DFT broke Brand but RoA broke all the champs that use it

ZzEslIolZQ··6 votes·844 views

cause you nerfed every AP item but decided to buff RoA

10 Comments

Big Lincoln2 votes

idk i feel like RoA champs would be dominating if that were the case

Karthus Kassadin Malzahar Swain Ryze aren't particularly oppressive at the moment (maybe Ryze, who knows)

i think it's just an item more accessible to AP mids

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QOncdbfN,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-07T22:07:46.954+0000)

idk i feel like RoA champs would be dominating if that were the case

Karthus Kassadin Malzahar Swain Ryze aren't particularly oppressive at the moment (maybe Ryze, who knows)

i think it's just an item more accessible to AP mids

I guess you didn't notice that Anivia, Malz and Swain all have nerfs on the PBE right now?

Every ROA champ is strong right now and every mage that's getting nerfed next patch is either Brand or an ROA user.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I guess you didn't notice that Anivia, Malz and Swain all have nerfs on the PBE right now?

Every ROA champ is strong right now and every mage that's getting nerfed next patch is either Brand or an ROA user.

All of them have nerfs because of the deathfire mastery. If a champion is fine, even underpowered before a major change to a global system, its probably the global system thats broken.

Also, its stupid to nerf because of a transient change; masteries get changed every season.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

All of them have nerfs because of the deathfire mastery. If a champion is fine, even underpowered before a major change to a global system, its probably the global system thats broken.

Also, its stupid to nerf because of a transient change; masteries get changed every season.

Why they're being nerfed is not something we can know for sure. A ton of things have changed for all of them, so picking one factor as the definite problem is impossible. All I posted is that a bunch of champions who use Rod of Ages are dominating, because that outright contradicted the guy I responded to's assertion that ROA champions weren't dominant.

I mean you only have to think of the mages who are getting nerfed like this: One uses DFT without ROA Three use DFT and ROA

Is 75% of the mages getting nerfed next patch using Rod of Ages seriously coincidence? I really don't think so.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Why they're being nerfed is not something we can know for sure. A ton of things have changed for all of them, so picking one factor as the definite problem is impossible. All I posted is that a bunch of champions who use Rod of Ages are dominating, because that outright contradicted the guy I responded to's assertion that ROA champions weren't dominant.

I mean you only have to think of the mages who are getting nerfed like this: One uses DFT without ROA Three use DFT and ROA

Is 75% of the mages getting nerfed next patch using Rod of Ages seriously coincidence? I really don't think so.

Isnt that causation without correlation or something? I know its a statistics term when you make that kind of extrapalation. All of the people getting nerfed are ALSO people who have heavy DoTs; deathfire essentially adds +50 base damage and 0.5 AP scaling to their DoT. Im not sure what RoA has to do with those kinds of numbers; alone its cool, but combined with other dots which typically have a very high damage maximium compared to burst abilities, it becomes very overbearing.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Isnt that causation without correlation or something? I know its a statistics term when you make that kind of extrapalation. All of the people getting nerfed are ALSO people who have heavy DoTs; deathfire essentially adds +50 base damage and 0.5 AP scaling to their DoT. Im not sure what RoA has to do with those kinds of numbers; alone its cool, but combined with other dots which typically have a very high damage maximium compared to burst abilities, it becomes very overbearing.

It's correlation without causation. My point is that we can't assume causation with any factor - like a billion things changed for mages in the pre-season, so to say "All of them have nerfs because of the deathfire mastery" is ridiculous when it could be any number of things, or a combination of a few. I can't definitely say that ROA is the reason that champions who build it are really strong right now, but nobody can say that the mastery is the problem either. The only champion that we're sure is strong because of DFT is Brand.

Rod of Ages being buffed while both mana regen items received solely nerfs was always going to result in a power shift. None of the ROA mages were bad before the pre-season, so buffing their core item while nerfing the core items of their competitors was a big deal. When something like that has happened, how can you say "It's just the mastery"? When Anivia has way more mana regen than last season because Doran's Ring got buffed massively, can you say "It's just the mastery?".

Honestly I'm pretty certain that the only reason people are blaming the mastery is because it's visible, while the stats an item provides are not. I'm sure a lot of people aren't actually aware that Rod of Ages has more AP than it used to, including a lot of the people complaining about how broken DFT is on here.

There have been big, systematic changes across the board this season. The people campaigning for DFT to be nerfed and champions to be left alone are operating under the assumption that only the mastery changes matter. But that's completely wrong. If you want to avoid nerfing the individual champions then you can consider nerfing a variety of things between items and masteries, but how on Earth do you choose which? It's just more sensible to nerf the problem champions.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

snip

Your assertions would be much more plausible if the RoA champions werent also DoT champions. Cass, Kass and diana were also RoA champions, but none of them have nerfs slated.

Anivia, brand, and malzahar have been off-radar for a very long time and are only occasionally used as counter picks instead of primary picks. The only reason cass isnt up for nerfs is because shes a failure and riot wants to do everything they can to forget about her.

