Am I the only one who thinks Muramana is in a terrible state right now?

xxxMadLionxxx·Aug 4, 2017·78 votes·4,458 views

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of users simply don't build the items anymore. With both the Urgot and Yorick rework, the item is built even less. I've seen Jayce building lethality or instead.

The only champ I think build this is and he is better off with for the cdr and mana.

Building this item first puts your early game at a serious disadvantage while the rewards are not that great. The item takes forever to stack. Sometime 25 mins when the game is ending in 25-40 minutes.

I feel riot needs to look at this item or at least explain their current thoughts about it.

90 Comments

EedatAug 4, 201735 votes

item 3070 in general is in a shitty spot. item 3003 is being completely outclassed by item 3027 right now too

PresidentPeeweeAug 4, 20179 votes

I actually thought archangels was great and it can give me 180 AP 1000 mana and a huge shield mid-lategame

YumaS2AstralAug 4, 201716 votes

The problem is the early game. You sacrifice too much for it. And the meta is very early game centric right now. There is a reason to why Karthus is going RoA instead of directly going Tear, even though he is supposed to be a late game champion.

Iźuku MidoriyaAug 4, 20172 votes

It just takes so long to stack

DarkwindAug 4, 20172 votes

That's not actually a problem with Archangel's, though. Sure, you won't get the shield until it's finished, and you won't 'cap' your AP til then either. But it is actually gold efficient on completion for most champions. Assuming you have around ~700 mana (base or from not-AA) when you get it, which is very likely, you only need ~23 charges to be gold efficient. And it only goes up from there.

SpecterVonBarenAug 5, 20171 votes

On completion is the problem. You don't gain anything from it but mana and a mana refund until you finish the item so you're behind in damage while the enemy is free to buy combat stats that will let them close out the early game ahead.

Funkin DunkinAug 4, 20173 votes

I only spend the 750 for item 3070 on Blitzcrank then build my 5 necessary items then if the game goes that long finish that item. There's nothing quite like having a free 1k shield from only 750 lol.

PunisherJBYAug 4, 20173 votes

Only time i build item 3070 is on Veigar because i can still scale my ap from spamming q to farm or his other abilities. And even then it doesn't always go well.

SancreAug 4, 20175 votes

Why not both? Ryze

TurquoiseYoshiAug 5, 20173 votes

I was gonna say this as well, a good few champs build Tear and then a RoA for maximum laning sustain.

Dani El PezgloboAug 4, 201727 votes

item 3056 this is trash muramana is build on a few champs

Dr PoroAug 4, 20177 votes

That moment when it takes a few seconds for you to realize what item that actually is...

FloupiAug 4, 201723 votes

[deleted]

LankPantsAug 5, 20173 votes

It was core on him when Triforce gave crit. He could go Tri>ER and get the full 30% CDR from ER.

SanKakUAug 5, 20172 votes

[deleted]

rtbf221651412Aug 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Um, critical strike Ezreal(and that's the one of 2 critical strike items you always buy, other is depending on game) is the only way I could get S on him outside of URF.

If people are not used to it nor used to actual hardcore play of Ezreal (exploiting his strengths and etc), of course you will. However, that doesn't mean he is optimally better with it. It's a fact that he is optimally better with Manamune.

My Waifu VanillaAug 5, 20171 votes

It's also a fact Ezreal isn't optimal in any situation currently since he is rocking that clean 45% winrate. There is literally no reason to pick Ezreal over any other ADC in the game because they all do SOMETHING before 18 minutes and something AFTER 23 minutes which is the only time Ezreal is really relevant (completion of Muramana being around 18 minutes) since he falls off like a brick after Muramana power spike since he doesn't scale nearly as hard as a crit based ADC while also not spiking as early as someone like Jhin with his lethality build.

rtbf221651412Aug 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QiXGTAww,comment-id=000d000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-05T13:14:52.371+0000)

It's also a fact Ezreal isn't optimal in any situation currently

Wrong. Just because he is bad or noobs are playing him doesn't mean he doesn't have a more optimal item build.

HueboneAug 5, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Squishy Support,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QiXGTAww,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-08-04T18:57:37.357+0000)

Wtf no one ever built

There was a moment at the beginning of season 6 where Crit Ez was meta.

PePsiLemoNNAug 4, 201718 votes

and he is better off with for the cdr and mana.

What CDR? What mana? Unless you go crit ez...

