@RiotRepertoir, 2 out of 4 Reworked Assassins have been reverted

Wukong Airlines·Apr 23, 2018·55 votes·15,628 views

and have been reverted, and you know what? I LOVE IT. Today I played vs a leblanc on midlane, and I so much enjoyed her bursting my HP bar, the way she tries to outplay me with her positioning and location switching. and actually, it even made me laugh a bit, why? because it's their goddamn job to do that! to burst you down as a squishy and outplay you.

Seeing how a lot of Rengar and leblanc mains actually started having fun playing their champs again is what this game is all about, and to be honest... I envy the fuck outta them.

I never played the new nor will but from what her mains are saying and the community, she's pretty strong and she's become a better assassin after the rework, im not sure if more fun but give me your thoughts?

Now what's left is , and It would be unfair if you didn't give him the same treatment, or at least fix his [W] speed and [E] allowing you to use spells mid-air. OR just mini-rework him again.

134 Comments

Who Fed RuApr 23, 201829 votes

Katarina was the only assassin rework that actually made the champ better

ŚhunpoApr 24, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmhdE8M9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-23T12:40:45.861+0000)

was the only assassin rework that actually made the champ better

The rework made Katarina for viable in exchange for her almost completely losing identity as the Reset Queen as well as her overall fluidity (she's very clunky now) and she became a lot less exciting to play due to delays.

Katarina was certainly made more viable, but after the slew of nerfs she's received she's back to where she was pre rework, a mid tier situational champion. What was the point of reworking her to have a better laning if you're just going to gut her laning? What's the point of reworking her to have more mobility if you're just going to nerf that?

So I have to disagree when you say it made her "better". It made her a lot more viable and selectively fun to play, but it also made her a clunky balance nightmare that can never see the light of day unless Riot wants her to go back to having a 54%+ winrate and a 10%+ pickrate.

As for the braindead argument I can debunk that. Kat's daggers are conceptually easier to understand than Kat's old kit. Anyone could pick up old Kat, but not everyone understood her kit. Sure, it's similar with the current Kat, but when you get 2-4 Shunpo resets it's a whole lot more forgiving than only having one Shunpo to work with. Also she could never braindead 1v5 the enemy team, that's just a myth :3

Note: Katarina main of 8 years btw.

NahuiApr 23, 201829 votes

Well they both failed at their jobs when they were reworked. LeBlanc became a kiting mage, not an assassin. Adding a fixed burst window goes against assassin design. At least Zed's fixed time does not require his actual presence to occur. LeBlanc had to be within casting range the entire time and that was problematic.

Rengar became clunky, which is terrible on an assassin. They're meant to be fluid, quick champions and changing his Q to this awkward, half dash aoe cone just slowed him down immensely. It didn't fix the problem that the rework was meant to address which was him deleting champions instantly when fed because when reworked Rengar got fed, he'd still delete just in a clunkier manner as well as in an aoe so possibly deleting groups.

Katarina's rework was a wild success, as much as I hate to say it. They made her extremely telegraphed but also extremely mobile and having lots of options in most situations. She's no longer an extremely feast or famine champ hard countered by CC. They just have to be sure her numbers are in order.

Talon's W was slowed to give his targets a chance to breathe before they're killed. If you remember old Talon, could charge Q, E, and throw W and ult at the same time and the blades would essentially converge at the same time as your Q-empowered auto hit and the entire kit just came together in one, crazy burst. I'm all for assassins, but that's a bit silly. What Talon needs the most is for Riot to go in to -every- single bit of terrain Summoner's Rift has, by this I mean the walls, and fix any and all bugs that cause's Talon to jump in some stupid manner. I've died/failed to get a kill so many times because I E'd a wall and Talon decided to flip 3 yds to the right or something dumb like that. The W does feel clunky, so it would be nice if they could increase the speed that it comes back. Not necessarily projectile speed but the time it takes to start coming back, even by like .25 seconds. Overall, I think he just needs some animation smoothing and cast time changes, no real rework.

OleandervineApr 23, 201811 votes

In the vein of your Talon vs Terrain comment, this really needs to happen across all champions who utilize terrain like that. I've had similar situations with Bard where I've tried to Magical Journey through a chunk of terrain, only to have the portal open for like 3 feet through some dumb tree that wasn't coded to the part of the rock wall.

QuortApr 23, 20182 votes

As someone that has played Bard a lot, that is such a shameful moment for me. :T

Death by GlamourApr 23, 20185 votes

Rengar didnt fail to kill people when he was reworked

5000000000000000Apr 23, 20183 votes

Rengar was more of satisfaction issue than power issue. In terms of power he became stronger, but his playstyle changed into a diver instead of an assassin.

