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Lee Sin is still the most popular jungler by far.

HateDaddy··19 votes·3,854 views

Even after the nerfs, which did actually reduce his power quite a bit by bringing his winrate down 3%. However, this hasn't changed the fact that he is basically in every game. He's still incredibly popular in competitive.

I'm not advocating more Lee nerfs here. What does that say about the jungle? What does that state about the current junglers and meta that a 47% winrate champion is the most popular jungler by far - it's not even close. Sure, Lee has always been popular but when he's clearly been weak, his popularity has significantly dropped before. And nerfing him clearly isn't going to change that so all we've done is made him weaker when in reality, the issue is largely a problem with the current state of the jungle and meta in general which is largely dictated by the jungle meta anyway.

Lee needs some power shifts in my opinion. But more than anything, this current jungle meta needs to be changed. I think the variety in junglers being rather lacking contributes to that. But most junglers perform pretty decently statistically so the issue is clearly a problem of "sure you could pick x and do well but y exists and can do just as well for half the effort." A conscious effort needs to be made on finding a balance between farming and ganking junglers because we constantly go from farm jungler to gank jungler. And that shit is lame and it impacts the game so much.

Tl;dr

Change jungle, buff other junglers and introduce ways of making more champions viable in the jungle so a sub 50% winrate champion isn't the most popular pick by far in the jungle.

46 Comments

Thistlemin16 votes

Free dashes, wall hopping, no risk and no mana engages, best in class escapes, maybe best escapes of any champ in game.

Until his unparralelled dash in and out engages (except for Zac) are scaled back he will remain the go to. He is synonymous with jungling. At some point we will just call jungling 'Lee Sinning'.

There are numerous ways of fixing Lee but Riot has proven they have no interest in balancing his kit whatsoever.

Scrapping his energy system and putting him on a mana bar like Xin, WW, Yi would make a hige difference to his level Q fishing tower diving tactics that have ZERO drawback of missing.

Lee Sin is a great champion and Im glad his kit exists. But he easily has an overloaded kit with too many free talents that keep himin the top tiers at all times.

Its not like Lee Sins energy bar is restrictive too his spammable skills so he doesnt have to resource manage like the other junglers he outperforms just in kit alone.

PePsiLemoNN4 votes

maybe best escapes of any champ in game.

Fizz Leblanc Riven Thresh Bard

Free dashes

He needs a target for his W and Q but let's just call them free.

putting him on a mana bar

This reminds me of those threads asking for Riven to get a mana bar

unparralelled dash in and out engages

Zed Leblanc Kassadin Katarina Renekton

Pyro2 votes

Fizz and LB yeah, but the other aren't nearly as good at escaping as Lee.

He needs a target for his W and Q but let's just call them free.

He does not need a target for W. Wardhopping is an exploit that was never supposed to exist, but people got too used to it to remove it now. Lee would have been balanced if it wasn't for wardhopping.

And again, you bring up a few good examples of champions who can go in and out - LeBlanc, Katarina, Renekton - and a few who cannot go out as easily as they go in.

PePsiLemoNN3 votes

A ward is a target ....

Pyro1 votes

Barely. The spell was designed with minions and allies in mind. You can place a ward wherever you want. It's not an infinite resource, but you're definitely not dependent on your allies unlike Braum W.

Eedat2 votes

Hey buddy, wards are a finite resource.

Thistlemin1 votes

{quoted}

Fizz Leblanc Riven Thresh Bard

He needs a target for his W and Q but let's just call them free.

This reminds me of those threads asking for Riven to get a mana bar

Zed Leblanc Kassadin Katarina Renekton

Are you claiming any of those other champs are as mobile as Lee Sin because thats laughable. Youre actually comparing Thresh and Renekton to Lee Sin. Lee Sins kit has been a problem since release and overloaded with free escapes methods. Free as in he pays no mana and since he can ward hop, wall hop to jg minions, dash to teammates, q to reg minions or enemy champions what else under the sun in way of dashes does Lee not have?

Its a ridiculous argument to compare him to any of the champs you showed. Talon, Zac, Nidalee are on a very short list of other champions that can compare with his unparalleled mobility.

Just because Jax can do one or two of the moves Lee Sin can do for example doesn't put him on par hence Jax's incredibly low jg playrate.

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

Free as in he pays no mana

Energy

Renekton has better ''in and out engages'' than Lee and Thresh has his lantern + the strongest slow in the game.

Leblanc Kassadin Riven ARE more mobile than Lee

Talon, Zac, Nidalee are on a very short list of other champions that can compare with his unparalleled mobility.

How is Nidalee more mobile than him but Riven isn't? How is Zac even mobile lol? He has to charge his E and he can get cc'd out of it so he can't escape with it , his R has a charge time too.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

maybe best escapes of any champ in game.

lmao... so weak Talon

But he easily has an overloaded kit with too many free talents that keep himin the top tiers at all times.

