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General theme of 6.9 so far seems to be "F*ck Mana Regeneration"

MrWasjig·Apr 20, 2016·11 votes·894 views

Archangel's Staff

Base mana regen removed

Athene's Unholy Grail

Base Mana Regen lowered to +75% from +100%

Catalyst of Aeons

Removed UNIQUE Passive - Valor's Reward. New UNIQUE Passive - Eternity: 15% of damage taken from champions is gained as mana. Spending mana Restores 20% of the cost as Health, up to 15 per spell cast. (This one is particularly stupid. "Hey let's force a squishy class to take damage just to continue operating)

Frostfang

Base mana regen lowered to 75% from 100%

Frost Queen's Claim

Base mana regen lowered to 75% from 100% (Just typical these two are being nerfed AGAIN!)

Manamune

Removed +25% Base Mana Regen

Morellonomicon *Removed +100% Base Mana Regen New UNIQUE Passive: Kills and Assists restore 20% of your maximum Mana (At least they moved this over to Morello's)

So yeah RIP Mana Regen. Yes I've omitted a lot of changes but if you ask me items that have had mana regen replaced with gimmicky mana restore passives are all stupid. Especially the "Take damage, get mana back", when the health you restore from spellcasts is so pitiful (assuming I'm reading that right) Again this is supposed to be on Mages, a class that is predominantly squishy, this change seems totally backwards.

Apparently flat mana is enough for Mages to continue operating properly. I beg to differ.

And don't even get me started on the atrocity that is the Zhonya's Hourglass and QSS nerfs. I suppose next patch I won't bother playing an AP Midlaner beyond the initial trial run of the reworked ones. Guess this is as good a time as any to learn to play an AD midlaner since it's been so clear for a while now that Riot favors them.

Peace.

21 Comments

Kitten of EvilApr 20, 20166 votes

I think Riot really needs to have a serious discussion with the community about the role of mana as a gate for mages, since it sure as hell doesn't gate any other class of champions so hard--between manaless Riven Renekton , ADCs and AD casters having an item that makes them essentially manaless item 3508 , and bruisers who tend to have low mana costs already Darius Illaoi .

It seems like they've unilaterally decided that mages should really feel limited by mana (read: should be uniquely hampered by their reliance on this resource for literally 90% of their damage and utility). I could accept playing DOTA where I can only cast a few spells and go OOM if everyone else was also limited, but it really rankles that other champions do not pay the same price.

What exactly do other classes give up in exchange for being less reliant on mana?

MrWasjigApr 21, 20166 votes

What exactly do other classes give up in exchange for being less reliant on mana?

Well let me give you a quick list: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5.

Hmm...you might need to come back to me.

xl Kirito lxApr 20, 20164 votes

The catalyst one is kind of funny.

For one Valor's reward proc worth of stats, you'd have to take 1300- damage, and spend 600 mana over at least 6 spells.

MrWasjigApr 20, 20165 votes

So overall a nerf, and a solid passive being replaced with gimmicky bullshit. Yep sounds about right :P

Hypochondria9Apr 20, 20162 votes

Athene's gives mana regen when your HP is higher than your mana and vice versa.

MrWasjigApr 21, 20163 votes

I'm lukewarm about that change which is why I omitted it. Still doesn't make up for it's previous (brilliant) passives being gutted.

QuephaApr 20, 20162 votes

Riot literally said in their dev posts that mages are supposed to have big mana pools from items while supports are supposed to have high mana regen from items.

So yes, that is an intended general theme of the mage item update.

MrWasjigApr 21, 20164 votes

But why? Just because they said so? All it does is force mages to build how Riot decrees zey must build!

It's hard to believe they want variety while they simultaneously do something like THIS. Outright saying mages MUST have flat mana and stripping away so many good items in favour of gimmicky bullshit.

QuephaApr 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But why? Just because they said so?

I honestly don't remember.

If I were to guess, it would be to help gate their powerful cc, poke, and/or waveclear to keep them from having the ability to just stall out a game indefinitely any time they're losing. By making their items have mana and synergize wtih mana it also gives them a stat bound to mages that helps them make mage items that don't get picked up by supports and vice versa unless the item has something very appealing to a champion that they're willing to give up stat efficiency to get it.

If you think of which stat should benefit a mana-based mid laner more compared to a support, mana should come out on top over mana regen. Mages generally want to blow up a target with maximum burst potential, even a dps mage will want to be firing on all cylinders during a fight. So a mage either has enough mana in their pool for a full combo or a max-output rotation over the course of a fight, or they don't and they need to back. There really isn't much incentive for them to ratchet back on the spell casting so their mp regen can keep them out on the field for longer, since if you downshift your damage output but your opponent doesn't, your opponent just kills you. Even if they have to back after killing you, they still come out way ahead due to winning that arms race.

