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I have a bone to pick with some of you top laners

MonkeyMadness··2 votes·1,106 views

So I'm seeing a lot of top laners opt into ignite instead of teleport lately (not sure if this is a new meta or what). Can't say that I much like it, but if that extra kill potential wins you the lane, then I certainly won't complain. However, and this is the issue I'm having, STOP FUCKING TRYING TO SPLIT PUSH WITHOUT TELEPORT. You can't. You simply cannot. I just lost two straight promotion games in for plat 4 (so this is not some low elo cluster fuck, we know what we're doing here), and in both of them our top laner (wukong in the first and jax in the second) would CONSISTENTLY roam top to push the lane into the enemy tower, leaving us to fight 4v5, or giving the enemy top laner (who was running teleport) free reign of bot lane, causing us to either concede towers or further split up our team. If you want that extra killing power, then USE it. That's up to 410 extra true damage. That is more than enough to turn the tide of a fight, but if you aren't there to fight with your team, why the hell are you running the spell at all?

Like I said, if you want to run ignite over smite then I suppose that's your prerogative, but if you are causing your team to lose the game because you can't/won't adapt your playstyle to this new spell, then you need to stop running it.

24 Comments

Arcus Diabolus3 votes

How does would tele solve that problem? If I'm pushing up into their turrets and they are not coming up to stop me, then thats all the more reason I should continue pushing until I force someone to come to me.

The only thing Tele and by extension Shen's ult provides in terms of split pushing is forcing opponents into a lose/lose scenario by jumping to the team who SHOULD be trying to threaten a team fight at Dragon, Baron or some other objective when someone comes up to try and stop you. The instant someone shows up, you jump to your team and proceed to engage in a 5v4 or possibly even a 5v3 team fight.

So in essesnce, the enemy team has to chose between losing towers or losing objectives and possibly a team fight.

But if they start split pushing in turn, I fail to understand how thats the top laner's fault for not taking tele. If anything, team fights are now 4v4s and one person from each team is pushing. This is even, or possibly even to our advantage since I've already been working on pushing and he only just started, which makes defending your tower that much easier. Absolute worst case, the opponent doesn't split and its a 4v5 that you should not be fighting. Just don't do it. Keep them busy, but do not let them engage on you.

Tl;Dr: Taking tele does not solve the issue you are having. It only improves the effectiveness of split pushing.

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFHfVlem,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-08-31T04:22:56.175+0000)

How does would tele solve that problem? If I'm pushing up into their turrets and they are not coming up to stop me, then thats all the more reason I should continue pushing until I force someone to come to me.

The only thing Tele and by extension Shen's ult provides in terms of split pushing is forcing opponents into a lose/lose scenario by jumping to the team who SHOULD be trying to threaten a team fight at Dragon, Baron or some other objective when someone comes up to try and stop you. The instant someone shows up, you jump to your team and proceed to engage in a 5v4 or possibly even a 5v3 team fight.

So in essesnce, the enemy team has to chose between losing towers or losing objectives and possibly a team fight.

But if they start split pushing in turn, I fail to understand how thats the top laner's fault for not taking tele. If anything, team fights are now 4v4s and one person from each team is pushing. This is even, or possibly even to our advantage since I've already been working on pushing and he only just started, which makes defending your tower that much easier. Absolute worst case, the opponent doesn't split and its a 4v5 that you should not be fighting. Just don't do it. Keep them busy, but do not let them engage on you.

Tl;Dr: Taking tele does not solve the issue you are having. It only improves the effectiveness of split pushing.

the reason you take teleport while split pushing is to eliminate the issue of a 4v5 and can respond to objectives or pressure potential fights. Unless your team is designed to HAVE a top lane island, like a nasus comp is, then you should never not take teleport as a splitpusher.

TheOvermind2 votes

The only time the splitpusher would ever have to tp to "eliminate the issue of 4v5" would be if the enemies are at your inhib, in which case you shouldn't be splitpushing in he first place. If they are not threatening inhibitors , then your splitpusher is free to push down his lane fast and get any objectives he can. Meanwhile you should :

  • be warding carefully as four, and keeping waves pushed if you have no vision of the enemy and ensure you are ready to get a tower, drag , baron should they send people to deal with your splitpusher

  • ensure no one gets caught and be ready to disengage any initiation attempts if you have vision of the enemy team and they are grouped and pushing a lane, while you try and delay their push by poking them and clearing waves.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

I can't believe that I've only found one person on these forums that agrees with me. I thought this was common knowledge, especially in gold+...

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I can't believe that I've only found one person on these forums that agrees with me. I thought this was common knowledge, especially in gold+...

it IS. But you have to understand all those bronze-silvers with very little mechanical knowledge? theyre all gold-diamond now due to legal boosting. One of my buddies on a different forum is a plat 1 in promos and has literally said "I need people. try not to die, and ill play a carry. i need 4 supports basically and ill carry you from bronze to diamond".

dynamic queue is the absolute worst thing riot could have done... theres so many people in ranks they shouldnt be in and games are a 50/50 split to whether you get put on the team with more smurfs. even players like redmercy are experiencing this new "stomp or flop" matchmaking thats been happening in the lower ranks because you have all these players with not enough mechanical knowledge and/or skill to have naturally gotten TO their rank.

