After worlds, will there be work done on JUNGLE catch-up experience ?

Kyunsei··36 votes·3,698 views
https://i.imgur.com/uFsyfDV.png

Actually the catch-up experience kick in if you got less level than the jungle monster you kill, said level is equal (On spawn only) to the average level of the 10 champions in the game, rounded up. The said catch-up experience value though, is completely stupid. You get 30 flat experience per jungle monster killed. This, guys, is gigantic number until level ~11 or even higher.

That mean that your jungler level = enemy jungler level, no matter what. If not, that mean 2 things : Either one of the jungler never clear krugs/raptor, as they will basically grant you a level if you're behind. Or you're very late in the game, around level 14 ~ 18, where 30 experience isn't enough to keep up level against someone with twice as farm as you.

Actually, it also provides utility champion as well as tank champion a better proficiency in the jungle, as clearing speed isn't great with this catch-up experience, as the more level you get, the more experience you give to your enemy jungler.

a % increase instead of a flat value would be great, or at least anything done that doesn't punish you for not ganking. Successful gank should grant you more exp and gold, or at least team-wise, than farming. But unsuccessful gank shouldn't be rewarded with extra exp in the jungle.

EDIT : Adding some talk with our beloved Meddler speaking about potential (jungle) Catch-up exp change :

From Meddler, answering a question about jungle Catch-up exp :

**Looking at XP flow's on our list of stuff to consider for pre-season. **Seems to be a particularly hot topic on Boards/Reddit at present, it's not the sort of thing we'd want to change during the season unless absolutely necessary though and definitely don't think it's at that point.

From Meddler, original post of 4th august QGT :

As we get closer to pre-season we're also starting to look at what smaller non runes projects we might also include. Should be able to expect some more talk about that in a month or so, with tweaks to some systems like starting items, possibly income systems etc possible. Details not yet certain, we're still figuring out how much work we should be trying to take on in addition to Runes, which things are most in need and which sorts of change it's most appropriate, or inappropriate, to do at the same time Runes go out.

EDIT 2 : Relevant video about Catch-up experience, beware 1 hour video : https://youtu.be/smtagi5PqGg

42 Comments

ModCaptainMårvelous20 votes

I feel like if work has to be done anywhere, it's the raptor camp.

The krugs can stay as "the catch-up camp" because they're often out of the way and a chore to do. Make them the camp you take when you're so far behind and getting ruined that you have to go somewhere. (It also means counter-jungling has a big red mark to keep enemies down or go in for further kills).

But right now, raptors are such a strong camp (and easy to take) that they trivialize things. Maybe it's just me but after 1-2 raptor camps you're basically all caught up.

DorkunedAuras2 votes

IMO, Krugs giving 10 "procs" of the catchup XP is still a bit much, but I agree with your points otherwise.

Salson13 votes

I find this whole Jungle situation to be fucked up.

Laners consider the S7 Jungle to be extremely oppressive, but some high elo people like Tarzaned complain that Jungle can't hard carry.

It's just gank, gank, gank, drake, gank. Like they wanted pro play to stop being boring so they gave junglers insane early game, no matter how oppressive that is for normal players. Oh look, you survived the gank and took 2/3 of junglers hp while loosing 1/3. Nope, they full heal of Scuttle and a plant and gank you again.

And then they notice that the healing Jungle, the overpowered red buff and drake control take a large share of their power budget, and they are forced to be a secondary support.

I really wish they fired whoever thought of this.

Kyunsei1 votes

{quoted}

I find this whole Jungle situation to be fucked up.

Laners consider the S7 Jungle to be extremely oppressive, but some high elo people like Tarzaned complain that Jungle can't hard carry.

It's just gank, gank, gank, drake, gank. Like they wanted pro play to stop being boring so they gave junglers insane early game, no matter how oppressive that is for normal players. Oh look, you survived the gank and took 2/3 of junglers hp while loosing 1/3. Nope, they full heal of Scuttle and a plant and gank you again.

And then they notice that the healing Jungle, the overpowered red buff and drake control take a large share of their power budget, and they are forced to be a secondary support.

I really wish they fired whoever thought of this.

Basically 3 things so.

  1. Jungle catch-up experience should be tuned down/removed in profit of point 3).
  2. Plants respawn rate/number of blasting plant should be tuned down.
  3. Experience of jungler monster should increase over time/based on monster level, to enable jungler to keep-up in level, but not through biased mechanism and enable a jungler who farm better than his opponent jungler to have level lead.
Salson1 votes

Agreed.

  1. Jungle catch-up experience should be tuned down/removed in profit of point 3).

Personally, I would leave it for large monsters, a larger shift could unbalance the system hard.

Another point is the return of baby reds and blues. A Jungler who decides to gift Blue to his midlaner should not be denied the whole exp/gold of a camp.

Kyunsei1 votes

{quoted}

Agreed.

Personally, I would leave it for large monsters, a larger shift could unbalance the system hard.

Another point is the return of baby reds and blues. A Jungler who decides to gift Blue to his midlaner should not be denied the whole exp/gold of a camp.

