For the first time ever I bought Deathcap to complete an AP build and got less than 600 total AP..

Valhalla Rising·Nov 27, 2016·116 votes·8,135 views

Since so many items continuously lose AP(Inc Rylais nerf) for other stats/cost reduction, I really think Deathcaps Total cost should be considered for a slight reduction.

And possibly consider making a component item for it that gives maybe 20% bonus AP to make building the item less painful to complete(similar to for , which would be especially helpful when built last.

Edit: P.s. Build was lvl 18 with natural talent mastery 587 total AP, after rylais nerf that would be 562 :(

Reminder that not asking for more AP just a fair price.

193 Comments

DrCyanideNov 27, 201613 votes

The combine cost on Deathcap is an insane 1265g, beaten only by the cost of Voidstaff's 1365.

BlàdedancerNov 27, 20168 votes

But there is still Morello, Ludens, and Void that give a good chunk of AP, then the smaller ones like Zhonyas, Aby, and Protobelt.

Zero Skill TankNov 27, 201658 votes

This is still way, way less AP than it used to be.

There is a reason why so many AP champions abuse tank builds instead of building AP.

DKM BismarckNov 27, 20166 votes

Ya I frequently have 700 AP in a full build on an AP like Katarina unless I get GA. AP is not hard to get and AP champs do not do too little damage, there is a reason why there is always a rather large handful of absolutely busted AP's and they don't get nerfed for months. But God forbid Rengar be strong, not even OP or best jung pick for 2 patches, better nerf him harder than they are nerfing Syndra even though she has been OP for 3 months :) Honestly mage mains are super whiny I don't play Rengar by the way I don't even like him post rework

YumaS2AstralNov 27, 201624 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blade Or Soul,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QQPfjzM7,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-11-27T16:00:23.044+0000)

Ya I frequently have 700 AP in a full build on an AP like Katarina unless I get GA. AP is not hard to get and AP champs do not do too little damage, there is a reason why there is always a rather large handful of absolutely busted AP's and they don't get nerfed for months. But God forbid Rengar be strong, not even OP or best jung pick for 2 patches, better nerf him harder than they are nerfing Syndra even though she has been OP for 3 months :) Honestly mage mains are super whiny I don't play Rengar by the way I don't even like him post rework

Katarina can get that amount of AP because she is allowed to not itemize for mana or cooldown reduction. AP items with such stats generally come with less AP, making mages have less AP overall in a full build, than if they were to just itemize for raw AP. Katarina is allowed to build or to rush items like item 3151 item 3285 item 3146 item 3089 which have a lot of AP but do not include CDR or mana, which most other mages need first before they can get AP.

The game has been changed in many ways (overall AP on items nerfed, power creep, more CDR avaliable, snowball potential reduced, many APs have been reworked); mages and AP assassins can no longer build raw AP like before. They must now build CDR or mana for a variety of reasons. Katarina can still get away with this because not only she is manaless, but she also has a passive that allows her to completely disregard CDR, unlike almost every other caster champion.

B0OMNov 27, 20169 votes

Your mana argument doesn't make sense, since all 3 mana/AP items item 3165 item 3027 item 3040 also give the highest AP available on a single item besides item 3089 . Granted, RoA and Seraph's need the added time to stack, but the point still stands.

softest boyNov 27, 20163 votes

Yes, and mages can only build one of those effectively. It's not effective to build all three of those on one mage in one game.

ChaddyFantomeNov 27, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Yes, and mages can only build one of those effectively. It's not effective to build all three of those on one mage in one game.

But Seraph literally scales with more Mana.

it is RISKY to build all 3 but, yeah. Thats the price for late game power, you give up some early power.

M Dragon14Nov 27, 20166 votes

Ryze would disagree with you.

WimbledofyNov 27, 20162 votes

it has nothing to do with the needed stats of cdr/mana. Most of the core cdr items have not been changed or have been buffed such as morello/lichbane. The items that were heavily nerfed in ap were zhonyas which lost 20 ap then lost another 30 ap after that, and abyssal which lost 20 I think. It's not wanting mage stats that makes you lose ap, it's wanting the tankier stats of zhonyas/abyssal that contribute to the loss of ap (as well as the overall nerf on ap on the other high ap items).

