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Rengar needs windows.

The Ecdysiast··27 votes·10,642 views

He needs a window for his kills, so he can't just kill you in under half a second with half a build and no jungle item. And a window of actual vulnerability, which his changed W that wasn't reverted to its original state when it should have been along with his Q doesn't give.

While Zed is a problem for completely different reasons (namely that the game incorrectly treats a single cast of his Q as two separate attacks for Electrocute when it was specifically changed to prevent such things), the fact you can buy Zhonya's against him and/or have allies shield/heal you while you're marked adds balance to his ability to kill targets. Unless he's very far ahead, his kills should have a fixed time they take to pull off.

On the contrary, Rengar needs no more than a quarter of a second. Giving you and your team no time whatsoever to react with shielding/healing (especially now that both have been nerfed heavily), while there are also only two abilities in the game that can be placed around priority targets to protect them from his leap (Veigar's E and Poppy's W).

And despite the fact his Q was reverted to its stronger original state, they kept the massive damage-taken-based heal and cleanse on his W that was put on to compensate for the weaker Q. He shouldn't have that option to simply walk out completely unscathed even against an enemy with damage similar to his.

EditL Just going to add, his ultimate does not act as a window. There is no Stasis, Invulnerability, or Shield in the game that lasts even half as long as his ult. You'd have to make the boneheaded mistake of giving them vision of you to screw it up. Even then, this can easily be done from a bush without the need for the ultimate.

47 Comments

Firebeard18 votes

Can you make a similar post titled Rengar needs Linux?

YoRHa 2B4 votes

How about Mac OS?

Firebeard7 votes

[{quoted}](name=YoRHa 2B,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRkUqoWA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-11T14:14:55.695+0000)

How about Mac OS?

Don't even get me started. My sister thinks I'm good with computers and came over to my place to get me to fix her macbook (first time ever using the mac os) and I got so pissed so fast. "Where's the internet?" "How do I close out of the window? Where's the red X?" "Wait, it's 3 colored dots on the wrong side? Heck outta here." "Why do I have to drag and drop programs to download them?" "So I downloaded the program... where is it?" "HOLD THE FUCK UP WHY IS THE SCREEN SCROLLING DOWN WHEN I SCROLL UP ON THE MOUSE?!?!?! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" Anyway, fuck Mac. I had it for an hour and a half and I'm done with it.

YoRHa 2B2 votes

Never used Mac and probably won't since I like Windows better + it's cheaper.

Leetri2 votes

I did an internship at a design firm for a month and that was the first (and hopefully last) time I had to use a Mac. It felt as if they intentionally tried to make everything the polar opposite of Windows without thinking if there's a reason Microsoft made it that way in the first place.

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=YoRHa 2B,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRkUqoWA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-11T14:14:55.695+0000)

How about Mac OS?

No one needs Mac OS....

YoRHa 2B2 votes

That feel when you try to make a joke and everyone downvotes you...

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=YoRHa 2B,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QRkUqoWA,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-12T09:17:39.278+0000)

That feel when you try to make a joke and everyone downvotes you...

I think it was because someone already made the joke about linex. Still, I chuckled xD

YoRHa 2B1 votes

That's why I asked "what about Mac OS"

Mama Soraka8 votes

https://i.imgur.com/Bu1oGQm.png

Instructions unclear, windows have had no effect on subject

[sg-miss-fortune]

The Ecdysiast2 votes

I mean, it appears as though it has had the intended effect. He must now make some sort of effort to get to me past those bad boys.

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

So... We just revert W, I guess?

Davaken1 votes

I really hope not. The old W was the most braindead ability ever, you just pressed it and forgot about it. The new one takes actual skill to use.

Dio Bento2 votes

His W doesn't give CC immunity anymore. It was removed before the revert.

Also he doesn't kill you in a quarter of a second most of the time, that's my expirience anyway.

The Ecdysiast4 votes

My bad, forgot to look back at the current moves when I was typing this up. Though he still shouldn't have an instant heal based on damage taken (both Tahm and Pyke's grey health is specifically over time because such a thing is unfair) , or a cleanse.

And sure, maybe he doesn't kill you in a quarter second if you're a tank or a tanky fighter. But you're only playing against inexperienced Rengars if you aren't getting that as squishy champions.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

And sure, maybe he doesn't kill you in a quarter second if you're a tank or a tanky fighter. But you're only playing against inexperienced Rengars if you aren't getting that as squishy champions.

Sounds like an average Diver to me.

SmallCheeseCake2 votes

Well if Rengar is fed I think he should 100% blow a squishy instantly, because if he is doing a skirmish/teamfight in a lane, after he deletes someone you can just kite him. Saying he needs windows means you need to give him better sticking power and maybe tankiness. If you just try to make windows of time, he is literally just a walking sack of gold.

Mordepool2 votes

He's the only Champion to have killed me in .2 of a second.

