The state of AP

SwiftKitten88··65 votes·2,859 views

AP is supposed to be less expensive than AD AD champion starts with base AD... we start with zero AP all champions gain AD per lvl.. we dont gain AP per lvl

champion now gain MR per lvl (i think this was a great change, but it still make ap itemization even worse) blue buff used to give more ap... now its doesn't item 1410 (or rather magus) used to give 80 AP (because they took it away when they gave bluff buff ap)

item 3157 used to give 120 ap and have a 60 second cooldown yet AD only had TWO items to beat it in item 3155 / item 3156 and item 3140 /item 3139 (BOTH of which have actives at half completion) now AD have item 3026 (which we also LOST) and we LOSE abyssal scepter to get a item 3102 to rival out item 3814

item 3116 had 100 AP and 400 HP which is now gutted because it was broken for the champion who could turn was was deigned to be a 1.5 second slow into a permanent slow, and instead of giving it an internal cooldown so they couldn't abuse it.. they screw over everyone to make it worthless for anyone who DIDN'T abuse it

and pretty much every other ap item we have is gated by some means

item 3027 item 3003 are great in their right, however they are late game items in a meta with no late game... item 3070 works becuase of the mana refund so even giving no AP it wise fantasictic, but i feel the rest of the build could be tweaked a little to make it more useful for item 3003 , but at least you can gain stacks with just item 3070 item 3027 is also fantastic state wise.. but the fact that the scaling only starts AFTER you complete the item and not at a partial item like item 3070 has makes it even worse off than item 3003 . completely limiting it to those would would build it first item anyways item 3030 is trash on every ap except arguably 3 item 3146 is great passive wise.. but we dont need and AD on it which make it inefficient for non hybrid champions item 3152 is great for the champions that can use it.. but that isn't everyone item 3089 's price is absurd... item 3115 again.. that's pretty damn niche

i mean item 3100 is FANTASTIC for ap assassins item 3151 was SUPPOSED to be on champions with CC but since it is the ONLY viable AP+ HP option NOT gated by a passive that isn't completely worthless because almost every champion in the game has SOME sort of CC. its pretty much the only AP + HP option

item 3285 is also good but it also overlaps item 1410 in the passive, (which wouldn't be so bad if runic wasn't only 60 AP) item 3135 is still good

we NEED some AP+ HP option with AREN'T gated by a passive only a few champions can use.. we NEED more AP + armor..

and we NEED a higher AP on pretty much EVERY ap item.

and ap item should by default at LEAST have TWENTY more AP than AD because of 5 slots (not counting boots as 6th) and every AD champion has at least 100 AS from BASE ad and scaling alone... while we start at zero and get no ap per lvl. so to even be EVEN with that we need a base 20 more AP on every AD to AP equivalent item

86 Comments

SwiftKitten8820 votes

ap burst champsions are SUPPOSED to kill squishy high priority targets.. THAT'S THEIR ROLE!!!

ap champsions becuase of thier lack of susttain CANNOT kill anything that isnt squishy because of cooldowns. and no auto attack damage (for the most part) certain exceptions like Orianna and Diana can work because of their passive, and Swain has prolonged dps. but for the VAST majority. its all cools downs and your out of the fight.. for more than enough time for anyone to kill you

Dani El Pezglobo11 votes

right now only champs with resets/low cd/ dps are viable

Divewing1 votes

item 3070 Azir item 3070

Targon3 votes

I agree.

Most AP champions should be able to kill squishies like mid mages, ADCs, and supports. The thing is, ADCs are increasingly more difficult to kill as an AP champion (unless you're ridiculously ahead) with how effective their itemization and with how popular shield supports are. And squishy supports aren't even that squishy anymore, with a lot of the enchanter support itemization offering good health and MR.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

ap burst champsions are SUPPOSED to kill squishy high priority targets.. THAT'S THEIR ROLE!!!

ap champsions becuase of thier lack of susttain CANNOT kill anything that isnt squishy because of cooldowns. and no auto attack damage (for the most part) certain exceptions like Orianna and Diana can work because of their passive, and Swain has prolonged dps. but for the VAST majority. its all cools downs and your out of the fight.. for more than enough time for anyone to kill you

Diana and Ori won't be able to kill a tank in a teamfight either. They have DPS, but it takes wayyy too long.

And in a 1v1, almost every mage can argually fight off a tank/diver/juggernaut due to their range, CC, and (now) abundance of CDR.