Guyy FieriNov 27, 20165 votes

You realize that manaless mages really can't build Seraph's, or Rod, or Morelos, three of the highest AP items in the game?

VesemirNov 27, 20168 votes

Not to mention there are so many counter AP items for AD champs. AP champs usually get nothing.

DKM BismarckNov 27, 20165 votes

Don't need it when Zhonya has one of the strongest actives and gives solid Armour as well. AP also has more access to HP items than AD does unless we're talking about AD bruisers / juggernauts. Don't list Mercurial as a "counter to AP's" either because that isn't what it's designed for and I have no idea why Mercurial even gives MR now we have EoN, I think it should have armour or simply more AD instead of the MR. AP gets more utility, AD tends to get more straight resistances.

Sraeg2013Nov 27, 20167 votes

Situationally strongest active.

It's entirely useless, if your team won't peel for you and pretty much every champion you need Zhonya against can still kill you once the stasis ends.

Not to mention the armor Zhonya's Hourglass gives is so insignificant, it's entirely negated through STANDARD builds.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 27, 20162 votes

Better have that armor partly negated than getting nuked with true dmg.

Sraeg2013Nov 27, 20164 votes

Due to the nature of armor and armor penetration, you will never take true damage from physical damage sources, so it's a moot point.

Unless, say, Zed will decide to buy Black Cleaver and every single Lethality item in the game. Then maaaybe.

Kosm1KNov 28, 20162 votes

Lethality is pretty shit too, It's actually more cost efficient to buy item 3035 than to buy item 3134 to counter the armor in zhonyas just because at the level you're buying it, say first back, it only penetrates around 6 armor, for about the same gold as last whisper just because of how lethality works.

NineTailedMysticNov 27, 201612 votes

45 Armor no HP is solid?

JasiwelNov 27, 20167 votes

I'm a little more bothered by the fact that Void Staff and Deathcap together are almost mandatory now. Unless the enemy team has no real MR, you can't not build Void Staff or your damage drops significantly late game. If you don't build Death Cap, then the HP late game will wall your damage. In my opinion, that stifles clever itemization and turns AP mages back into the "burst everything or die" patterns we have seen before.

TeCoolMageNov 27, 20166 votes

lol give it CDR and call it a day

DrahcirNov 27, 201621 votes

dear god please no.

TeCoolMageNov 27, 20165 votes

kek

drakuIa421Nov 27, 20164 votes

give it the deathfire grasp active :^)

TeCoolMageNov 27, 20165 votes

make it merge with zhonya's into this item: item 3090

JonxxNov 27, 20164 votes

It used to be a thing actually... http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zhonya's_Ring

DarkRitualNov 27, 20166 votes

How about another Magic Pen item instead?

ShadragonNov 27, 20162 votes

As long as MR itemization gets some variety too. I'd like to see some of item 3065 power shifted to its niche and away from "Best MR item in the universe, always build this because it's just 100% better than everything else"

Blackstone01Nov 27, 20166 votes

Laughs in Veigar

ACENOXNov 27, 20165 votes

mages do insane damage with 300 ap, and people want to give them more ap

sad

Stars ShaperNov 27, 201621 votes

Not "mages" (Edit: not all the mages).

Cassiopeia Leblanc Malzahar Viktor Do.

ACENOXNov 27, 20167 votes

Velkoz have you seen his damage with 300 AP? Veigar Ryze Syndra Orianna have you seen the damage of those people?

mage mains are by far the worst, they have no clue how strong they are and they still complain, just like tank mains

Kassadin meanwhile he can go bit the dust to try to be relevant with 300 ap

PennsNov 27, 20162 votes

Not sure if mage, support or tank mains are the worst lel

Sahn UzalNov 27, 201645 votes

You misspelled ADC mains :^)

PennsNov 27, 20163 votes

They at least have a reason to complain in this meta unless theyre playing Vayne. But I barely see one complain on here anyway..

DoseqisNov 27, 201620 votes

LOL you are 100% an ADC main then, they have no reason to complain Assassins suck balls and tanks are everywhere peeling for them.

PennsNov 27, 20162 votes

Actually, Im an assassin main but Id say adcs have the most right to complain this season right after assassins. Tanks peeling for them is nice and Id argue utility supports like Janna or Soraka are broken with the new items but tanks/bruisers getting on top of them with a 600-1k shield isnt.