Yeah, but by the way letting it only for large monster nearly means removing catch-up experience as there's 6 large monsters and 16 small monsters. Or instead of a flat +30 per level differential, a +50% experience increase, to be evenly split between base exp of large/small monster. EDIT2 : or a +50 flat per level differential, but only for large monster.

EDIT : As for Blue and Red, they could cut by half the experience/gold they give and split this on other jungle camp. First red/blue buff of a game would give double exp.

AirKingNeo4 votes

Relevant: Catchup XP and tanks are dumb, with Hashinshin, Tarzaned, and Silas Kroeger. https://youtu.be/smtagi5PqGg

Salson1 votes

Hash is my spirit animal, the avatar born from the salt energy of every toplaner who was ever ganked.

Rip Rengo 20164 votes

I honestly switched roles, Jungle is so stressful to play now. You can get way more gold and XP mid/top even if you are feeding a little.

Handy Sandy 3 votes

how the hell do they have 200 farm and the score isn't like 20-24

CHEESYLEEKS17 votes

Thats what most close competitive games look like.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Thats what most close competitive games look like.

yup. near perfect CS.

Danjeng28 votes

Also, competitive players practice an advanced technique known as not dying.

ZyniX24 votes

The rare ability to tell yourself "nah, it's not worth it".

LOSINGISMYPRIDE2 votes

but dying is the best cc .

Lauchmelder6 votes

Killing is the best CC, dying is considered a self-suppression.

Fefnil7 votes

But it's also a free recall.

masterdomlo4 votes

but that recall takes 5-70 sec (from lvl 1-18)

Glory ln Death1 votes

It's instant in early levels with Sion. And significantly reduced at higher levels.

Natake3 votes

But recall is already free.

Glory ln Death2 votes

Nope. It costs 8 seconds.

CHEESYLEEKS1 votes

But it comes with a free frogurt

Thats good!

Glory ln Death1 votes

Dying is a power-up.

Sasogwa3 votes

The catchup experience being flat makes no sense. It heavily favours krugs/raptors for no reason, it should be percentage

Kyunsei1 votes

{quoted}

The catchup experience being flat makes no sense. It heavily favours krugs/raptors for no reason, it should be percentage

You got it my friend, keep it up !

EDIT : For those who don't follow Meddler QGT, and following answer, here are context : From Meddler, answering a question about jungle Catch-up exp : **Looking at XP flow's on our list of stuff to consider for pre-season. **Seems to be a particularly hot topic on Boards/Reddit at present, it's not the sort of thing we'd want to change during the season unless absolutely necessary though and definitely don't think it's at that point. From Meddler, original 4th august QGT : As we get closer to pre-season we're also starting to look at what smaller non runes projects we might also include. Should be able to expect some more talk about that in a month or so, with tweaks to some systems like starting items, possibly income systems etc possible. Details not yet certain, we're still figuring out how much work we should be trying to take on in addition to Runes, which things are most in need and which sorts of change it's most appropriate, or inappropriate, to do at the same time Runes go out.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

so just a silly question

nunu had 3 asst how much experience is an asst worth ?

DrCyanide2 votes

It varies depending on how many people assisted. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_(champion)

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

ok true... and not only that he gained gold from the asst as well... so that could off set some of the gold from the lack of cs as well.

im not arguing the system currently is good or bad... im all for improvement at the game but most of the times the ideas arent really objectively thought out... and might be bias

in part i think the system is set up the way it is so you arent hamstringed for ganking and not power farming like a lee vs shyvanna for example or if you do go and gank and create pressure that even if you miss gold from jungle when you go back into jungle you are able to stay up to level with most of the roles in the game so you dont fall of and become less effective

taking all of this consideration when thinking about FIXING the problem

Kyunsei1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QF98HmN4,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-08-04T03:49:26.738+0000)

ok true... and not only that he gained gold from the asst as well... so that could off set some of the gold from the lack of cs as well.

im not arguing the system currently is good or bad... im all for improvement at the game but most of the times the ideas arent really objectively thought out... and might be bias

in part i think the system is set up the way it is so you arent hamstringed for ganking and not power farming like a lee vs shyvanna for example or if you do go and gank and create pressure that even if you miss gold from jungle when you go back into jungle you are able to stay up to level with most of the roles in the game so you dont fall of and become less effective

taking all of this consideration when thinking about FIXING the problem

A system like league work every time of the year 7/7 24/24. But a system can favor some champion over others, actually the more time goes, the more you'll see really early game jungler perform well (elise, gragas, rek'sai, J4, lee sin) high damage champ, CC or high mobility to great gank value and can go tank/support late game.

You have to know as well that you are rewarded for not clearing camp often, as you will fall behind in level and get insane amount of bonus experience, basically catch-up is good, but the value is out-of-the-line.

Anyways, without this catch-up mechanic you won't even be able to keep-up in experience compared to laner, even by powerfarming you don't get enough exp to not gain benefit from catch-up, sometimes a camp will grant you extra exp, only one or two time as you will directly hit the average level, but that render powerfarming useless except for gold.