Overloaded Oo

ZT Xperimentor6 votes

Maybe if riot would drop their favoritism and give him a meaningful nerf (they lowered his movement speed by 5), he wouldn't be such a universally effective champion. He's one of the original overloaded champions, a forerunner of mobility and manaless power, a flexible generalist without the drawbacks of it.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QPeqP4xP,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-06-15T00:25:26.298+0000)

Maybe if riot would drop their favoritism and give him a meaningful nerf (they lowered his movement speed by 5), he wouldn't be such a universally effective champion. He's one of the original overloaded champions, a forerunner of mobility and manaless power, a flexible generalist without the drawbacks of it.

They also nerfed his Rs CD, which was a fairly decent nerf. The Ms nerf is insignificant. Lee needs power shifts, not more nerfs.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

He already has enough power to make two champions.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QPeqP4xP,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-06-15T00:50:55.709+0000)

He already has enough power to make two champions.

That's an absurdly stupid statement

ZT Xperimentor5 votes

You cannot deny he has 7 abilities. Nidalee and jayce have been nerfed since they could combo with themselves too well. Leesin's nerf was laughable in comparison.

Slythion4 votes

Stop stating your opinions as facts

The actual facts show that the nerfs were indeed very meaningful, so please, stop it with the blatant bias by projecting your false opinions as "facts"

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

The Ms nerf is insignificant

I don't agree.

Lee needs power shifts, not more nerfs.

yeah...

Eedat6 votes

Lee Sin is still the most popular jungler by far.

Lee is always a popular jungler. Even when his winrate is down in the 46% range he is a popular jungler. Even during the Cinderhulk meta he was a popular jungler. Even during Feral Flare meta he was popular.

http://imgur.com/a/u7N5m

At this point if he's not overtuned which you agree he isn't then just let people play him if they want to. Sure, when he's strong his pick rate does go up, but that happens with almost every champ. He's always popular because he's fun to play. Again, not denying he becomes more popular when he's stronger, but there has to be a reason people still pick him even when he's really weak as well. Thats a reason champs with low win rates have high pick rates. Look at other examples like Lucian and Thresh. Both retain high pick rates even if their win rates are bad

What does that say about the jungle? What does that state about the current junglers and meta that a 47% winrate champion is the most popular jungler by far

There are plenty of viable junglers right now. Lee is legit just ALWAYS going to be picked. I don't see an issue with it if his stats aren't out of line. It doesnt mean 'the jungle is unhealthy'. It doesn't mean 'there are no good alternatives'. Just let people pick what they want to pick. Seriously who gives a damn

Avienal5 votes

{quoted}

Even after the nerfs, which did actually reduce his power quite a bit by bringing his winrate down 3%. However, this hasn't changed the fact that he is basically in every game. He's still incredibly popular in competitive.

I'm not advocating more Lee nerfs here. What does that say about the jungle? What does that state about the current junglers and meta that a 47% winrate champion is the most popular jungler by far - it's not even close. Sure, Lee has always been popular but when he's clearly been weak, his popularity has significantly dropped before. And nerfing him clearly isn't going to change that so all we've done is made him weaker when in reality, the issue is largely a problem with the current state of the jungle and meta in general which is largely dictated by the jungle meta anyway.

Lee needs some power shifts in my opinion. But more than anything, this current jungle meta needs to be changed. I think the variety in junglers being rather lacking contributes to that. But most junglers perform pretty decently statistically so the issue is clearly a problem of "sure you could pick x and do well but y exists and can do just as well for half the effort." A conscious effort needs to be made on finding a balance between farming and ganking junglers because we constantly go from farm jungler to gank jungler. And that shit is lame and it impacts the game so much.

Tl;dr

Change jungle, buff other junglers and introduce ways of making more champions viable in the jungle so a sub 50% winrate champion isn't the most popular pick by far in the jungle.

What they really need to do is make Lee sin 'demand' more damage on his abilities (less base and basically make the scaling require bonus AD or more of it to work), get rid of that missing health scaling and just like with Katarina, remove the ability to 'target' wards for his 'target ally champion/unit/war' to jump to and maybe kill the range on how far he knocks back someone with his R since most of the time its used as a abusive 'knock the enemy out from under their turret, Q chase them and nuke them with the laning partner.