VolgorathNov 27, 201620 votes

Reads "assassin main" So you play Vayne then?

TheSlogsNov 27, 201622 votes

Someone is playing Veigar very wrong if they only have 300 ap.

KilanostNov 27, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Someone is playing very wrong if they only have 300 ap.

Thats because they hit 300 AP at 10 minutes lol.

TheSlogsNov 27, 201610 votes

That's a myth. There is pre core items Veigar that has between 50-150 ap, then there is post core items Veigar with over 500 ap. There is no point between the two.

ZephyrDrakeNov 27, 20169 votes

{quoted}

have you seen his damage with 300 AP? have you seen the damage of those people?

mage mains are by far the worst, they have no clue how strong they are and they still complain, just like tank mains

meanwhile he can go bit the dust to try to be relevant with 300 ap

Velko'z does true damage... Veigar gains AP just by harassing so by the time he gets 300 AP everyone else is struggling to even reach the 150 mark (unless he just plain sucks but then again no point in discussing that part). Ryze also scales with mana so take note of what else he has besides those 300 AP worth of items. Syndra's damage scales depending on how many balls she has nearby so ofc she is going to deal high amounts of damage if she has 5+ balls nearby and you go towards her with NO MR ITEMS! Orianna deals damage with 300 AP? sorry but what? how many Qs did you just let her shove into your mouth?

ACENOXNov 27, 20162 votes

are you dumb? it doesn't matter that they scale with something else and that veigar can have 300 ap faster, they still dish a thousan billion of damage

orianna full combo does 180+250+300+180 (+220% AP), and it's on low cooldown little child

ZephyrDrakeNov 27, 20169 votes

{quoted}

are you dumb? it doesn't matter that they scale with something else and that veigar can have 300 ap faster, they still dish a thousan billion of damage

orianna full combo does 180+250+300+180 (+220% AP), and it's on low cooldown little child

sorry but what? Veigar getting more AP faster means that you don't have the items necessary to withstand his spells, so you will receive more damage as a result. Also it does matter if they do scale with something else because that something else is adding MORE DAMAGE to them, if you cannot comprehend that very simple basic thing then i have no idea what to say.

Also great, we are talking about an lvl 18 Orianna! now please give me every single full combo of every single champion in the game at lvl 18. You literally have to eat every single one of her Qs for her damage to be significant... or get caught in her ult. Otherwise her damage is not that high.

DeathBurstNov 27, 20164 votes

If you want to reach very high AP late-game, you have to build a Tear and other AP/Mana items before a DCap. It's logical that you have to trade some early game pressure if you want to be a late game monster.

NineTailedMysticNov 27, 20163 votes

Tear isn't viable on most APs tho

DeathBurstNov 27, 20164 votes

"Most APs" shouldn't be late game monsters and shouldn't get more than 600 AP in their standard build.

If they want to reach 600 AP late game, they have to trade for it in the early game, and accept a weaker build path, namely, going for a Tear.

ThefrostyvikingNov 27, 20164 votes

{quoted}

"Most APs" shouldn't be late game monsters and shouldn't get more than 600 AP in their standard build.

If they want to reach 600 AP late game, they have to trade for it in the early game, and accept a weaker build path, namely, going for a Tear.

You can't make this work though for AP assassins share items with the mages and some mages like ahri would become useless due to not being really strong early or late.

DeathBurstNov 27, 20161 votes

I don't understand your point.

Any champ, Assassin or Mage doesn't matter, should be strong in early or in late but not in both. For some champs like Nasus or Vayne, it's hard-coded in their kit, but some AP champs have the luxury to choose and adapt their build path.

Sure, not all of them, and it would be stupid for a LeBlanc to go for Tear, because her kit makes her strong in early and she must double-dip on that and actually exploit her strengths in the early game. But the same LeBlanc should not be allowed to reach 600+ AP in late game and still delete everyone in one combo. If she complains about that, she's just hypocritical.

HazyCloud7Nov 27, 20162 votes

Do you even know how new LeBlanc's kit even works? She's not a late game dive your backline assassin anymore. She has to play teamfights from front to back. If she tried to assassinate the backline before doing so she'd be bursted because of the 1.5 second passive timer + delay on W snapback.

Caitlyn is a lane bully with an amazing late game. Mages are not the only class with champions that are good at various points of the game.