NahuiApr 25, 20181 votes

He didn't fail to kill anyone, it's that he was clunky while doing it and had the potential to wipe out people in a cluster as well. People don't like clunky, clunky doesn't belong anywhere on an assassin, a major downfall of reworked LB as well.

Wukong AirlinesApr 23, 20182 votes

What killed the new Talon is his new passive, they put all the damage there and they ask you to stack it 3 times, get in range with the enemy and AA, why should an assassin do that to begin with? and to add more salt to the wound they made his [W] so narrow, slow, doesn't slow at first part not to mention he lost 15% damage amplifier on ALL of his damage "used to be passive in his old [E]".

NahuiApr 25, 20182 votes

You're making him sound a lot worse than he is, though. To activate the passive, you merely have to hit W, Q and then auto which can be done quickly. His old passive was god awful and was a meme, like Lissandra's current passive. Even if the new one isn't perfect, it's better than the old one that increased AUTO damage against impaired targets. I've never had a problem activating his passive, and I think it makes for very favorable lane trades.

His E also wasn't a 15% damage amp. That's at level 18. For most of the game, it was 3%.

Hawthorn TreeApr 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well they both failed at their jobs when they were reworked. LeBlanc became a kiting mage, not an assassin. Adding a fixed burst window goes against assassin design. At least Zed's fixed time does not require his actual presence to occur. LeBlanc had to be within casting range the entire time and that was problematic.

Rengar became clunky, which is terrible on an assassin. They're meant to be fluid, quick champions and changing his Q to this awkward, half dash aoe cone just slowed him down immensely. It didn't fix the problem that the rework was meant to address which was him deleting champions instantly when fed because when reworked Rengar got fed, he'd still delete just in a clunkier manner as well as in an aoe so possibly deleting groups.

Katarina's rework was a wild success, as much as I hate to say it. They made her extremely telegraphed but also extremely mobile and having lots of options in most situations. She's no longer an extremely feast or famine champ hard countered by CC. They just have to be sure her numbers are in order.

Talon's W was slowed to give his targets a chance to breathe before they're killed. If you remember old Talon, could charge Q, E, and throw W and ult at the same time and the blades would essentially converge at the same time as your Q-empowered auto hit and the entire kit just came together in one, crazy burst. I'm all for assassins, but that's a bit silly. What Talon needs the most is for Riot to go in to -every- single bit of terrain Summoner's Rift has, by this I mean the walls, and fix any and all bugs that cause's Talon to jump in some stupid manner. I've died/failed to get a kill so many times because I E'd a wall and Talon decided to flip 3 yds to the right or something dumb like that. The W does feel clunky, so it would be nice if they could increase the speed that it comes back. Not necessarily projectile speed but the time it takes to start coming back, even by like .25 seconds. Overall, I think he just needs some animation smoothing and cast time changes, no real rework.

The fact that you would suggest old Talon is faster at killing single targets than the new Talon kinda tells me that you haven't played against a good Talon. What he lost wasn't his fast combo, it's mostly just AoE. Everything else is made up for.

NahuiApr 25, 20181 votes

I've played plenty of new Talon. The burst window was lowered which is factual. Instead of instant blink, it's effectively a dash. The W blades converge slower. The only way one could argue new Talon is quicker or equal in terms of killing speed is that he can Q out of his ult and the ult converges upon the target. Although old E blink's you behind your target so often times it didn't matter, and it slowed so regardless ult would always hit the enemy. I take that back then, the only way one could argue he is faster at killing or equal is if he is able to Q in melee for the bonus damage. Otherwise, he cannot execute his entire combo as quickly. I'm not saying it's a dramatic difference. But the window was extended, even if only slightly.

Hawthorn TreeApr 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I've played plenty of new Talon. The burst window was lowered which is factual. Instead of instant blink, it's effectively a dash. The W blades converge slower. The only way one could argue new Talon is quicker or equal in terms of killing speed is that he can Q out of his ult and the ult converges upon the target. Although old E blink's you behind your target so often times it didn't matter, and it slowed so regardless ult would always hit the enemy. I take that back then, the only way one could argue he is faster at killing or equal is if he is able to Q in melee for the bonus damage. Otherwise, he cannot execute his entire combo as quickly. I'm not saying it's a dramatic difference. But the window was extended, even if only slightly.

New Talon's fastest combo is WQ and then R mid-air. If you are in range to Q when you throw out W, then the combo basically starts when your dash starts, and end when your dash ends. When Talon lands from his Q, he'll automatically try to autoattack hella fast, and so the passive proc happens literally in the blink of an eye. We Talon mains call it the flower combo, and there's no bullshit about waiting for the second W to come back or anything. It is every bit as fast as old Talon's comboing, shorter in terms of engage range and lacking in AoE for sure, but it's still pretty quick.