If he was made to be a semi-tankie fighter then a full on tank fighter his safety shenigans would be less of a problem since a proper 'nerfing' could force him to not let him dive under turrets and face roll combo your rear and get out with a ward hop. But definitely a removal of the ward hop ability could get him to stop being basically the only champion who buys item 3711 to exploit it to ridiculous levels.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

You have to ALSO recall that when the jungle revamp was still new, Lee Sin was literally (or the one who stood out the most) on being able to go red buff to 'pre-exp nerf' Krugs and instant gain level 3 and then proceed to use that level 3 spike to instant massacre the level 2 players with one of the earliest ganks a jungler can pull off in a lane basically, at least that i know of, which is basically Tank Yasuo and Tank Ekko all over again, champions with insane enough damage to just go beefie and EZ thru the normal obstacles most champions are suppose to be presented with but a champion like Lee'sin EZ's thru it because of his energy cost, freedom to 'build' tankie and 'extra actions' he can pull off on all 3 of his basic abilities.

Eedat2 votes

All his ratios are bonus AD already.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

let him dive under turrets and face roll combo your rear and get out with a ward hop.

so u ask riot to prevent him to dive... lee the... diver Oo

remove the ability to 'target' wards for his 'target ally champion/unit/war' to jump to and maybe kill the range on how far he knocks back someone with his R since most of the time its used as a abusive 'knock the enemy out from under their turret, Q chase them and nuke them with the laning partner.

If u remove his ability to insect, his R become useless.

LegendmakerGX4 votes

It's not his fken damage that's the problem man Riot has a hard time to understand that his kit is beyond overloaded as hell for a jungler and has mobility to boot, wtf kind of range does that Q have he can use it from a far range or close the distance by ward hopping to them for a slow and 100% hit chance for Q.

Let's not forget he wave clear fast because of his damage and life steal + shield in jungle.

Steelflame4 votes

Honestly, I just think his base MS needs to go down a bit more. I'm fine with him having great in combat mobility and power if he pays for it with his out of combat MS, especially in the early game.

cnfqkf4 votes

It just shows that Lee is an attractive champion to play, regardless of the results it incurs.

It's the same with Lucian in most cases too.

Salron3 votes

It's only logical that Lee is a champion more favored by jungle mains when the jungle meta is so gank heavy We need shorter respawn timers and the jungle to not rape you so hard to encourage junglers to spend a little more time farming

TL;DR Revert jungle to Season 6

Sir Yamazuki3 votes

His play rate over the last few patches have dropped by a lot, it's just his pick rate before the steady drop had been insanely high that even after the pretty big drop he's still very popular. Almost 42% down to 28% with second place being at 12.5%.

Cowseed3 votes

Says Lee isn't the problem, the jungle is, and that he doesn't need nerfs.

Immidiately glances over that he says Lee needs power shifts.

People just hate popular champions when they aren't the ones playing them so I'm going to ignore the imminent wave of threads basically suggesting nerfs desguised as 'changes'. He doesn't need more nerfs as his drop in winrate proves.

You just have to make other junglers less shitty to play. Or at least feel that way. I don't believe that the problem with junglers like Graves and Lee are the champions themselves. I think it's the fact that the other junglers kinda feel a bit off to clear with or gank with or other stuff.

Ahristocats3 votes

lee elise every single game

quite diverse

AninLegions7773 votes

I'll say this now. Pay attention. The reason why lee is popular is .... HE IS ACTUALLY FUN TO PLAY!

Just like Yasuo. Just like Zed. He is fun. You feel good hitting Qs. Getting 3 man knockups and the clutch ward escapes. IT. FEELS. GOOD.

I play Amumu. Run around with W. Boring. I play Nunu. Q and E all game. Boring. I play Sejuani. Boring.

Face it. Most jgl champs are binary. Lee switches it up because of his kit. He is not OP. He is just FUN. Get it?!

Thistlemin1 votes

{quoted}

I'll say this now. Pay attention. The reason why lee is popular is .... HE IS ACTUALLY FUN TO PLAY!

Just like Yasuo. Just like Zed. He is fun. You feel good hitting Qs. Getting 3 man knockups and the clutch ward escapes. IT. FEELS. GOOD.

I play Amumu. Run around with W. Boring. I play Nunu. Q and E all game. Boring. I play Sejuani. Boring.

Face it. Most jgl champs are binary. Lee switches it up because of his kit. He is not OP. He is just FUN. Get it?!

He is fun because his kit has 20 more things he can do? Whose point are you proving? Why not give every jungler ward hopping and dashes?

Ever connect the dots on spell Flash being a must have on nearly every champ in every game and Lee Sins unique dash spam walling off other junglers from competitive viability?

His popularity is tied to his free skill spam and dashes all over the map.

Name a jungling champion that currently uses mana that wouldnt be better if they used an energy system.

Name any champ that wouldnt be more Fun and more Popular were they given ward hopping and in n' out dashing as side effects to their current Q and W abilities? My Malphite jungle would dumpster people.

