A shout-out to Elise players

Dedrius··31 votes·1,335 views

I just want to say that I feel bad that Riot has allowed Elise to stay in her current state and actually made her worse as of recently. I thought of this after a recent game I had with a teammate playing Elise:

This player was jungling Elise and he really seemed to have a good overall concept of jungling on both a macro level and a good overall understanding on Elise. He set up ganks well, counterjungled at the right times and made good dragon calls. On the other team, they had a Rek Sai jungle who tried some unsuccessful ganks, farmed a bit, and still ended up making more of an impact than our Elise for the sole purpose that the enemy champion is stronger than Elise, which is the case 99% of the time right now in the jungle. It makes you feel bad knowing that anyone picking Elise knows they are fighting an uphill battle and are really only playing her because they enjoy her enough to risk the loss to play her.

Riot help these Elise mains out and give her a chance to at least be viable. Yes she has a very strong kit but Nidalee has a similar kit and is able to be strong so why not Elise?

I don't even own Elise by the way so I have no underlying interest in this champion other than I don't think it is right for a champion to be outclassed in every way and then get nerfed on top of it.

35 Comments

Troy24262112 votes

I believe Elise mains should seek mental help, because they have symptoms of masochism.

Typical Elise main:DrMundo

Dreadlocks2 votes

God bless.

SoMNia2 votes

I'm a Nami main, but Elise is one of my faves. <3 She just...needs help. v.v

A Superb Villain2 votes

She has her problems, but that won't stop me from playing her. It may hurt, but I will continue to hold out on the hope that Riot understands the gravity of their transgression in allowing Elise to suffer for so long and adjust her accordingly.

That, and Blood Moon Elise is drop dead (hah) gorgeous.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zJ1RwDfgcCw/SeJvi0iMOhI/AAAAAAAAADs/wLh80TgHano/s400/_SpiderPrideScreen.jpg

Mimaropa1 votes

The problem for me when I play Elise is that her abilities(even her aa on human form) are a bit clunky and sometimes cancel if I overclicked or enemy is out of range. It's difficult to do a cocoon-spider combo on mid-long range because her q in spiderform is her only gap closer which is supposed to be her execute. Rappel buff is good but using that ability takes a bit of time making enemies escape making it an unreliable gap closer and also using it as an escape during a teamfight is risky because sometimes your team leaves me behind and I can only fall into an enemy turning me into a sitting duck 1v4. She is a high skill champ. Even though I really love playing Elise, she seems too hard for regular player below gold can handle. I saw an Elise main(5 mastery) solo an ekko prenerf(ekko was 2 lvls higher and was dominating). She doesn't need stat buffs just a smooth flow. In this patch, she's still way out of my league

Live2LetDie1 votes

Elise was such bae last season. Her and rammie were my favorite champs but all love must have hardships in the end i guess.

EliseOP1 votes

elise is unplayable lost 8 games in the row now with her (dia) went form 32 30(ähm) last patch to 34 42 gg

Silents4291 votes

I don't think your example is any reasoning for saying she is weak, she isn't in her prime right now but she still functions and can be really strong depending on the teams.

Dedrius5 votes

If any of the top tier junglers played as well as the Elise on my team played they would have carried no problem is what I was saying.

Silents4291 votes

Right, but they are a top tier jungler for a reason, Rek Sai was created to jungle and function as one throughout the game, the comparison between them isn't even fair.

Dedrius4 votes

I guess I am a bit confused on what you mean on that response.

Silents4291 votes

Comparing a higher tier jungler to a lower tier jungler based on who was more useful isn't a fair comparison.

A fair comparison would be someone of similar tier and strengths (playstyle) to Elise who excels better then she does.

Rek Sai is suppose to be more useful, it's the point of being a higher tier, Elise not as much, and I won't deny she needs help, but the comparison isn't very good is all.

Sightless665 votes

This doesn't make much sense. Rek'Sai is designed to be better than Elise, so it's ok that she's better than Elise?

Elise doesn't do anything except jungling. She sucks at every other role. If she sucks at jungling too, then she sucks at everything and is a bad character. It's absolutely fair to compare her to another jungler if all she can do is jungle.

Rak'Sai isn't supposed to just be better than Elise. If they're both junglers, then there are supposed to be advantages and disadvantages to picking one over the other. There aren't right now. If you give me a Rek'Sai and Elise played by equally skilled players, I will want the Rek'Sai every time, for every composition, against every enemy. That's not good.

Silents4291 votes

I am not keen on people putting words in my mouth, I didn't say anything remotely similar to that. Comparing a champion who is literally made to be a top tier jungler to Elise in this case is not a fair example, I am NOT saying Elise is fine, or mentioning her tier as being trash.

Just because a champion can do a role better then yours is not a reason for Elise to get fixed, She needs the fixes, the reasoning for it in this case is however false.

