Please educate me because back in the day, didn't assassins have certain drawback such as poor waveclear, not great of a poke and minimal escapes once they go all in?! Why does Zed get to have all that and so much more?! The only thing keeping him in check right now is Zhonyas.
SmokingPuffin77 votesPlease educate me because back in the day, didn't assassins have certain drawback such as poor waveclear, not great of a poke and minimal escapes once they go all in?!
Generally, no, those are not traditional assassin weaknesses.
He is pretty healthy, as far as assassins go. You get a lot of windup on his assassination combo to plan your defense. He can juke and be juked. He's not overbearingly strong in any phase of the game. You can more effectively itemize against him than most assassins. Note that "healthy" is not a term about power level; it's quite possible for a champion to be healthy and OP, or healthy and UP.
Zed might be OP. I'm honestly not sure. He's quite good, but mostly I just think we're seeing the effects of Chalice nerf. Everybody wants to play something without a mana bar, and nobody wants to play the waveclear mages that were keeping Zed in check before.
SerBlaise10 votesThis is an excellent analysis. Personally I do think he is overpowered and that his ult is exceptionally safe and doesn't leave any room to counterplay. I really agree with what you said about diana though.
Guy Fox Teemo5 votesSo why didn't we see these hundred posts before when zed was exactly the same? (Except for the ult change AWHILE back)
SaltyKracka3 votes...We did. Like, Zed was dominating the game for most of season 3 and a significant part of season 4.
Onegarion2 votesnot just zed tho but most assassins were the thing especially around season 3 worlds. They got hit pretty hard with a boost of exhaust, but after they changed it they came back just as strong.
rinsujo25 votesThis, ladies and gents, is how you disagree with someone effectively. This right here. Someone get this man a cookie.
RiotMeddler33 votesAgreed, nice post SmokingPuffin.
One other point I'll add in is that Zed's also got noticeable windows of significantly lower threat, given his primary kill pattern includes his ultimate which is on a 120/100/80 second cooldown. A lot of other assassins have much shorter periods of lower effectiveness (e.g. Akali, Le Blanc, Kassadin, Katarina on average, Diana) which means they're not paying as meaningful a cost to try for a kill.
Fed by Snu Snu24 votes80 seconds before cooldown reduction is called a significant window now?
I think something is wrong there if that's what a meaningful window of opportunity is considered nowadays for the game.
Half of that time is the respawn time and another 1/4 is walking out of the base.
I'm feeling highly uncomfortable and uneasy about future changes to the game if such a small amount of time is considered a significant window in the thought process behind game design.
RiotMeddler27 votesYes, I'd argue it is a significant window. 80s, even when reduced by CDR, is long enough that you're not going to get to use it twice in a teamfight. It's also long enough that, if it gets used ineffectively, the enemy team can force an objective while it's still down (and for the vast majority of the game it's 120 or 100 seconds too). By comparison a lot of assassins have windows in the 30-15s range for their ults which are much harder to capitalize on.
Fluppets29 votesI think alot of frustration with Zed is the range in which he can return to his Ult shadow.
It allows him to dive extremely deep and return safely regardless of what you do. In a way it is counter-intuitive, while you want to get away from the the threat, if you cover a long distance when being ulted and then try to kite him, it increases the escape range for Zed and thus, the safety for Zed.
Decrease the Range on his ult shadow return, maybe add an indicator ala Orianna's E or place a shared cooldown on his shadow return between W and R.
I think you're missing the point with Zed (and same goes for Akali and Lee Sin) rather than a balance issue there is alot of frustration involved. Regardless of what you do you are being "outplayed" by their insane mobility. There is mechanical skill, there is creativity and experience but at the end of the day you can't outplay them if you dont have the same tools.
**Frustration only exists in the space where you are powerless. **
I am not frustrated by the volume of my TV, I can turn it down. I do get frustrated by the volume of my TV when I lost the remote, I've lost control. It is this feeling of loss of control that Zed, Akali and Lee Sin exert on other players, so they come on the forums and complain, not always (including myself) with the right attitude or correct analysis.
It's upto you to sniff out this frustration, where it's coming from and how it's changing the discussion.
Thryale5 votesI have to agree. The problem with zed isn't his burst dmg, or his windows of opportunity (altho, I will say, the cd on his ult is rather low, and thus rather annoying) but rather, it's his insane safety.
Hardly any assassin has the safety that zed has. LB has a double dash and un-dash blink, but she sacrifices her stronger burst combo to do so. Same goes for her wave clear, she makes a conscious sacrifice by choosing to wave clear with her gap closer. Zed does not need to make such sacrifices. Same goes for fizz, if fizz want's wave clear, he sacrifices his mobility, and thus his safety, giving windows of time where he can actually be engaged on.
Zed, however, never needs to use his shadow to farm, thus if he so desires, he can always hold on to it in his pocket for an escape. And like you mentioned, his ult becomes safer the more his opponent tries to kite him.
An assassin with safety and huge burst is never fun to fight against, because it leaves you with no recourse when they go in other than hoping you survive or hoping you have a ton of hard cc.