The item takes forever to stack. Sometime 25 mins when the game is ending in 25-40 minutes.

Ayyy a late-game intended item takes 25 mins to stack . Surprise surprise

LoliKnightAug 5, 20172 votes

Late game item that actually doesn't scale as well into the late game as you'd expect. Don't get me wrong, I dont think ER is better, but Muramana doesnt give as many returns as you'd expect it to . It's stronger the faster you stack it and then falls off for every minute you take over the 22 min mark to stack it fully. I know obvious statement is obvious, but Rito wants crit to be the only thing to truly scale into the late game. The effectiveness of a crit build never falls off, regardless of when you buy the items as they all sync with each other beautifully. Now the more you use muramana the less damage it deals. Doesnt seem like a consistent DPS choice if you ask me.

Sire HippingtonAug 6, 20171 votes

Ayyy a late-game intended item takes 25 mins to stack . Surprise surprise

Just that manamune/muramana scales rather bad into late, you get ~70-80ad max and the passive effect isn't that strong either as your mana and with that it's damage drains quite fast. Manamune has a decent powerspike in the midgame right when you get max stacks, but it sucks early while also scaleing rather bad into late.

The crit+cdr from ER scales much better into late while also beeing stronger early. There is a reason why Ez is the only champ that goes manamune, and even he went ER back when trinity had crit.

rtbf221651412Aug 4, 201711 votes

Ez doesn't really build crits last time I checked. His Q does not apply crits (with little exceptions) and his Q is used to reset cool downs. Ez with item 3508 is a terrible idea. You would also need to build another crit item to have 30% CDR from it's passive. Also his Q procs his attack speed passive. Essence Reaver also provides NO base mana. Only regen on critical strike basic attacks.

Note from wikia: "Essence Reaver will not restore mana if Shiv Lightning critically strikes with Mystic Shot since its mana-restoring passive strictly applies to basic attacks."

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ezreal

The Yetii RiderAug 4, 20179 votes

The item itself isn't in a bad spot. It's just that Riot themselves have been moving further and further away from restricting Attack Damage champions by their mana costs.

These days, most Attack Damage champions can get away with multiple spell rotations through their base mana pool, or they simply don't use mana at all. Mana has been bound to the AP stat instead, and because of this, more and more AD champions find themselves in less and less need of mana or mana regeneration.

NebuulAug 5, 20176 votes

What's funny is on-hit effects are 33% effective on Urgot's W. But I bet Muramana proc still takes full mana.

HäxelAug 5, 20172 votes

tear would stack with new urgot fast. but muramana would drain with his w his mana rly fast.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERAug 4, 20175 votes

Simply takes too long to stack compared to other champions rushing better items to have a better power spike.

VallalanAug 5, 20175 votes

first off, ezreal should still build this over reaver. ezreal without tear is basically useless because you cant spam and an ezreal who can't spam doesn't do much.

but that said, manamune has always felt underwhelming because of how SLOW it stacks.

if it stacked relatively quickly. like as fast as archangels it would be viable on so many other people besides Ezreal, but instead its just ezreal now. even varus and jayce don't build it. that's how bad the item is.

i think stat wise the item is fine. the item is relatively cheap for giving 1000 mana and 60-65 ad fully stacked. the passive upon completion is also VERY strong.

it just stacks way too slow to be considered. to the point where its mandatory on ezreal to spam spells when u walk around the map and to lane. like if u dont you stack too slow even on ezreal who spams constantly.

this would also be an indirect buff to ezreal if you make it stack faster which would help him out a lot. he needs the love.

YumaS2AstralAug 5, 20173 votes

The only reason why it is mandatory on Ezreal is because he can neither go crit (his Q can't crit) nor he can go lethality (3/4 of his kit is magic damage). Going Tear is his only viable build path. If he had other viable builds he would be yet another champion to sacrifice Tear because this item just kills your early game.

VallalanAug 5, 20171 votes

yeah man try going without tear on ezreal and tell me how long you can stay out on the map for. you go oom in a team fight instantly and you can't E more than a few times due to the very high mana cost which is a big reason why you pick ezreal.

tear is mandatory for a slew of reasons not just that the onhit aspect of muramana is amazing on him.

SpecterVonBarenAug 5, 20171 votes

That's what he said?.....

Trias000Aug 5, 20175 votes

{quoted}

The only champ I think build this is and he is better off with for the cdr and mana.

I'm not sure about that since his Q can't crit.