Sightless661 votes

Comparing a champion who is literally made to be a top tier jungler to Elise in this case is not a fair example

Why not? Should Elise not be a top-tier jungler? She's only good at jungling. She should be able to compete with Rek'Sai at jungling. She should be a top-tier jungler again. If she can't be a top-tier jungler and compete with Rek'Sai at jungling, she will suck.

If you think I'm not getting it, you need to explain this more clearly. What you seem to be saying is that Rek'Sai is designed to be better than Elise, so it isn't fair to compare Elise to her because Elise isn't meant to be as good. If that's not what you're saying, you need to either rephrase it or make your definitions very, very clear.

I mean, what you're saying isn't very clear. Let me take a couple of examples.

Comparing a higher tier jungler to a lower tier jungler based on who was more useful isn't a fair comparison.

Rek Sai is suppose to be more useful, it's the point of being a higher tier,

These statements don't make sense. Top-tier is a measure of balance. Rek'Sai could a low-tier jungler if her numbers were worse, and Elise could be a top-tier jungler if her numbers were better. Rek'Sai is higher-tier than Elise because she is stronger. The fact that Rek'Sai is better is why we label her as a higher-tier jungler. Design doesn't factor into it. It doesn't matter that Rek'Sai is designed for the jungle. If Elise is balanced as a jungler, they should be the exact same tier.

And what do you mean by "useful"? When I see that, it says "this champion is better". You might be trying to use it to say "this champion can do a lot of different things", but if so, then you've said it in a pretty unclear way.

I'm not putting words into your mouth. I'm interpreting your words as written, but I'm pretty sure you're trying to say something else.

Just because a champion can do a role better then yours is not a reason for Elise to get fixed

It is if that is the only role the champion preforms. If she's only a jungler, she needs to compete with top-tier junglers. If she can't, she's bad. There is nothing more too it than that. Viability is being able to compete with the top-tier characters in your role. If she can't, she won't be viable. So, the fact that Rek'Sai is higher tier and is always better than Elise in any situation is a great reason for Elise to get fixed. If she's worse than another character at her only role, she needs buffs.

Silents4291 votes

Tiers are done based on how well a champion performs in that role not how there numbers are setup.

Rek Sai has a kit based entirely around being a jungler, Elise doesn't. That is why Rek Sai is a higher tier, Nerf Rek Sai's numbers all you want she still has an AOE knockup, A teleport, Tunnels, Movement speed buffs, her tremor sense for counter jungling, a long range slow etc.

Elise has what? A stun? That's it.

By no means is she deserving of this status, if Riot wants her main role to be a jungle she should do well at this, but just because it's her main and delectably only role doesn't mean she has to be the best at it, she just has to provide something unique to it. As it is currently Elise ISNT balanced around any role, she does best in jungle but mainly because she gets destroyed going against most people in lane, that's the only reason she jungles.

By usefulness based on the OP, Rek Sai demonstrated to do things throughout the game while Elise was unable to do such.

Viability is being able to compete with the top-tier characters in your role.

This simply isn't true, Even the best of junglers can fall off from being viable at times, it's based around team picks always.

Sightless662 votes

Tiers are done based on how well a champion performs in that role not how there numbers are setup.

That's not what most people consider tiers to be. To most people, tiers are solely determined based on a champion's relative strength in the current game. Rek'Sai is stronger than Elise at the role they both share, so she's higher-tier at that role. If she was nerfed, she'd be a lower tier.

"Tier" is not the right word for describing what you're talking about. You're talking about design elements, but tiers is almost always used solely as a description of balance. If someone is the strongest jungler in the highest number of situations, they are the highest-tier jungler. It doesn't matter what makes them a strong jungler. It just matters that they are the best.

I'm not sure if there is a short work that really captures the concept you're trying to talk about, but "tiers" is definitely the wrong word.

Nerf Rek Sai's numbers all you want she still has an AOE knockup, A teleport, Tunnels, Movement speed buffs, her tremor sense for counter jungling, a long range slow etc.

And she could still suck if she was nerfed enough, which would make her a low-tier jungler. Also, Rek'Sai doesn't have a slow. Her ranged Q is just for damage and vision.

Elise has what? A stun? That's it.

Well, that and a gapcloser, good damage, significant sustain, skillshot blocking, etc. However, if all she had was a stun, she's still been the strongest jungler in the game, which also means she was the highest-tier jungler in the game. Numbers made her the best. Then, nerfs to those numbers made her the worst. That is all that tiers are. A measure of the best and worst.

As it is currently Elise ISNT balanced around any role, she does best in jungle but mainly because she gets destroyed going against most people in lane, that's the only reason she jungles.

That means that her only role is the jungle, and if that is her only role, then she needs to be good enough in it to compete. That can be through providing something unique, but even that isn't sufficient alone. Elise doesn't have any way to either match or beat junglers like Rek'Sai, so she isn't viable in that role.

Also, she has been balanced by Riot around the assumption that she is jungling. They've made it very clear that they expect her to be jungling the vast majority of the time and they expected the recent changes to her to make her a good jungler. She is intended to be a jungler now, so she does have to compete with other junglers. We determine how well she is doing by comparing to other junglers. Rek'sai happens to be a very good comparison because she shares a lot of her strategic niche with Elise.