Well powerfarming isn't really an healthy mechanic, so that's quite good, but the fact that even by doing so you need catch-up to keep up prove of the absurdity of the current system.

invisiblecat11 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_(champion) It depends on a lot, but 3 assists is not enough to grant one level unless the nunu was at like level 1 (when he got the assists) and the enemies were at like level 15

Oriyoki2 votes

Who said Nunu wasn't leaching EXP off lanes?

Kyunsei1 votes

{quoted}

Who said Nunu wasn't leaching EXP off lanes?

He doesn't need to get exp from lane, just the ketchup is enough.

maliohammad1 votes

the catchup exp in lower lvls is strong , but later on , leaching lanes will give much more xp than the 30 per monster

Terchio2 votes

I say it's actually the other way around. No way Rek got 160 monsters and he's only level 12. He farmed other lanes, probably with allies in lane. That minion/monster number only tells half the story.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/iLMv2kLV-pbe-jungle-notes-notes-on-updated-jungle-for-622?comment=00080000

Farming the jungle all day is not and should not get you ahead. Either gank, or counterjungle. I've been 2-3 levels ahead of the enemy jungler easily by just poaching all of their camps whenever I can. Then they go and try to gank, it doesn't go well and they're left with nothing but wasted time.

Unsuccessful ganks are only punished if the enemy jungler is skilled enough to capitalize on it. As it should be. If one jungler is just PVEing in his own jungle all game long, no, he's not going to get very far ahead.

Kyunsei2 votes

Farming should get you ahead in experience of the enemy jungler if said enemy jungler waste 2 minutes top and don't get kill/assist and you cleared your whole jungle/enemy jungle during this time, but it only grants you level 4 for a moment and enable him to catch-up to 4 as well.

Powerfarming is bad, I agree. But if powerfarming was idiotic, I could say the same as perma-ganking. Well at least that's champion interaction so that's a little better, but League always has been a PVE/PVP game, I feel that for the first 15 minutes of the game, a jungler as very little to gain from PVE, as he will be heavily rewarded by catch-up experience if he ganks often.

EDIT : as in your case, you effectively can get ahead early if you totally stop the enemy jungler to get his camp to catch-up, but it often means an heavy stomp in your favor (as you completely take control of his jungle, either by your own actions or by team effort), that's great but I'm pretty sure every enemy will be lower level in this kind of game, so does it mean catch-up exp isn't problematic ? I'm not sure.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Riot has given gankers item 3341 , a targeted movement speed steal item 3706 , removed the ability to buy wards, and created new champions like Zac (gank from any angle), Kayn (walk through any wall), RekSai (mobility throughout the jungle) and Elise (tower dive all day and then become untargetable for 0 mana).

Riot wants perma-ganking to be the primary strategy.

Kyunsei2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QF98HmN4,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-08-04T14:13:48.220+0000)

Riot has given gankers item 3341 , a targeted movement speed steal item 3706 , removed the ability to buy wards, and created new champions like Zac (gank from any angle), Kayn (walk through any wall), RekSai (mobility throughout the jungle) and Elise (tower dive all day and then become untargetable for 0 mana).

Riot wants perma-ganking to be the primary strategy.

It seems clear to me that they wanted that, and as I said before it is healthier than powerfarming. But few things need to be noted here :

  1. You could already gank and dominate a lane/jungle side by ganking before, today you simply doesn't get punished as you used to be before.
  2. Riot removed powerfarming item, will powerfarming really be and oppresive strategy if they get catch-up exp in the line ? Can't tell for sure but I don't think so.
  3. With a smoother catch-up, gank would need to be smarter and clear speed would become more meaningful.

And again, it is out-of the line for Raptor and krugs only. Nothing intuitive tells you : Hey, those camps are great to get back exp, they have respawn rate and exp accordingly. No, it is a flat 30 per level down upon the monster you slain, no matter if the said monster gives 7(mini krugs), 15(small raptor) or 250(Red/Blue/Gromp) exp.

The Yetii Rider1 votes
  1. Yes, it is. That's why they said they're suppressing it as a strategy. It doesn't matter if there's no Feral Flare left in the game, if Master Yi just farms up an Infinity Edge and a Bloodthirster with 0 interaction from any other champion on the map then comes out and kills everyone, that's not something Riot wants to support.

We have Graves and Kindred in the jungle as well. If powerfarming is a good strategy, then it will become the dominant strategy because there's no way you can fuck it up.

maliohammad1 votes

I tried playing graves in a normal game , and get screwed over by a failed gank and tons of invade of the enemy graves . and the catchup xp didn't help at all , since he will come again and again to invade me (no one rotates to stop him ) so I was always 2-3 lvls behind him .

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Is that from the assist exp? Also how many objectives did Nunu get? Like he has a ton of farm, but I am higher level then enemy janglers often.

The Deckowner1 votes

Or you know, they could just set a flat value per level for each camp and evenly split that value to each small monster.

More from Gameplay

More by Kyunsei