Infinite SaughtApr 24, 20184 votes

Eh, Katarina still has problems that aren't apparent. Feast-famine is still there because her damage doesn't exactly scale well; if you build any significant amount of Shielding, MR, or HP (Abyssal Mask, Spirit, Maw, Adaptive, Seraph's, Locket etc.) the edge case threshold for her killing you is no longer there, and she can't do much. Void Staff helps alleviate this obviously, but she can't do anything about it if you rush any of the mentioned items. While she isn't countered by Hard CC per se, she's still blown out of the water if she gets displaced; no Daggers, no resets. Late game, she falls off very hard because her Dagger drop speed prevents her from actually killing more than one person at best unless she splits, or if someone locks down the ADC long enough for her to be able to kill anything.

My HeartshakerApr 23, 201824 votes

New Talon is so much better than old talon. I don't know why people keep asking for old talon.

His entire combo revolved around using a point and click teleport to target which had a 99% slow and amplified your damage by 15% -- absolutely no way is this ability healthy for the game at all.

Wukong AirlinesApr 23, 20183 votes

I don't understand why are you judging the overall state of the champ when you don't even play him nor have played 1 game with him in Ranked this entire season.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 23, 20184 votes

i agree with him... and if u need a main words just asks to Yamikaze he say this new talon is hella better than old one.

Madsin25Apr 23, 20183 votes

They changed him from a fun champ that actually took skill and thought to outplay someone in lane to a champion that literally just facestomps the keyboard and hopes he gets kills. The damage talon can dish out in lane now is pretty insane compared to what he used to do.

This is coming from someone who religiously played talon months leading up to his rework.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 23, 20182 votes

Talon took skills you said ??? the only outplay was to dodge ennemy spell wit your E wow such outplay /s.

I played old one, and still play the new version. I really think you're delusionnal about old one.

SqueyApr 24, 20182 votes

Both talons are honestly trash. Old one just flowed better. New one has more tricks. Overall both have massive issues.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 24, 20181 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AA8z8Iyl-talon-should-not-be-revertedslight-update-or-rework-perhapsbut-not-revertedhe-is-not-rengar-or-lb?comment=0006

Madsin25Apr 23, 20184 votes

His damage in lane was a hell of a lot lower pre-rework.

The "99% slow" was .25 seconds long. The damage amp only happened to 1 target and once you went in you couldn't get out compared to now you can escape hoping over the closet wall.

Also the 15% damage amp means nothing when all of that power and more was put on his passive for the rework. So the 15% damage amp didn't even go away and now it's possible to apply it to more than 2 people if you position right.

You can argue new talon is better for the game or whatever bs but the fact of the matter is he has a MUCH higher winrate now than he ever did and he is not even fun to play anymore.

My HeartshakerApr 23, 20183 votes

The "99% slow" was .25 seconds long. The damage amp only happened to 1 target and once you went in you couldn't get out compared to now you can escape hoping over the closet wall.

The main problem is that it was point-and-click teleport to target, the 99% slow just exacerbated what was a terrible ability that had zero counterplay. He could literally zone you off lane just by the threat of that ability alone, and I'm glad it's gone.

You can argue new talon is better for the game or whatever bs but the fact of the matter is he has a MUCH higher winrate now than he ever did and he is not even fun to play anymore.

He has a much higher winrate? Doesn't that just mean he's a pretty good pick now? As for being fun, there are much more people who enjoy the new talon over the old one.

Votable JesterApr 23, 20183 votes

My only issue with the new Talon is he's even more susceptible to cc than other assassins. Even just a slow will stop him from escaping because he doesn't have any blinks or free dashes (his jump over walls is slowed too), and if they are able to stop him early on, he has no hope of escape because he probably just put the nearest wall on cooldown.

Maybe I don't play him right, but his lategame feels much much worse than before.

jocomotionApr 23, 201822 votes

1/4. Leblanc Rengar kept his new empowered W and new W healing, he kept his new passive “hunting each champion” interaction, he still has 4 stacks instead of five, his stacks still fall off when out of combat unlike before, and his Ult still has eyes on whoever he’s closest to unlike before. All that’s been reverted is the Q and some ultimate numbers. So don’t go sayin he’s been completely reverted.

SleepcomaApr 23, 20182 votes

ok... and thats because the changes riot kept was for healthy gameplay

jocomotionApr 23, 20183 votes

I know and agree. The point was people shouldn’t claim he’s been “reverted” when only 1/5th of his kit was actually changed back.

Edit: Also people tend to bag on riot for his rework/revert with his Q when I think they did a good job implementing at least some counterplay on a champion with free, ranged, point-and-click gapclosers.