JESUSSAYSNOAug 4, 20174 votes

Its just a dated design. odds are it gets removed in the next year. Games are too short, and there's not enough ad champs that need raw mana that cant just build reaver.

Chembaron YamadaAug 4, 20177 votes

I hope they don't remove it completely, but rework it instead.... item 3042 I actually really like that icon (Manamune not so much, though...) and the names Manamune and Muramana are great with the reference to Masamune and Muramasa.

Shadow HazardAug 4, 20174 votes

Part of the issue is that literally every champ that used to use it have been reworked (urgot, yorick) so that they don't need it, or they got unnecessarily buffed (jayce) so that they don't need it, or itemization has made it possible to not really look at it as viable anymore even if there is strong kit synergy with the tear line in general (singed, swain).

Sire HippingtonAug 4, 20174 votes

I think it never was in a good state to beginn with. Asides from tear stacking beeing horrible in the earlygame ficused state of the game since S6, the passive effect from muramana simply contradicts the purpose of manamune. If i go for manamune, i want to solve mana issues, and i want to do that so i stay powerfull in extendet fights rather than running oom. The muramana effect drains mana like nothing and even looses out on damage the more mana you miss, so it becomes worse and worse as the fight goes on, which is exactly what you want to prevent when you invest into mana. Aditionally, the way it works it only is usefull for a few champs, as it needs spamable singletarget damage, while most casters that would want the mana have aoe-spells. On top of that, the stats are not very great(very gold efficent though), so if you can't make good use of the passive, it's a shit item. This prettymuch leaves EZ as the only remaining user... Imo the passive needs to be changed into something that is less mana draining and stays rather effective even in longer fights, and mostly it should not be tied to spaming singletarget damage. Aditionally, i think it'S costs and stats should be similar to item 3003 , as right now the tear stacking prevents it from beeing good early, the low costs and acordingly low stats make it not very slot efficient lategame, so it only has a small window in the midgame where it's strong. If more expensive but giving more stats, it would atleast be a good scaleing item.

morris1Aug 5, 20173 votes

item 3042 list.

~~Malzahar~~ - reworked
~~Yorick~~ - reworked
~~Urgot~~ - reworked
~~Ryze~~ - reworked (can still use it tho)

Honorable mentions.

~~Jayce~~ - tear in 2k17 lul
~~Varus~~ - tear in 2k17 lul

~~Is Manamune good on Cassiopeia?~~

Worrying trend if you ask me.

CasterGilgameshAug 4, 20172 votes

im pretty sure Lucian would love muramana but never tested it since i dont feel like arguing with meta slaves in normal games

DarkRitualAug 4, 20172 votes

You basically forfeit your early game bullying if you rush it. Essence Reaver is just better for him in general.

Its All SkillzzAug 4, 20172 votes

Problem lies in how weak tear is, in the current meta there is no time to scale no time to really farm up a archangels or muramana. by the time you get it stacked your team is rpob lost 2 inhibs and all barons/dragons. rushing tear just makes you super weak in lane and its one of the reasons i hate playing ad ez and pref to play like ap ez bot lane where i rush gunblade then 1 shot the enemy adc everytime he returns to lane. also the item used to give like 1 mana per 5 or something towards it stack even when you wasnt casting spells i dunno why that was removed as it now takes even when im super fed around 23+ mins to fully stack a tear.

DoozkuAug 5, 20172 votes

Clearly you've never seen item 3004 on Ryze

#THAT'S THE REAL SHIT RIGHT THERE

xxxMadLionxxxAug 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Clearly you've never seen on

#THAT'S THE REAL SHIT RIGHT THERE

No. not anymore. The current Ryze can't abuse muramana like before.

DoozkuAug 5, 20172 votes

That's where you're wrong.

https://youtu.be/zhZOKitSuZ8

https://youtu.be/f1oJG4ODb-s

This guy is a Diamond Ryze main whose been having lingering winrates with Ryze for the longest time, until he discovered the Double Tear Muramana build. He's been climbing while almost exclusively building Muramana on Ryze. The logic on it is quite sound actually.

For every spell cast, Muramana ends up adding an insane amout of damage. I don't remember the exact amount of damage but I think it was about 100-250 damage per spell cast which is a ridiculous amount of damage. Getting Muramana is a massive spike in damage for Ryze especially when compared to AA. The downside is that Manamune is garbage on Ryze and you lose the shield on Seraph's until you can stack AA.