"boosted animal" has never been a more appropriate phrase...

MonkeyMadness1 votes

It's ridiculous though. People are trying to tell me shit like "deadman's plate give you enough mobility to split push freely" and someone even said that zz'rot would solve the problem (which is entirely counter intuitive given how the item works). I don't know if I just got incredibly better than the rest of the community in the past year, or if boosting really is this prevalent.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

It's ridiculous though. People are trying to tell me shit like "deadman's plate give you enough mobility to split push freely" and someone even said that zz'rot would solve the problem (which is entirely counter intuitive given how the item works). I don't know if I just got incredibly better than the rest of the community in the past year, or if boosting really is this prevalent.

boosting is really this prevalent. Also garen buddy knows his stuff, hes been around the block a few times.

He has points; deadmans combined with zzrot DOES give you a better split. But its short range; you wont be capable of responding to team fights that occur far away, so you would be splitting the nearest tower while your allies are getting an objective or setting up for one.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

O ya ofc. But when the enemy team is seiging mid lane and you split pusher is at top inner tower without tp, your're fucked.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

No, this is wrong. Teleport can be used to join a teamfight that breaks out while you are split pushing. It can also be used to escape a bad situation if you see the enemy team is mia (and likely about to gank you). Also, and this was the important point here, if the enemy team has a teleporter and you don't, and you try to splitpush, it's almost certain to end badly for you. The amount of teleport plays that you can make when the opposing team doesn't have a tp is just ridiculous. Also, to make it even worse, the enemy team had a GP in one of those games. So what happened a couple times was our jax went top to push, gp went bot. The enemy team forced us into a fight, and gp just laid down his ult. Jax obviously did nothing for us, but because we were forced to take at least some damage from the gp ult, it was effectively a 4v5 for us, AND the gp was pushing anyways. In short, they won the fight, and they at least tied us in objectives. GG, nothing we can do, and it is 100% on our "split pusher" in this case.

Axe2Handle3 votes

Learn to play with an ignite top lane splitpusher. If you cant hold a tower 4v5 then your team comp is the problem. A fed Jax needs at least 2 people to deal with him meaning if they deal with Jax then its a 4v3 on objectives. If they leave Jax alone its a 4v5 but if you can stall the Objective then Jax is taking an Inhib.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

He wasn't fed, and any reasonable late game team can dive a tower 5v4. Towers do absolutely nothing right now, unless you are fail to trade aggro on the laser towers (ie nexus and inhib towers). Also, please read, the enemy team had a teleporter, and in that jax game it was a gp. So basically, jax was at all times getting out split pushed AND they have a 5v4 (sometimes gp would just ult and keep pushing). Every fight ended with them securing at least twice as many objectives as our jax could get.

TheOvermind2 votes

You are absolutely wrong here . A lot of splitpushers take other ss over tp and can splitpush just as effectively. (Heard of Shaco , rengar , udyr and master yi ? ) It's pretty straight forward If they have no one to come stop you 1v1 and go for a relentless push down mid 4v5. Then it's up to the rest of the team to ensure no one gets caught, waves are cleared as fast as possible, they poke as much as they can, and should they ever need to , disengage any collapses.

This is usually where it all goes wrong however, the amount of people that get caught in sieging situations in solo queue is astoundingly high. It's usually they who let down the team in the 1-4-0 scenario and then proceed to flame their splitpusher for never grouping . Like why ? Should he be there to make the impending fight after your careless death more even (5v5) ? Chances are that isn't going to happen since the fight started with you being caught In The first place .

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Read the 2 examples I gave. Obviously if your champ has built in mobility that can get you back to the team quickly then sure, go for it. But this was a jax and a wukong.

the amount of people that get caught in sieging situations in solo queue is astoundingly high. It's usually they who let down the team in the 1-4-0 scenario and then proceed to flame their splitpusher for never grouping . Like why ? Should he be there to make the impending fight after your careless death more even (5v5) ? Chances are that isn't going to happen since the fight started with you being caught In The first place .

Your statement precludes that the enemy team would have engage regardless. On the contrary, the reason that they enemy team "catches" people is because they know they can take a ridiculously aggressive stance, as any fight that breaks out will be 5v4 in their favor. When 4 people on the team are abiding by one strategy and then the 5th is off doing his/her own thing, it's the rogue player's fault 99% of the time.

TequilaZombie1 votes

I play almost exclusively as a split pusher. Most of the times, things go south when my team decides to push for a contested objective by themselves before part of the enemy team comes for me, making someone get picked and putting us in a disadvantage.

PhDs Nuts1 votes

I've literally never seen that this season. I've seen Ghost/Flash top more recently, but not Ignite.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Ya idk what's going in but I've been seeing it quite a bit lately.

A Basic Island1 votes

ignite over smite wat

is smite top back?

