The first step to fixing Veigar properly

Kanzaki Ranko·Aug 22, 2015·19 votes·2,452 views

Rework his ult.

Mana cost increased to 150/150/150 Cooldown increased to 120/110/90 AP ratio increased to 1.5 ENEMY ap ratio removed. (no changes to base damage)

Now Veigar is more reliable all around, still has the weaknesses of an immobile mage that dies instantly when jumped on, stun has counterplay, ect. It fits thematically too. Veigar wants everyone to fear him, not just a select few that build AP.

Many Veigar mains and I would prefer more reliability over some gimmicky 300 bonus damage on his ult. Plus it'd get rid of that "get stomped in lane but still oneshot a champ because they have ability power" mechanic he has.

31 Comments

jjookkeerrAug 22, 201512 votes

no, no and fucking no. there is no need on nerfing his cd and manacost

NecrosideAug 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

no, no and fucking no. there is no need on nerfing his cd and manacost

Veigar gets infinite AP from his Q... his ult needs an offset if they want to buff it hard.

Besides +25 mana is barely a thing on ANY champion, specially one that has an a small chalice passive and builds Athenes anyways.

jjookkeerrAug 22, 20154 votes

no, it dont need any offset. the cd is already pretty high

NecrosideAug 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

no, it dont need any offset. the cd is already pretty high

So i'm assuming you dont even go max cdr on veigar? it's kinda essential to go max cdr on him as a late game champ and his ult CD is actually fairly short lol. You clearly don't understand what your talking about.

jjookkeerrAug 22, 20152 votes

i main veigar since season 1 and i'm sure that i know way more than you about him

NecrosideOct 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

i main veigar since season 1 and i'm sure that i know way more than you about him

I've mained Veigar since S3 and gotten close to DaBox's position so you may have more games on veigar than me (maybe but unlikely because 90% of my games since S3 were Veigar only) But when it comes to skill level wise and ranking i'm way superior than you and thats a fact :)

ArkenStormAug 23, 20151 votes

who builds athene's anymore ANYWAY? nobody who knows builds athene's on Veigar anymore.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 23, 20151 votes

If the enemy doesn't have any sustenance whores on their team I grab athene's over morellos. The infinite mana is nice, but the MR is what makes it worthwhile. Veigar only needs 4 hard AP items to be able to kill people, then he can focuson hard tank items to give him some semblance of reliability in team fights.

ArkenStormAug 23, 20151 votes

I find that only morellos and seraphs is needed for enough mana, and 9/10 games they have a sustenance whore aka vayne, or some other stupid person like that, aka devourer junglers.

NecrosideOct 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

who builds athene's anymore ANYWAY? nobody who knows builds athene's on Veigar anymore.

Guess you were wrong, as expected ;)

A Superb VillainAug 23, 20155 votes

Tweaking his ult is not going to fix Veigar, and in all honesty I do not think his ult is the problem. Veigar's primary issue following his "compensation" is a lack of reliability. Whereas before any reasonably competent Veigar could stun a target of his choice with a well-placed Event Horizon, now it relies on crowd-control from a teammate, enemy mistakes, or precognition to land. Coupling that with Dark Matter being extremely difficult to land without any form of crowd-control, and The Tiny Master of Evil essentially has half his kit available to him at any given time.

Veigar has no significant aoe damage. His Baleful Strike can hit two targets at most, his Dark Matter has a very small area of effectiveness, and Primordial Burst can only strike one target. So why is it that a champion who can only efficiently damage one enemy at a time has less reliability than other mages?

Here is Veigar's problem in a brief example:

Veigar traps an enemy in his Event Horizon. He can either drop Dark Matter on their heads and hope it lands, which it likely will not, toss a Baleful Strike and hope it connects, or walk away to try again later.
Vegiar stuns an enemy and can drop his full combo. If they are at full health, they may survive. If not, Veigar has successfully made a kill.

You either land your stun or you don't. That is not fun. How sad is it that even when you do trap an enemy in Event Horizon it amounts to nothing? They can still dodge skillshots, they can still shoot back.

Event Horizon or Dark Matter need to be changed in some capacity. As they are, these two abilities do nothing to enhance Veigar's gameplay.

Let's make evil matter. https://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfkb0gm4A51qcq2vho1_500.gif

SpecterVonBarenAug 23, 20153 votes

If you get rid of the enemy AP ratio then it becomes nothing more than a generic damage spell. Having the enemy AP ratio makes it so there's some sort of nuance to using his ult, do you just use it on whoever because they are low enough that it will kill them? Or do you save it for the enemy that has AP so you can get more damage dealt to the enemy team?

I'm not apposed to removing the enemy AP scaling, but in turn they need to give it something else that would make it more than just a single target nuke spell.

