that other mages don't is the ability to destroy tanks/raid bosses just as fast as squishies by locking them into his W, which is 40% of max HP, usually 60% at full build (depending on his build, could be more or less). Plus item 3151 which every DoT mage should use. Plus ult and E damage kills just about everything.

Also if you had QSS you shoulda broke outta his ult and interrupted it or ran out of his spells.

Not saying that you don't have a point, but tanks aren't meant to be invincible, they are meant to take lots of damage and either distract or peel.

Lumus AvatarDec 18, 20147 votes

Lately, tanks are having trouble fulfilling this role as adc's and mages are being given more tools, or their tools are being modified, to deal with tanks more efficiently so they can swing focus back on your dps.

Pollyanna WrightDec 18, 20143 votes

% damage reduction is the only way tanks can work in this game.

Everything else is garbage.

SolaxoDec 19, 20143 votes

Uhm Malzahar is MEANT to destroy tanks, his W deals % damage

xXSomeoneElseDec 19, 20143 votes

well from a point of view from a Malzahar main that's actually pretty normal is known as the "Anti-Tank" mage with the insanely large amount of max % damage on his w combined with his dot e both continuously proccing item 3151 and with an ult that suppresses a target and has a more than 1:1 ap ratio its no surprise to me that could 1 shot you with his combo. and a slight observation if I may if you had a qss and were still "1 shotted by malz" you were probably doing something wrong. item 3140 completely and I mean completely counters malz it literally removes everything that malz does to you minus the dmg from the ult and his cds aren't low enough to just put everything back on at that point in using qss you should've been able to merely walk away from malz with no issues at all. as saying malz is not so much as a "bursty mage" but more of a slowly taking your life away while you sit there suppressed kinda mage.

Leblancs BoobDec 19, 20142 votes

To be fair if you actually used your QSS you wouldn't have died

Magma Lux MidDec 19, 20142 votes

Why qss instead of locket or warmogs?

RebonackDec 18, 20141 votes

By far the least disruptive route would be to straight up remove percentile penetration/shred as itemization options and then adjust resist values accordingly.

Because to be clear, if someone doesn't buy Voidstaff or Whisper right now, then any sufficiently tanky target may as well be immortal to them.

CoolKnightSTDec 18, 20143 votes

Or just buff the defensive masteries. If you think about it. How many champions did you actualy see with 21 defense besides mundo.

ZoofDec 19, 20141 votes

Other than malz and the odd mage, it would be near impossible to 100-0 a tank with that much mr in one combo. A syndra who q,w,e,r, even with a DFG, will probably only do 50-75% of your max health. Your specific example is against malz, who ends up dealing around 10% of your max health per second just by standing in his W and that alone is probably the main source of damage that was dealt to you.

SukishooDec 19, 20141 votes

They are clearly exaggerating.

CIamSlamDec 19, 20141 votes

I think it would work well If % armor/mr reducing items came with no damage stats. As of right now, all of the items that penetrate resistances also have very good offensive stats regardless of the penetration. If those could simply be separated into different items, you would force high damage champions to pick between raw damage or itemization against tanks, putting pure tanks back into a state of viability.

ryanstanfieldDec 19, 20141 votes

I completely agree. If you build a lot of armor it takes a while for any adc to kill you. Even when they have the armor pen items. You build a lot of Magic Resist and a bursty ap champ with Magic pen just wipes you away decently quick.