The reason DoT mages are gaining popularity and a "broken" reputation is because deathfire adds so much more damage to them. Lets use malzahar as an example; 「 TOTAL MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 140 / 200 / 260 / 320 (+ 80% AP) 」 (over 4 seconds) 「 TOTAL MAGIC DAMAGE WITH DEATHFIRE: 130 / 190 / 250 / 310 / 370 (+ 130% AP) 」(0ver 4 seconds) +50+0.5AP for 3 seconds after malefic visions ends.

Which of those seems like more of a problem?

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Your assertions would be much more plausible if the RoA champions werent also DoT champions. Cass, Kass and diana were also RoA champions, but none of them have nerfs slated.

Anivia, brand, and malzahar have been off-radar for a very long time and are only occasionally used as counter picks instead of primary picks. The only reason cass isnt up for nerfs is because shes a failure and riot wants to do everything they can to forget about her.

The reason DoT mages are gaining popularity and a "broken" reputation is because deathfire adds so much more damage to them. Lets use malzahar as an example; 「 TOTAL MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 140 / 200 / 260 / 320 (+ 80% AP) 」 (over 4 seconds) 「 TOTAL MAGIC DAMAGE WITH DEATHFIRE: 130 / 190 / 250 / 310 / 370 (+ 130% AP) 」(0ver 4 seconds) +50+0.5AP for 3 seconds after malefic visions ends.

Which of those seems like more of a problem?

I realise that they're all champions with damage over time too, that's why they're using DFT in the first place. But my point is that with them both being DOT champions and liking to build Rod of Ages, it's impossible to pick one specific factor out as the problem. At the end of the day all I know is that while all of the champions getting nerfed use DFT, most of them use ROA too. It's just silly to decide that only the mastery could be impacting when the stats line up like that.

The fact that a variety of ROA champions aren't getting nerfed means nothing because I could bring up way more DFT champions that aren't, too. I mean one of your examples can actually be used to show DFT not breaking every DOT champion - Cass uses Deathfire Touch due to having damage over time, yet does not build Rod of Ages (she builds Seraph's). She's not getting nerfed and remains as terrible as she ever was. The mastery does not actually seem to have buffed her at all, meaning it does not instantly break all champions with damage over time. Zyra does not use Rod of Ages but does use DFT thanks to her huge DPS - not overpowered. Diana doesn't ever build Rod of Ages in either mid or jungle, and Kassadin isn't getting nerfed because his balance situation is virtually impossible to assess - he could be ridiculously broken right now and none of us would know because nobody can play him. Same as Ryze.

I'm aware that DFT adds a lot of damage to long-lasting DOTs, though by my calculations the numbers for Malz's E max out at 331 (+ 113.3% AP) over 5.5 seconds. The numbers look impressive regardless but that doesn't mean much because everyone's combos have gotten stronger with the new masteries. Why shouldn't Malz get big damage buffs to his DOTs when every burst mage/assassin has a new 190 (+ 10% AP) ratio on their combos at level 18, every tank can have 300 more health than they did last season or just 8% damage reduction, supports can give everyone on their team +15% armour and magic resist, etc?

Everyone's been buffed by the masteries they like. Malz, Anivia and Swain are some of the few who've been buffed by their mastery -and- their itemisation.

Big Lincoln2 votes

minor nerfs that don't target anything significant?(afaik anivia's got reverted, too)

they're strong right now, they always have been, but I have not felt overwhelmed by any of these champions due to RoA buffs

if anything DFT has made them more obnoxious because of their dots reapplying extra damage

Anu3isII1 votes

Ummm... How did they make RoA broken? I mean... I still rarely see it , and they buffed it , because only Kassadin builds it almost every game while the other champions prefer the other mana options or just build Tear of the Goddess.

Malzahar is debatable in terms of items.

Brand now prefers damage over sustain (imo).

Ryze isn't that powerful until he gets his Tear stacked (which also delays his RoA) .

Maokai has been nerfed not too long ago.

Lissandra may use it better now , but I still think CDR is too important for her.

Oh , and Morgana doesn't really need it. Many players love RoA on her , but it just makes her more difficult to kill, which is nice, but damage and all in-s help her more than safety.

And maybe Cassiopeia may abuse it more in the late game , but it still requires too much time for her to scale. She doesn't have a great mid-game without the right items , and her late game is already like a time bomb.

And I don't know about Kassadin how much he was affected by his last buff , I haven't played him since the preseason, but I think it kinda made him a bigger threat in the mid-late game, where he actually should shine. Still , I don't know how powerful he is now because most of the champions that are played now have powerful early game and they will try to finish the game before Kassadin can do anything. If he proves to be a problem , he can be easly balanced (again , in my opinion).

Also, there are champions that want health and AP, but they can manage their mana (like Annie). This category can easly buy Rylai's Crystal Scepter for more utility/kiting/chasing potential.

There may be some other champions that I don't really remember now, but if you want to know my opinion about RoA on them , feel free to ask :D

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