MonkeyMadness1 votes

No, and hopefully it never does. As much as I like creative use of summoner spells, that meta was just a blatant abuse of the incredibly stat efficient jungle items.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

STOP FUCKING TRYING TO SPLIT PUSH WITHOUT TELEPORT. You can't. You simply cannot.

item 3512 item 3742

say what again?

after the nerf to tp, pulling off ganks with the summoner has become hard. i switched back to iginite aswell, since the kill pressure it offers is more valuable than the map control of tp.

a lot of the time the enemy will be forced to blow his tp only to get back to lane after you traded with him with ignite or ideally killed him.

winning lane can allow you to put up enough map pressure to counter the enemys tp, while at the same time its easier to get fed off kills.

of course this isnt true for every champion, but in cases of champions with bad ganks, ignite can be more useful.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Yes, I understand the value of ignite. But you addressed in way the issue of people that run ignite but play like they have teleport. Unless your champion has some kind of massive mobility spell (shen, rek, tf, panth, tahm, etc) there is NO way that split pushing will end well for your team, ESPECIALLY if the enemy team has tp. In the cases I described in op, the game was very even, meaning that a 4v5 was utterly unwinnable. Not to mention, the fact that they enemy team did have a teleport in both cases meant that they could out split push us 100%, AND create favorable teamfights for themselves.

Also, zz'rot portal is WAY past its prime. I'm not sure if you are actually lvl 10 or if you are just on a smurf. If the latter, then please understand that while zz'rot may be a good item for creating split push opportunities by making massive waves, it does NOTHING to help the split pusher get back to the teamfight. Not to mention, if you do put down a zz'rot, you shouldn't really be away from your team anyways. The beauty of the item is that it will passively push a lane without wasting the manpower. As for deadman's plate, the marginal speed boost of this item will not get you anywhere in time. A teamfight will last about 10 maybe 15 seconds. DMP will simply not get you there in time.

Now, if you actually are level 10, please stop commenting on this post. These are higher level strats being discussed, and if you haven't even unlocked the summoner spells I'm discussing then please just don't pretend you understand their use.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I understand the value of ignite. But you addressed in way the issue of people that run ignite but play like they have teleport. Unless your champion has some kind of massive mobility spell (shen, rek, tf, panth, tahm, etc) there is NO way that split pushing will end well for your team, ESPECIALLY if the enemy team has tp. In the cases I described in op, the game was very even, meaning that a 4v5 was utterly unwinnable. Not to mention, the fact that they enemy team did have a teleport in both cases meant that they could out split push us 100%, AND create favorable teamfights for themselves.

Also, zz'rot portal is WAY past its prime. I'm not sure if you are actually lvl 10 or if you are just on a smurf. If the latter, then please understand that while zz'rot may be a good item for creating split push opportunities by making massive waves, it does NOTHING to help the split pusher get back to the teamfight. Not to mention, if you do put down a zz'rot, you shouldn't really be away from your team anyways. The beauty of the item is that it will passively push a lane without wasting the manpower. As for deadman's plate, the marginal speed boost of this item will not get you anywhere in time. A teamfight will last about 10 maybe 15 seconds. DMP will simply not get you there in time.

Now, if you actually are level 10, please stop commenting on this post. These are higher level strats being discussed, and if you haven't even unlocked the summoner spells I'm discussing then please just don't pretend you understand their use.

but it was exactly what i was getting at with the portal.

you can create map pressure passively and counter the enemies split push via teleport by putting it down in another lane and grouping with your team.

if done right, it can even force out a teleport from your opponent while youre grouped.

and dead mans plate is still incredibly helpful when it comes to roaming. its not as fast as teleport, but can allow you in a lot of cases to quickly start a slow push in one lane and be back with your team in midlane before a big fight.

its also important that teleport has a rather decent cooldown, and when it is forced out on the enemy, dead mans is actually a great tool to split push and create map pressure.

i recently won a game against an udyr/shaco teamcomp with teleport who where trying to splitpush, by countering their split push with proper use of zz rot and dead mans. i allowed my team to win 3 v 4 teamfights, while i managed to force out their teleports and delay their splitpush on my own.

now if they had built into zz rot themselves, things would probably have turned out different. so i admit in this case it was pretty risky not to pick up tp, but if youe not facing a heavy splitpush teamcomp you can compensate with proper itemization and macro play.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

and dead mans plate is still incredibly helpful when it comes to roaming

roaming =/= split pushing. not even remotely.

Here's a basic fact that you need to know. If you force your team to fight 4v5, you will lose the game with nearly 100% certainty, UNLESS you are way ahead and your team can manage a 4v5. But the higher up in elo you go (I'm plat) the harder it is to do this.

Again, you also blatantly ignored this fact. Ignite is only functional if you are using it to kill people. If you are trying to split push, you are categorically NOT trying to kill people. Done. Use the spell properly, or don't run it at all.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

Seems to work for Voyboy, and he's a far better player than you or anyone in this thread, and plays with better players too.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

Link me a game where he runs ignite on an immobile champ (one that lacks global mobility) where he split pushes and leaves his team to defend a seige 4v5 at their inner/inhib towers. You will fail in this task.

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