Not reliably for the diver or juggernaut, but possible.

Ahris17 votes

Riot did not like how APCs were having a lot of ap since with good amount of ap they had a strong mid game. If apc had strong midgame ADC cannot really do much against it, so they changed it so that ap items will give less ap and as result apc does less damage midgame giving room for ADC to "outplay" them.

HeresyHorus38 votes

Where is the "outplay" option against Marksmen Targeted, lifestealing and 0 CD/Resource BpS Crit autos ?! ...

Synnx710 votes

About the BPS part. I think this game is the only game that introduced BPS in the gaming. I really hope no other game addopts BPS. Its fucking bullshit

sir d wreck2 votes

Sorry for the possibly stupid question, but what is BPS?

morris17 votes

burst per second (basically almost every carry nowadays can kill squishies in 2 seconds and tanks in ~6)

Synnx71 votes

Burst per second

Melledoneus2 votes

"Git gud"

-Rhino Games

An Undead brat11 votes

Oh right, so when should be APs strong according to you? Don't tell me you think they are better in late game than Marksmen...

Rito specifically siad they want APs to be at their strongest in the midgame, so there goes your opinion.

Ahris10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QG45m3T8,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-09-09T09:58:29.076+0000)

Oh right, so when should be APs strong according to you? Don't tellmeou think they are better in late game than Marksmen...

Rito specifically siad they want APs to be at their strongest in the midgame, so there goes your opinion.

But marksman are strong in all phase of the game.

An Undead brat2 votes

Welcome to Rito.

ganggoink1 votes

Depends on the adc

Velzard of Koz2 votes

It's questionable how far this is his opinion, since he just tried interpret what Riot aimed to do.

An Undead brat2 votes

Well what I said is literally what they said, I don't know what other way you would like to interpret that (also I don't agree with that philosophy, but what can I do).

ZT Xperimentor6 votes

APC used to mean something, before riot gutted mages by nerfing nearly their entire itemization in the 'update'. Marksmen always had a few anti-mage items, but next to no-one built them because critical hits & lifesteal were better, and still are although riot overbuffed their items in preseason six.

WalkingInACircle6 votes

They've nerfed basically every strong AP mid laner too. Teams are right to put adcs mid as well as bot.

XxfirepulsexX17 votes

I agree that the moment the ''mage update'' came out, most ap midlaners got screwed over. Ap scales worse then AD AND we get les ap then b4 from the items? Right, first dfg, then mana pots, then ap item nerfs and then you also remove spelvamp just becouse of this lame ass vampire. how about you just make vlad not be able to benefit of spelvamp instead?

Sure banshee buf is realy nice, it offers a good counter against the mages that solely focus on burst only like syndra and kat so you wont get killed in the blink of an eye. morel buf was nesesary since with the removal of mp pots we can cast 5 spels and then become useles.

As it stands now, ad is simply better couse of stronger and cheaper itemization.

When adc go solo mid or top it should be enough evidence that something is wrong.

Draden14 votes

I love the argument, it was killing adcs so we have to nerf ALL AP items. Nice job, wonder why most bans are AD champs, you see adcs in solo lanes.

HeresyHorus12 votes

Have u seen TSM vs Immortals ?

Lucian Corki banned or picked mid every game, always wining at least their lanes against any Mage.

PePsiLemoNN3 votes

Corki isn't even an adc anymore.

DracosKasu7 votes

Corki is still an adc, his dmg still came from ad item but transfer into magic dmg.

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

ADC = Attack damage carry. How is he an ADC if most of his damage is magic in the end?

RavenMagus6 votes

He builds attack damage.

Doing magic damage isn't what makes you a mage. Corki builds and plays like an ADC.

Cryptocurrency2 votes

He used adc as an synonym for markmen. Look KogMaw is no Attack Damage Carry aswell more like a On-Hit Carry so whatever.

AirKingNeo5 votes

Sure, except the AP armor option, that would ruin AP assasins.

Also you have to nerf Morello and Lost Chapter to compensate. Still overall net buff, but no more broken 1 item powerspike with the rest of the items shitty is still a good thing.

Oh, and give Blue Buff it's 2 AP per level back, or give Runic Echos +5 AP and nerf Elise. Probably the former.

An Undead brat12 votes

Sure, except the AP armor option, that would ruin AP assasins.