It doesn't have to be the jungle that she's balanced around, but so long as she is primarily a jungler, she has to be able to compete with other junglers.

This simply isn't true, Even the best of junglers can fall off from being viable at times, it's based around team picks always.

Yes, it is true. The state of having at least one situation where other picks don't best you is what viability is. A champion is only viable if they can be useful in some given situation where other champions wouldn't be.

Champions don't fall off from being viable unless the game changes around them. Rek'Sai is one of the best junglers right now, and will continue to be unless she, her counters, or the game around her gets changed. She will be viable unless another champion (or more likely, a lot of other champions) get buffed enough to replace her in any given niche she has. She will continue to be viable up until the point where she doesn't have any niche that can't be matched by other champions. That's where Elise is. She's worse in every situation than other junglers, so she's not viable.

Dedrius3 votes

What you are saying doesn't make much sense. If Riot nerfed all rek'sai's ratios she would be a low tier jungler too. Elise was a top tier jungler in S3 and people said her kit was designed to have everything a jungler needs.

A champion should NOT be that much stronger than the other in the same role, that is a reason for fixes to be made.

Silents4291 votes

No, she wouldn't. She would just build full tank and rely on her CC to be useful. Something Elise can't do.

Dedrius2 votes

Here is what I don't think you realize: Rek could just build full tank and still have a bit of CC so she could be played but she wouldn't be played because there would be better junglers to pick that do the same things Rek does but better.

That is what happened with Elise, She was top tier in S3, then the meta changed and she got some nerfs but she could still do the same thing she always could, just other junglers did it better than she does which is why she is low tier now.

Silents4291 votes

She has CC on par with tanks, and without building damage can deal true damage, meaning she can still leave dents in the enemy.

She is also very mobile, putting her ahead of tanks. The reason Rek Sai works well is because she IS unique and no champion currently does what she does but better.

Dedrius2 votes

That is my point... is that elise is trash tier compared to the strong junglers which is not ok. Its not like Riot makes a jungler saying "ok guys this one is gonna be trash tier and we will make the next one top tier" it just happens based on the champion.

Silents4291 votes

But that isn't true, There is always going to be a stronger Jungler, The entire beginning of this season was evidence of that, Rek Sai shares no similarities to Elise, they aren't alike at all other then sharing a role.

We don't need to say Rek Sai does it better so Elise should be put on par with Rek Sai, We already know, And Riot knows, Elise has seen better days that is why she has more changes coming up.

Dedrius3 votes

Yeah there is always going to be a strong jungler, but that is because some junglers are nerfed and others are left alone making them stronger.

How can you say they have no similarities? Elise and Reksai both have a gapcloser, a form of CC, can be build tanky or damage.

I don't even understand your last point.

Silents4291 votes

No that isn't why we have stronger junglers.

No similarities? Yeah they can be alike if we are vague about it.

Make any champion in the game seem similar.

Dedrius2 votes

Yes that is why we have strong junglers, because they fit the meta and have stronger kits compared to other junglers.

Its not because Riot makes a jungler to be a top tier jungler, which is why Rek sai was a top tier top laner when she was first released as well as a strong jungler. That is also why Lee sin has fallen from the top tier spot after some nerfs.

Silents4291 votes

Lee Sin never got nerfs.

Dedrius2 votes

What? They removed the AS slow on his E and made it so he only gets a shield if he safeguards to an ally or himself instead of wards and minions as well. That is a nerf

Silents4291 votes

Uh these nerfs were from the beginning of Season 4, He was considered top tier the beginning of this season.

Carry1 votes

Thanks, now admit this for the other champions that have garbage winrates within their roles (kassadin, lucian, etc.)

Dedrius1 votes

I think Lucian is weak and needs some small buffs but i think that Kass isn't actually as bad as people say. He is a niche pick of sorts right now but he scales well and has the same strong kit he has had in the past. In the right matchup he actually does well.

stealthfox942 votes

Both have seen LCS play fairly recently. Their win rates are low because they have high skill caps. Same with Elise, even when she was OP her win rate never passed 48%.

Only Play Darius1 votes

I know exactly what you are talking about, I wrote a post about this. Elise is the weakest jungler in the game and by no means meta/viable, the people playing her play her solely because they love her and usually know exactly what they are doing, but aren't allowed to win playing a champion they like, and it depresses me just watching them do their best to make that gimped champion work. As of right now, there is zero reason to pick Elise over the other shapeshifting AP jungler Nidalee (she even costs half the IP).

It is especially sad because Blood Moon Elise is one of the most gorgeous and visually striking skins I have ever seen.

stealthfox941 votes

Maybe I'm just dumb but how in the hell where the recent changes a nerf???

Dedrius1 votes

Honestly I don't play Elise so I am not sure, but I do know that people I know who play her said the healing is barely noticeable and I know her winrate dropped from 43% to 41%

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