Champs in the support role, by contrast, spend a lot of time just roaming around to ward and assist,and that entire time they're roaming they are regenerating health and mana, putting those regen stats to work. Their damage output is generally mediocre to bad, falling off dramatically after the early game due to lack of gold and xp relative to the rest of the team, so they want to save their abilities for their utility and use them when their cc will make the biggest difference rather than firing them off right away so hopefully their cooldowns will allow them to use the spells an additional time in the fight. Being cautious with ability use means less mana spent and more time on the field, which translates into more resources gained from regen stats. Lack of relevance to damage contribution means their team doesn't really care if support Annie can't afford to cast a full combo as long as she has enough to get a stun off.

MrWasjigApr 21, 20162 votes

Personally I disagree. What about clearing waves? What's a mage to do then? Eat shit I suppose. Wave clearing is a big job given that plenty of mages have AoE or some reliable way of clearing waves quickly, and can do so far quicker than a lot of other champions in the game.

Even when we compare to champions that DO have good wave clear, (let's take Sivir for example since she has godlike waveclear) Mages once again are getting the great big shaft. AD Carries have item 3508 which all but negates their mana costs if they build just one other crit item. Heck, even with just ER they can still sustain their mana very easily and give up absolutely nothing for it. So going back to our wave clear example, Sivir can clear waves with ease using her Q and W and regen back all the mana ready for any impending fight. Meanwhile after this patch goes live, Mages need to spend the same amount of mana but can't regen it back as effortlessly, making them far less effective in any impending conflict.

It baffles me that a class that is reliant more on auto attacks than abilities has an easier time sustaining mana than a class that is reliant on abilities and mana to be even remotely useful. Once out of mana mages are useless, they bring nothing. Even a more caster focused ADC still has strong auto attacks once they go OOM. After this patch playing mages will just be like bringing excessive baggage to the team that drags everyone down.

I don't know about you but all Season I've seen nothing but a bias in favour of AD Champions. "B-but muh MYMU" Riot will say. Well you know what? I was once looking forward to it, but now I dread it having seen what's in store.

Peace.

QuephaApr 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Personally I disagree. What about clearing waves? What's a mage to do then? Eat shit I suppose. Wave clearing is a big job given that plenty of mages have AoE or some reliable way of clearing waves quickly, and can do so far quicker than a lot of other champions in the game.

They can clear waves. For a while. They can't do it indefinitely which is always the fantasy of mana regen stats.

You're acting like mages currently don't run out of mana when they build mana regen which is just not true. A Lux with a fully built Morellonomicon will regain enough mana from that Morellonomicon for a single Lucent Singularity once every 30 seconds, to get the gold value equivalent of one sapphire crystal it takes a full minute, and a minute and a half for a full spell rotation. Even if she were out on the field for 5 full minutes after her first engage, she'd only replenish enough mana for 3 more rotations, and that would require a huge rationing of her spells to stay out on the field for that long and a general avoidance of fights that she didn't want to lose. It would be better to build flat mana to be capable of having a few quick fights at full strength, then back to spend your gold, rather than playing weakly in several fights.

MrWasjigApr 21, 20161 votes

Clearly this is coming down to personal preference in playstyle. If I want to stay in lane I can, just hold off on spellcasts for a little while and simply last hit. I don't have to back, I don't have to lose CS, I don't have to lose tower health, and I can go aggressive if need be because my mana has since regen'd.

You can try and convince me all you want but so far, I'm not liking how these changes are looking...at all.

QuephaApr 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Clearly this is coming down to personal preference in playstyle. If I want to stay in lane I can, just hold off on spellcasts for a little while and simply last hit. I don't have to back, I don't have to lose CS, I don't have to lose tower health, and I can go aggressive if need be because my mana has since regen'd.

You can try and convince me all you want but so far, I'm not liking how these changes are looking...at all.

If you are planning on sitting under tower and not engaging the enemy, then why do you also want to build the items that will let you blow them up when you do? If you just want to enforce a neutral game and support your team when they show up, then you can build like a support and have the advantages and disadvantages of a support.

MrWasjigApr 21, 20161 votes

then why do you also want to build the items that will let you blow them up when you do?

Because being useless when the time comes to be useful is not fun, it's boring. But I don't mind playing more frugal for a few minutes should the situation call for it.

And who's to say I'm sitting under tower? Just last hitting doesn't necessarily mean sitting under tower or not throwing out some poke. It just means I'm not making full on trades. And in the process of poking it's entirely possible to push the wave out some as well so you're not pushed under tower.

Really not hard :P

Malix FarwinApr 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't remember.

If I were to guess, it would be to help gate their powerful cc, poke, and/or waveclear to keep them from having the ability to just stall out a game indefinitely any time they're losing. By making their items have mana and synergize wtih mana it also gives them a stat bound to mages that helps them make mage items that don't get picked up by supports and vice versa unless the item has something very appealing to a champion that they're willing to give up stat efficiency to get it.