That doesn't make sence, why would it ruin them? Because mages could counterbuild their magic damage with armor while not sacrificing AP?

Also Morello is not broken, it's the only good item comparable to AD items - the rest is not not broken, the rest is a dogshit.

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

Morello is broken. Massively. But mage mains don't care being the best-second best class since ever. Y'all should just start maining bruisers or AD champs and tell me again how bad APs are.

GrReaper964 votes

item 3170 would be a good item to get

AirKingNeo3 votes

It's got too little AP to break mages. It's more of a AP fighter item, which would make it fine.

Mogarl5 votes

too bad item 3145 is off limits too most mages. Riot sunk a significant amount of ap itemization power into these, and then ended up with them being so niche that 95% of mages can't build and use them efficiently.

item 3030 along with having a short range slow firing active it also gives a little more health and less ap than item 3027. The real fatal flaw with it is that it's still only useful to those that can build item 3010 which is already a minority of mages. Then also limits it to people that can make use of a short range slow firing active.

item 3152 Used by Ekko and some other ap bruisers. Since the Item is really only good if you want to be in melee range. So it's competing for attention with the same people you would expect to buy item 3010.

item 3146 at least this one almost appeals to a separate group in ap assassins. However many of the champions that use these are once again, the same. many champions that build this one would happily build item 3152.

3/16 ap items are directed specifically towards maybe 10(out of 33+) champions. This wouldn't be a problem if many of the other AP items weren't also directed at very small groups of champions item 3100 item 3040 item 3115 item 3116 item 3027 item 3030 item 3152 item 3146.

Half of AP itemization is only viable to less than half of APs.

item 3102 item 3285 item 3089 item 3135 item 3157 item 3020 item 3151 item 3165 Burst mages specifically need to have their itemization looked at. Power should probably be pulled off Morelo and moved to other options. Liandry should be made a coherent item. Ludens should be better at being Ludens. Stuff like that.

PePsiLemoNN3 votes

AP is supposed to be less expensive than AD

Since when? wtf

Radiant Seraph16 votes

Since AD scales miles better than AP.

Yalathanil8 votes

And AD directly results in stronger AA's, along with scaling on skills. AP usually has poor scaling and no affect on AA stregth. AD =! AP

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

Not like mages deal bonus damage to towers based on their AP or something , have you not played this game for 3 seasons? If you actually believe AP has poor scalings ... k then xd

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

lol but mages dont have a lot of attack speed in the first place and all adcs and almost every ad champion takes towers faster then mages who arent named Ziggs

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

Oh hey mages don't take towers as fast as ADC's .. wow.

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

well mages besides being CC bots and in some cases the only ones who can kill adcs with burst after all the ad assassins got nerfed what else can mages do better then adc at?if you want CC bots just play pure tanks Sejuani Maokai Amumu you want burst? just get another adc to do it Corki Lucian lol

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

They do that thing called ''magic damage'' that , belive it or not , is very useful.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

well magic damage was good till everyone and their mother got mr per level not to mention riot gave ways to counter magic item 3194 shuts down people like Cassiopeia Brand Azir AurelionSol Anivia also Mages have very little magic pen options while ad's have a lot more

GrReaper962 votes

Surely you realised at least how item 1058 gives more AP than item 1038 gives AD by now........

Frightning2 votes

Most AD ratios are also higher than AP ratios on similar abilities, a more meaningful comparison would be to look at actually damage gained v. gold cost for similar abilities.

GrReaper961 votes

I mean thats EXACTLY why AP is cheaper than AD. To balance out the damage/gold. Im talking about direct price not gold efficiency. That would be an entirely different argument.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

item 1058 cost more and takes up space in inventory till you can buy its big item item 1038 lets you build into items better since you can get it faster

Somebody Love Me4 votes

Also item 1058 only builds into item 3089 item 3285 item 3040 which are all bad/niche right now, meanwhile item 1038 builds into item 3031 item 3508 item 3072 item 3026 which are all good in their own right.

item 1058 items are expensive and have worse build paths, while item 1038 items are much cheaper and have much better build paths.

Yalathanil1 votes

Here is an equation: AP =! AD. Just as you can't compare apples and oranges, you can't compare AP and AD. Characters who rely on AP are reliant on skills for their damage. AD is focused on AA's, but the champions have AD scaling on their skills.

GrReaper961 votes

Im talking about direct price not gold efficiency. That would be an entirely different argument.

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