He was fed I was not. Nuff said

IainG101 votes

Jax, with Ignite, Electrocute and Stormrazor

LordGeovanni1 votes

unless you have both item 3071 and item 3091 debuffs stacked on you and some one stacked jax's E i dont see how that happened unless you a squishy champion 3-4 levels down and 2 full items down

IainG101 votes

Him, 'Support' Jax, lvl 8: item 3302 item 3095

Me, Support Lux, lvl 7: item 1001 item 3092 item 1004

DKM Bismarck1 votes

Old Talon? Current Talon when ahead can also do something very similar thanks to Duskblade.

HJTBB2 votes

buy a zhonyas if you adc, buy a stopwatch anyway his ult has a 3 second startup, and he can only jump from a bush if you walk into it his window starts as soon as you walk into bush range, so never let it start his ult is stopwatch bait anyway, it's better used as a zoning tool

The Ecdysiast2 votes
  1. It is physically impossible to react to him when he jumps on you, and unless you have a way to burst him yourself, he only needs to wait out the Zhonya's.
  2. See 1.
  3. That's false. You don't need to be in the bush. His passive is specifically able to jump OUT OF the bush towards you.
  4. There are bushes all over the map.
  5. Also not true.
Shablagoo2 votes

So you mean the dimming of the screen, big sign over your head, and in game noise isnt enough of a window. How about add a new mechanic where we make the game freeze for 5 mins so you can run to your time when you were pushing alone.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Oh I'm sorry, are you falsely implying that him activating his ultimate is part of his attack?

Shablagoo1 votes

If you are talking about his combo then yes it is apart of his "attack" and its huge part. If not im not understanding what windows are necessary? Because no rengar is killing anyone under half a second otherwise( as if he could anyway), and if you are going to exaggerate make it believable.

XeroKimo1 votes

I'd wish they'd pull some power from his Q into his E, the base Q's damage seems to be more than enough to one shot his opponents whenever he rises so something like

Q: -Base damage reduced to 10 / 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 from 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 -Ratio increased to 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30% AD from 0 / 5 / 10 / 15 / 20% AD -Cooldown lowered to 4 seconds from 6/5.5/5/4.5/4

Empowered Q: -Base damage reduced to 30-150 from 30-240 based on level -Ratio increased to 60% AD from 40% AD

E: -Base damage increased to 85 / 130 / 175 / 220 / 265 from 55 / 100 / 145 / 190 / 235

Empowered E: -Base damage increased to 85 - 305 from 50-305 based on level

should be enough to allow him to keep his under 1 second burst, but require more abilities to land rather than just jumping out with a Q

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Lol so just nerf him? He lost 30 damage in that "trade"

XeroKimo1 votes

He gained 30 base damage on his E, his empowered Q damage breaks even around 450 AD while base Q breaks even at around 600

HaIlMonitor1 votes

That was 9 patches ago and his winrate is sitting at 48-51 depending what elo you choose. Also they are nerfing him from double nerfing items he build because of other champs.

I mean you are hella Bias from being an ADC main I guess, but damn you are pretty dense if you think he needs nerfed because he the diver that is currently strong.

XeroKimo1 votes

I'm not an adc main, and I'm not aiming to nerf him at all, statistics also don't really mean much when it comes to how fun it is to play as or against a champion, while currently he is bloated in being able to use both Duskblade and Stormrazor, whenever Rengar does get strong, it's because he can just jump out of his ult and auto->Q or just Q his opponent and they die.

What I aim for is to take that away and have him required to use his E to burst an opponent or use an empowered Q to do so. I aim to keep his ability to burst an opponent be under 1 second, but now land more than just his Q, auto and a W.

I did run some numbers just now and I think the ratio changes for the early game might be too weak so it should just be

20 / 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30% AD from 10-30% based on rank

I could probably have the cooldown changed to 5-4 seconds based on rank

With that he won't be losing too much damage early while still requiring more than just a Q to kill an opponent if he ever becomes meta, or indirectly strong like he is now, could play with the numbers some more but I do hope the point gets across

LordGeovanni1 votes

Assassins need windows in which to do their damage that isnt just insta gib and they need windows in which people can retaliate after they kill people.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Yes that was indeed my exact point.

DKM Bismarck3 votes

Most assassins have this. Zed Death Mark timer, Talon bleed stacks, Fizz R etc

The problem is with the current state of runes, these champs are getting away with blue murder as in, they can build Duskblade (AD assassins) and alongside Electrocute, their kit gets like +300 damage or more depending on game time. That's an entire skill. Elec needs nerfing, Duskblade needs reworking. The champs themselves are generally okay, though I would say Rengar is a problem child champ, statistically he is fine where he is right now.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Yes but Zed can blink away during his death mark count down. Talon has bleed but its just tacked on there with the amount of damage the rest of his kit does he in no way needs to proc his bleed. Fizz R has far too much base damage for a spell that gets increased damage for enemies missing health. They have things that seem like windows and function like them too but they dont allow you to fight them back during that time and those windows are usually delayed deaths but not needed to kill you most of the time. Electrocute and Duskblade do need changes but even without them that doesnt change the problem of of there not being ways to punish those assassins which is inherent in their kits.