0 HogapuApr 23, 201818 votes

As a Katarina main, the new one is way better than the old one. She's almost equally funny to play and way more rewarding. The skill ceiling is super huge, which is great for a champion "pretty easily" counterable. + old kat was binary to play as and against, while this one can do more damage when behind, but can also deal less than before if ahead and that is a great point.

Sire HippingtonApr 23, 20188 votes

I really hope they revert Fizz, he's just like LB and Rengar, he's not exactly weak, but way less enjoyable to fun and not any better to play against than befor rework.

On Kata, i think she has they same issues if not more for playing against, and playing as depends on the player. I personally prefer the old one by far, but i totally understand how others may like the new better.

Talon is difficult. I think the new certainly has potential and is quite fun, but he's very different from the old one. Old talon was THE teamfighting assasin, he had lots of aoe, some utillity with the rather reliable ranged aoe slow, and the most reliable gapclose+burst. Now, he's THE worst teamfighting assasin by far, not to great aoe, poor range on a very telegraphed gapcloser, delayed burst, his W is a joke compared to the old.. However, as early snowball+roaming assasins, new talon is quite awsome.

TyroneWatermelonApr 23, 20188 votes

getting 100-0 by leblanc pressing 2 buttons isn't fun nor skillful at all. that's why she was reworked in the first place.

Automated RivenApr 24, 20182 votes

Which two buttons?

Michael SykesApr 24, 20181 votes

probably an unrealistically fed one can do that. Very unlikely to happen since the revert is a bit different from pre-revert LeBlanc

Automated RivenApr 24, 20181 votes

If your on par in levels it's 100% impossible. Q-RQ doesn't have enough damage.

Michael SykesApr 25, 20181 votes

Well, it is possible if you are like three or four levels ahead, have two more items and do q+r+auto which procs Thunderlords (yes I know it changed its name but I guess it's clear)

Automated RivenApr 25, 20181 votes

Maybe. Unlikely tho unless you do something strange like RQ E ir some shit.

GhaelWindsApr 23, 20183 votes

Personally I just want Fizz reverted. He used to be so much more fun.

T4underboltApr 23, 20183 votes

Rengar revert is a mistake and can't be called a revert. They just kept what was the best out of new rengar (free qss, movement speed bonus DMG on ultimate leap and armor pen) and reverted the most broken no counterplay sht which is his Q. Leblanc seems to be decently balanced on the other hand. They could reduce her DMG like it is now before reworking her and it would be fine.

MohawkBirdApr 23, 20182 votes

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T4underboltApr 23, 20181 votes

His other abilities does nothing in his assassination outside of giving him stacks to use empowered q.

MohawkBirdApr 23, 20181 votes

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T4underboltApr 25, 20181 votes

Not really because they lowered the detection radius from like 3000 to 1600. And his leap is like 700 range. And due to his movement speed on ultimate and probably youmu and out of combat ms he is going to jump on me before I get to respond. Additionally I'm curious why rengar is allowed to oneshot people in 0.01 sec and so easily-its basically auto attack kill. Meanwhile talon needs to hit abilities and use auto attack to proceed passive his highest source of DMG. People are so often able to flash that auto. Plus hit abilities still don't deal even half the DMG rengar does with his Q and empowered q that is an auto. I wonder why some assassins are allowed for so easy assassination and some others needs to be in a gutter and useless. Rengar and khazix are the only assassins able to somehow kill ADC without him getting saved fast enough with shields from support. Which is a good thing. Thanks God something counters shields a bit. But it is still uneahlthy and wither make all assassins like that or better make them all in line and nerf shielding.

SleepcomaApr 23, 20181 votes

you don't even play the game so why are you talking, anyways theres more counterplay to the Q now with ninja tabis

T4underboltApr 23, 20181 votes

I do play the game. Lol. More counterplay. Tell that to people with ninja rabid and additional armor item e.g. ezreal with icebron that got oneshoted by rengar in 0.1 sec. With rengar not even having huge item advantage

SleepcomaApr 24, 20181 votes

If rengar is doing that to an ezreal hes gotta be at least 3 or 4 levels up and the ezreal player has to mess up really hard or rengar has an immense amount of kills. Otherwise it never happens.

FlameadoDeKoorvoApr 23, 20182 votes

Well they have a huge work to do with champs like LB (again).

Last match I faced against one terrible LB player who was 30 cs behind me (swain) and even in that situation if I get one of her combo I was forced to brb. Ridiculous when we compare my trade combo...

Obviusly I know swain TF outperforms LB TF, but I cant reach a good TF potential if I'm totally zonned by the risk of feed a LB in lane...

Toxic lane playstyle again