When you think about it in these terms it gets stale that Riot has kept Lee Sin so far above other jger kits for competitive viability. Case in point, as soon as Rioy brings another champ up to Lees level, Zac, what happened? Ban hammer. The problem isnt Lee by himself. Its that when reworkinh and creating champions that Jungle they are not made to have any comoetitive advantages to Lee Sin or even at his level.

Ive mained Warwick since I started. His rework while some enjoy, is a pretty big let down as Riot purposefully kept him uncompetitive with Lee Sin's early game output and threat.

They actually nerfed the hell out of Warwicks duelling.

I dont have a priblem with Lee being fun and useful. I have a problem with Riot not acknowledging his superiority as evidenced by him being a pro player jg crutch and overall user base popularity.

AninLegions7771 votes

Lool nothing with Lee is "free". Spam and you run out of energy. The funny thing you guys don't know is, I would prefer mana on lee/Zed to energy because that shit runs out insanely fast. Regen is also slow AF. So "spammng" as Lee is a myth. You have to get autos in-between to maximize energy regen or you'll be stuck with Q on enemy and no energy to Q again.

Lee is strong early. Falls off late. He is not superior. As OP said, his winrate is 47%. That says a lot. So stop saying "superior" without facts.

Slythion2 votes

Maybe they shouldn't have fucked up the jungle for season 7 for the glory of change

Honestly, give us back season 5 or even season 6 jungle (with either no devourer or a fixed devourer) without the dumbified jungle that we currently have.

wishbone251 votes

ez mechanics

AR URF2 votes

{quoted}

ez mechanics

hahaha.... what?

xelaker1 votes

long as he doesn't blow up a lane easy peasy idgaf if he popular

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Lee is super popular even when he's not that great and that's apparently a problem for some reason. You would think that being massively appealing without being broken would be a sign of excellent design, but I guess not. Let's change Thresh, Lucian, and Ezreal while we're at it since they also manage to maintain their popularity even when they're objectively weak.

Sintama1 votes

I've seen a lot of Brand jungle lately. Turns out, I've been jungling all wrong. All you have to do is kill the jungle faster than it kills you. You don't need sustain or survivability. Burst the jungle minions the same as a minion wave and you're golden.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Most popular, yes.

Still, his popularity is on the decline since his nerfs: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin/jungle/platinum

Also, he doesn't seem to be as strong anymore: lolalytics.com/champion/LeeSin/

He still is played a fair amount, due to him being strong early (gank-heavy meta) and rather broadly appealing. But, as long as his performance reflects that popularity, I don't have as much of a problem with him.

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

Ikr , his pick rate went down ''only'' 9% and his winrate ''only'' 3% . Fun champs will always have high pickrates

Nøstalgia1 votes

I think he'll always be popular cus hes fun,thats basicly it,just like Yasuo,no matter how many times he gets nerfed,you will still see him a lot in blind picks cus hes a fun champ to play I love playing jungle yet what keeps me away from maining the role is theres not at least 3 champions that i really do enjoy in there,i like LeeSin and could one trick him if i played jgl,but other than that,i cant get myself to play any other jungler,especially the meta ones,Ivern,Nunu (not sure he really is meta but he can be pretty strong in the right situations) zac shaco ww,all of these are pretty annoying to me,the only other champion i enjoy playing in the jgl is nida,again cus shes really fun to me,

This is really subjective but i still wanted to give my opinion

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Why play meta ?

Nøstalgia1 votes

Good luck if you wanna climb after D5 with an "exotic pick",cus that pretty much never happens

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Im far from Diamond... but even there many otp don't playing meta. I know some Diamond and told me its just hard after D2-D1 if u play anything other than meta. Thats why Akabane & ninja wukong don't otp when they'r Masta

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Lee is popular because games are short, and are decided very early (<10m). And jungle was nerfed hard (boards asked for this). And other jungle was nerfed too.

Lee was nerfed... true, but he'll stay as an early-mid jungler. Jungler farmer are useless (not enough xp, low income, low pressure...)

riot nerfed summoner 11... but this nerf only impacted already weak jungler

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

Two dashes, two reveals, a slow, acceptable sustain, a shield, and hard CC. An execute. An AS stim. Energy-based.

What is Lee Sin worrying about? One on one, he's probably more stacked than any other champion. As long as he lands Q, his important job is done. It's not the hardest skillshot to dodge, but landing it sets him up like nothing else.

And then, of course, when he's melee and it's off cooldown, you're not really escaping. Because of his AS stim, he can run a bruisy build and enjoy some pretty consistent damage from skills and basics alike.

Now, I don't think he's OP; I think it's a tough thing to argue him being a bit overloaded, though.

I've pretty much sustained that his ward dashes should come off. Punish him for screwing up his dashes, and don't let him just throw wards around like utility. They're vision, not map props.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

He has never dropped below 20% playrate really, even after severe nerfs. He's always been really popular.

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