Jayce TopAug 5, 20172 votes

I never see Jayce players build item 3508 , if they do, they must be low elo or just trying something new. Because that build is how you lose as Jayce.

GrReaper96Aug 5, 20172 votes

Remember when Jayce needed mana to actually do much in laning phase? Pepperidge farm remembers

LordGeovanniAug 5, 20172 votes

muramana has actually never been underpowered but also not overpowered unless you have range to abuse it but it doesnt spike hard like other items and people dont seem to see the growing power from purchaseing it early valueing hard spikes far more. it just doesnt go well with any other item except itself in ap form (which only hybrids can make use of but most hybrids are attack speed based except Urgot who was the only champion i could build both on and do well but oh well rework a character with nothing wrong with him but he wasnt popular.) and item 3508 before it was reworked into a crit item for not being picked up on adcs though fighters were doing well with it and its still not being picked up on adcs.

Espy PsycheAug 5, 20172 votes

The only way that the Tear of the Goddess and items that build from it is if it works Heroes of the Storm style. Essentially, that would be:

Tear of the Goddess -- 750g (250g combine cost)

+250 Mana Unique Passive -- Awe: Refunds 15% of mana spent. Unique Passive -- Mana Charge: Grants +4 maximum mana on spell cast or Mana expenditure (up to twice per 8 seconds).

Archangel's Staff -- 3100g (1100g combine cost) +80 Ability Power +250 Mana Unique Passive -- Awe: Refunds 25% of mana spent. Increases Ability Power by 3% of maximum mana. Unique Passive -- Mana Charge: Grants +8 maximum mana on spell cast or Mana expenditure (up to 2x per 8 seconds).

When Mana Charge has created +750 mana, transform into Seraph's Embrace.

Seraph's Embrace +80 Ability Power +250 Mana Unique Passive -- Awe: Refunds 25% of mana spent. Increases Ability Power by 3% of maximum mana. Unique Passive -- Mana Charge: Grants +4 maximum mana on spell cast or Mana expenditure (up to 2x per 8 seconds). Unique Active -- Mana Shield: Consumes 20% of current mana to generate a shield for 150 + 20% of current mana.

Manamune -- +25 Attack Damage +250 Mana Unique Passive -- Awe: Refunds 15% of mana spent. Increases Attack Damage by 2% of maximum mana. Unique Passive -- Mana Charge: Grants +4 maximum mana on basic attack, spell cast, or Mana expenditure (up to 2x per 8 seconds).

When Mana Charge has created +750 mana, transform into Muramana.

Muramana +25 Attack Damage +250 Mana Unique Passive -- Awe: Refunds 15% of mana spent. Increases Attack Damage by 2% of maximum mana. Unique Passive -- Mana Charge: Grants +4 maximum mana on basic attack, spell cast, or Mana expenditure (up to 2x per 8 seconds). Unique Passive -- Shock: Single target spells and attacks (on hit) on Champions consume 3% of maximum mana to deal bonus physical damage equal to twice the mana consumed. Only active while you are at 20% maximum mana or higher.

What did I do? I put the Mana Charge passive onto Seraph's and Muramana.

Why is this so powerful? Now you are infinite.

The difference is, now it's a soft cap. You gain the bonuses of current Seraph's (the shield) and Muramana (the on-hit) -- but your mana doesn't quit scaling. The scaling slows back down because the soft cap items lose their doubled potential usage bonus, but it doesn't stop. Buyers continue to gain maximum mana throughout the game even after hitting the Seraph's/Muramana break point -- which in turn scales the Awe passives to deal more and more damage the longer the game goes. Just like Nasus, Sion, Cho'Gath, Bard, and Veigar's scalings, these items are infinite.

Ezreal will come back into the meta. Spell spamming marksmen who didn't build Muramana before will start (Lucian, Corki). Jayce will build it again so he can scale into the late game.

And yes, they need it to cut through all the big tanks that are popular right now with Stoneplate.

junglerboy16Aug 5, 20171 votes

The damage it offers is unnoticeable and far too subtle of an advantage to really appreciate. The stats are lackluster, and unlike Seraph's which at least stacks faster when fully built, Manamune/Muramana just stacks with lower mana costs.

I'd like to see it receive a big active like Seraph's, (maybe damage, maybe something else) and boost the stats and stack passive in exchange for the mediocre damage boost it provides.

jama655Aug 5, 20171 votes

Those damn reworks