DKM Bismarck1 votes

When his items aren't OP? Talon abso-fucking-lutely needs to proc bleed. If a Zed blinks back too early he won't kill. Fizz needs to dump full combo so he should be vulnerable following it unless he has Zhonya, and that's an item synergy problem not a champ problem.

You can cc Talon during his Q dash or out of his auto to proc bleed, Zed has a delay before he can return to deathmark (admittedly short, he usually can't fullcombo you in that short time), Yea Fizz is bullshit but you can Zhonya his R.

LordGeovanni1 votes

okay ill build zhonyas on all my champions Aatrox Braum Darius Jax JarvanIV Kayn Kled Khazix Nautilus Rakan Trundle Taric Yorick

DKM Bismarck1 votes

All those champs can buy GA or have other means to survive through itemisation or their kits. You won't convince me that Aatrox, Red Kayn, Jax, J4, Kled, Yorick, Trundle, Taric, Naut, Darius or Braum are gonna die to an assassin unless you're really behind or you fucked up suuuuper badly and it's your fault for dying to them, honestly. Kha is also an assassin, blue Kayn is also an assassin and Rakan can die to them I guess. You also conveniently missed out the part where I gave you ways to deal with these champs, and most of these champs have those tools (ccing out of Talon Q) and you focused in on what I said about Fizz despite me saying I think he's bullshit.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Please GA isnt good on any champion building health neither for damage or defense or the revive what heals you off of your base hp as a big screw you to front line tanks and fighters from the balance team. all you are doing is ensuring that you have to use that revive every time its up and die after it procs anyway and cry when ever it isnt up because you have to run like those classes that are supposedly squishy from those classes that are supposedly squishy. All of those champions either die to an assassin or they have to forgo any chance at early game dominance to build defense in anticipation of when ever an assassin hits level 5 because most of them have slow moves for the sake of being telegraphed and counter play versus other people in melee range but assassins have none of that because they are intended to mess up safe ranged champions but it just screws over other melee champions harder than it it just allows then to lane versus ranged champions

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

Assassins need windows in which to do their damage that isnt just insta gib and they need windows in which people can retaliate after they kill people.

assains have always instagibbed people... thats thier role... the problem is they didn't do it to people who had full hp thier job was to pick off the low hp targets. not to murder any champion that walks by

LordGeovanni1 votes

I have no problem with them instagibbing but things have to be in place so that they dont do it on full hp champions, have long downtimes after they have instagibbed people on all of their damage and mobility spells, cant instantly excape after they killed some one (the reward for killing a key champion is that you killed that champion and they cant contribute to fights while you still can even if its only auto attacks until your cooldowns come back. ), cant then duel fighters on even ground (actually they dictate the terms on if a fighter can even hit them) and cant do shit like akali sitting in shroud until its 1.5 seconds cooldown left.

Mopoii1 votes

Rengar's fine, chill lol

The Ecdysiast2 votes

It's okay to be wrong.

DKM Bismarck2 votes

In terms of playing vs, he probably isn't. Rengar isn't a problem in that he's strong, he's a problem in that he feels utterly unfair to play vs unless you're playing a champ that can turn around and one shot him before he can one shot you like Talon or Zed if you time R well.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

And despite the fact his Q was reverted to its stronger original state, they kept the massive damage-taken-based heal and cleanse on his W that was put on to compensate for the weaker Q. He shouldn't have that option to simply walk out completely unscathed even against an enemy with damage similar to his.

Lol you are spouting nonsense. Swim Q was WAY stronger then his current one. Rengar mains were just sick of the clunky clown that riot made and accepted that he would be weaker.

Teridax681 votes

I think part of the problem with Rengar right now, as with most other AD assassins, is that Duskblade (and, in his case, Stormrazor as well) adds a ton of front-loaded damage by itself. Without the item, his ability to burst people down so quickly would likely go down significantly by itself.

With that in mind, though, I do think it might also help to back-load a little bit of Rengar's innate damage as well. He still deals 50% tAD bonus physical damage on his next attack after coming out of his ult, and that I think would be better to remove in exchange for better flat armor reduction (he'd still have enhanced killing power against his target, just not so much upfront). Other than that, it might also help to take some damage out of his abilities and put it into his attacks: part of the issue here is that all of Rengar's basic abilities can be landed in quick succession and also all deal damage, which means he can easily press all of his buttons in a fraction of a second if he needs to, and kill targets just as quickly. Personally, I'd go as far as to remove the damage entirely from his kit, and instead have the baseline Q provide an attack speed bonus (and perhaps maintain bonus Q damage, but only at max Ferocity), but the more reasonable change might just be to remove part of the damage on his kit, and increase his AD/AS instead (and perhaps still have the baseline Q give bonus attack speed).

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