If you think of which stat should benefit a mana-based mid laner more compared to a support, mana should come out on top over mana regen. Mages generally want to blow up a target with maximum burst potential, even a dps mage will want to be firing on all cylinders during a fight. So a mage either has enough mana in their pool for a full combo or a max-output rotation over the course of a fight, or they don't and they need to back. There really isn't much incentive for them to ratchet back on the spell casting so their mp regen can keep them out on the field for longer, since if you downshift your damage output but your opponent doesn't, your opponent just kills you. Even if they have to back after killing you, they still come out way ahead due to winning that arms race.

Champs in the support role, by contrast, spend a lot of time just roaming around to ward and assist,and that entire time they're roaming they are regenerating health and mana, putting those regen stats to work. Their damage output is generally mediocre to bad, falling off dramatically after the early game due to lack of gold and xp relative to the rest of the team, so they want to save their abilities for their utility and use them when their cc will make the biggest difference rather than firing them off right away so hopefully their cooldowns will allow them to use the spells an additional time in the fight. Being cautious with ability use means less mana spent and more time on the field, which translates into more resources gained from regen stats. Lack of relevance to damage contribution means their team doesn't really care if support Annie can't afford to cast a full combo as long as she has enough to get a stun off.

Heres the problems with being able to blow people up as a mage. One, burst has taking a nerf across the board from items to champions themselves. Second, You will likely be oom trying to maintain your lane which removes your ability to "burst" or even poke anyone down. Third, with have less AP on items overall, MR items become much more effective.

QuephaApr 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QUNVtU55,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-21T16:15:18.933+0000)

Heres the problems with being able to blow people up as a mage. One, burst has taking a nerf across the board from items to champions themselves.

That's debatable.

Second, You will likely be oom trying to maintain your lane which removes your ability to "burst" or even poke anyone down.

Sounds like you're talking about lane phase, mages do not have a lot of items built in lane phase so it's a wash whether the items they want have flat mana or mp regen. Furthermore, in the early game champs generally spend the least amount of time out on the field and have the smallest base mp regens, both factors that make flat mana much better than mana regen.

Third, with have less AP on items overall, MR items become much more effective.

I don't believe AP is less plentiful, there have been a lot of balance changes to mage items that mix things up but I think Riot has made adjustments so that AP is just as available in terms of gold and slot efficiency. Even if it wasn't, that doesn't make MR more effective at all. MR is exactly as effective in either case. The stats that effect MR's effectiveness are flat pen which increases its effectiveness and percent pen which decreases its effectiveness.

Athenes LuluApr 20, 20162 votes

Sounds more like forcing people into even more stale builds.

We all know 75% base mana regen on supports is far from enough. Solution? Better rush Athene's every single game!

MrWasjigApr 21, 20164 votes

Yeah that sounds about right "To force people into this item we're going to nerf another that's been a staple, reliable choice so far just for the sake of deciding how you play League of Legends" What were they thinking with Athene's? They took a universally great item and made it really really niche. What midlaner is going to buy it if they don't have a shield? None of 'em!

SlashStrikerApr 20, 20161 votes

Morellonomicon *Removed +100% Base Mana Regen 100 AP 20% CDR 400 mana New UNIQUE Passive: Kills and Assists restore 20% of your maximum Mana (At least they moved this over to Morello's) Grievous (MAN FUCK THAT WORD SERIOUSLY!) wounds to champs below ???35%??? - that would actually be quite useless

don't underestimate the new Nomicon. Rod of Ages is very good mana item. Getting 20% max mana per takedown is actaully pretty good especially on AP assassins. I can tell you from now AP champs will massively buy this item. Mana Restoration passive and 20% CDR was exact reason I loved unholy grail.

What I say give the new mana items a chance. It would turn out that they are actually not that bad and even turn out to be really good

MrWasjigApr 21, 20161 votes

Again, this is just moving half Athene's old passive over. It's nothing new sadly.

Overall I can't say the item changes light my trousers on fire, and if anything I more so dread them. Like the entire mid-season patch.

That's not to say I won't give it all a try. I try not to condemn out of ignorance, but as I've said my bar isn't particularly high.

Malix FarwinApr 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Morellonomicon *Removed +100% Base Mana Regen 100 AP 20% CDR 400 mana New UNIQUE Passive: Kills and Assists restore 20% of your maximum Mana (At least they moved this over to Morello's) Grievous (MAN FUCK THAT WORD SERIOUSLY!) wounds to champs below ???35%??? - that would actually be quite useless

don't underestimate the new Nomicon. Rod of Ages is very good mana item. Getting 20% max mana per takedown is actaully pretty good especially on AP assassins. I can tell you from now AP champs will massively buy this item. Mana Restoration passive and 20% CDR was exact reason I loved unholy grail.

What I say give the new mana items a chance. It would turn out that they are actually not that bad and even turn out to be really good

the problem is not AP assassins since they never really bought mana regen to begin with(although new morellonomicon is make fizz especially stronger), the problem is most mages lack a way to recover mana. Most mages will be unplayable once these changes go through and you will be pushed under your turret and lose it easily to AD champs who do not need mana to push and will out-sustain you. Your pokes will be pointless and your wave clear will run dry quickly

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