CicoteAug 22, 20152 votes

yup and something that doesn't make him rely on his opponent's mistakes

NullDragonAug 23, 20152 votes

I think, honestly, Veigar needs a rework in general.

Event Horizon and W just seems awkward for his playstyle in general. Event Horizon doesn't satisfy "trapping and toying with your opponent", and especially not in a healthy way which enables his burst most of the time.

LeprechaunJinxAug 23, 20151 votes

I'd be nervous about a Veigar rework personally since I love him as a character and his playstyle has that sense of danger from being so glass cannon that makes me feel better about my burst while my opponents can still kill me with poor positioning. In reality though, I think a rework could potentially be good for the master of evil since as you said his Event Horizon doesn't satisfy the feeling of entrapment and the delay on W relies so much on either the stun or your opponents to not see the indicator.

The idea of losing the current enemy AP scaling for raw damage is something I can't decide if I like or would rather keep since it's a very interesting and unique mechanic while fulfilling a certain underdog fantasy but limits his potential targets and doesn't properly convey how much damage it will do until after it hits. Raw AP is less interesting but overall more healthy as the enemy team knows how much damage it will do at most stages and is not punished for building as they normally would.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 23, 20151 votes

He did get a rework, the only issue is it was grossly incomplete and was launched prematurely to get botlane Veigar out of sight. I'd say it was a 30% complete side project before support Veigar became a threat bot lane and they just rushed it without care of consequence. Now the one rioter who was working on it is probably being forced onto some other project like giving % max health true damage to some other champion who doesn't really need changes.

TotalJerkAug 23, 20152 votes

Higher cooldown

More reliable

CrettAug 22, 20151 votes

And the rest of his kit. His E isn't the problem, it's the rest of his kit's over-reliance on E.

Curling VeigarAug 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And the rest of his kit. His E isn't the problem, it's the rest of his kit's over-reliance on E.

The rest of his kit feels fine to me. It's his ult that's the problem. It just feels like a 4th ability with a really long cooldown.

Ult anything without AP and you'll understand me.

PiRoScOuTAug 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qm5a7vaM,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-22T22:29:57.920+0000)

The rest of his kit feels fine to me. It's his ult that's the problem. It just feels like a 4th ability with a really long cooldown.

Ult anything without AP and you'll understand me.

His ult has the same ap ratio as his w, which doesn't make sense. His w is also and aoe ability, as long as you land stun, his w is better.

HiadneAug 22, 20151 votes

Bump

MistaMacAug 22, 20151 votes

I would rework his ultimate - just throw away this ability in the void and put completly diffrent spell. This is god damn single target point n'click nuke! I don't wanna see when this ability is going to work well.

LeprechaunJinxAug 23, 20151 votes

I hate single target point and click as much as you but I also understand why Veigar has it in that he is the quintessential glass cannon burst champion. It's power is in its reliability in an otherwise entirely risky champion and kit due to his reliance on his stun which needs to be ranked up to get the full duration on top of that. Otherwise I hate most forms of point and click large damage sources. Champions like old Ryze infuriated me to no end since there was no avoiding his damage besides being outside his range, and same for others like Annie or even Pantheon's point and click poke.

NarasimhaAug 23, 20151 votes

You may as well rename and rekit him then, because its not Veigar. It's just another burst mage.

ArkenStormAug 23, 20151 votes

Absolutely not. Buff the ratio, REDUCE the mana cost to 100 for standardization, leave the CD alone.

ramdom206Aug 23, 20151 votes

i love me my veigar, but I fell this would be unnecessary. when you are ahead, you still one shot the adc with ult. also the AP scaling on his ult gives a reliable pick against a large ap team. all because it is easy to get more than 1000 ap in a game with a q that has a 5 sec cooldown( and that's without any cool down.)

Overall, this would change our tiny master of evil into a anti mage, to a carry killer via r. and that would be to nice for him to have( though your change would be interesting)

NewMkAug 23, 20151 votes

How did this bs reach 18 upvotes?

lB2kGRlc8yAug 23, 20151 votes

The first step to fixing Veigar is Riot realizing that they fucked him up. They danced around his incohesive kit by just buffing his Q until his winrate came back up. Every person who actually mained old Veigar knows he's 100% reliant on punishing enemy fuckups, and can't make plays of his own for that reason.

RozzetaAug 23, 20151 votes

The first step of fixing Veigar's problems is for Riot to admit Veigar has problems, and that preoblem is currently called W, not R.

IonianAug 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blown the fk up,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qm5a7vaM,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-08-22T22:08:29.656+0000)

AP ratio increased to 1.5

HOLY

SirPacifistaAug 23, 20151 votes

His R isnt a problem for him, its only the E (Cage), which hinders him from making reliable plays. (and maybe the lack of harass he can do since q gets blocked by creeps, unlike the old one (which means that you can harass the enemy only with your W if he is behind 2 minions)