YOU BEEN WARNED12 votesMeddler, Zed is not completely reliant on his ult to do work. His W zones a lot in fights with no cost whatsoever. Then again he could head to a different lane once he's blown his ult to split push since he's the only AD assassin capable of split pushing effectively due to reliable costless escape & 
's 45s CD.
Blowing Zed's ult sort of reduces head-on combat strength (assuming it somehow failed,) but so long he has waveclear and mobility that won't be significant.
Fed by Snu Snu19 votesIn order to argue that it can't be used twice in a teamfight as a weakness, you'd also have to argue whether it needs to be used twice in a teamfight. Which I doubt it does, because I haven't seen a 4v5 being won without some serious herpaderp from someone for a long time now.
Also, those assassins you mentioned that have windows in the range of 30s or 15s are mostly AP champions, which means they have a plethora of weaknesses that Zed doesn't have. Most notable, being ridiculously bad at taking down towers, something that Zed does within a single creep wave as soon as he has a botrk.
If not that, then they have bad harass or bad wave clear.
Zed has all of them.
I don't want to sound offensive, but it really feels like you are sugar coating Zed too much.
Champion Skin16 votesAlso AP assassins will likely deal a lot less sustained damage... if their burst doesn't kill you... then you are fine
If Zed's burst is on cooldown or you survived he can punch you to death with his auto attacks since he has lots of AD and there is also his passive, Active which he often has as it's cooldown is rather short
Raynor11113 votesSomething else worth noting: There is almost no way to build defensive stats against an AD Assassin without sacrificing some of your crackback. The only items that give both offensive stats and Armor are 
Zhonya's Hourglass and 
Iceborn Gauntlet (A large portion of which is wasted on any manaless champions), while against an AP Mage, 
Abyssal Scepter, 
Athene's, 
Maw, 
Wit's End, and 
Scimitar all provide offensive stats, as well as Magic Resist.
Ashes Arise1 votesNice to see reds not submitting to this nonsensical hate train. I remember Riven and Vayne being raged about constantly for no good reason in the past. They weren't nerfed and people aren't complaining about them anymore. As someone who has seen these cycles all the time, I can easily tell that it is only a phase that was created by a drastic meta shift.
Captain Aishi9 votesthe problem with zed's assassination combo is that it's completely instantaneous against squishy champions a late game zed presses R on you, and if you don't have a dash ability to maybe dodge the shuriken, you will take 2500 damage (before armor) as soon as he appears next to you, almost 3k damage if he lands a second autoattack whereas akali, leblanc, katarina and diana can have their combos interrupted by CC (katarina during her ult channel, the other ones during their gapclosing (weaknesses that zed does not have))
I also find it very poor design when a champion can easily assassinate someone while missing over 50% of the damage his kit has to offer
Hellioning7 votesIs that Zed's weakness? That his abilities have cooldowns? Because I really can't think of anything else...
Is his weakness 'we are not all Faker'? Because I'm tired of seeing him in every game.
Rikari7 votesHowever...
He can outrange mages. His free W+Q can match Syndra's Q+E. Other MELEE Champions,and assassins too with epic 100-0 trade potential get poked via range hard,like 
Melee champions need to be outranged.
This epic outrange is free. yes,energy is free and regenerates quickly.
He has an INSANE escape. When he sets his W and ults you,it follows you and you have to burn your gap close when he starts attacking and he will still get retreat back to his W. The distance can go from across the river to the gromp to the red buff(same side). no one should be able to do that. I'm pretty sure Zed's buy lifesteal,so though its not natural,people get pissed by his unreal sustain.
DarkenedSoul4204 votesGood points but most assassins also have to use an ability that is part of their combo to escape where as zed can do his full combo and just press r to be completely safe again. I think all assassins are op when they get to snowball though, zed is just the lee sin of assassins.
SmokingPuffin2 votesI do think Zed is too frustratingly safe. I would generally approve changes to his R like:
Something to force Zed to pay a cost if he gets himself into a tight spot. This may require compensation buffs elsewhere and I'm totally fine with that.
DarkenedSoul4204 votesI would rather them not even let him go back to his ult shadow and just reset his shadow upon ulting. Then he can still do that living shadow into ult and gets a fair amount of safety by being able to use his shadow again right after but not so much that he can flash completely out of your screen right after his combo is done
RedCyclone30 votesOP is so silly
They didn't mean healthy for the game They meant he is physically healthy
He eats his veg He exercises regularly and he play videogames for a maximum of 1 hour a day
But in the league he is full blown pancreatic cancer
Drunk Rummate17 votesA lot of Zed's burst damage is backloaded into his ult. He has to stick around for ~3 seconds to deal his full burst which gives the person being assassinated time for counterplay.
Compared to say, Talon, who ults in and kills you in 0.5 seconds with zero opportunity to escape built in his kit, I'd say that Zed is far better designed as a champion because he gives both players options rather than simply removing options for both players.
He's obviously overpowered from a numerical standpoint, but the design philosophy behind his kit is much better than many other assassins. He's healthy in that sense.
Raja Chachki3 votesNo, just cause a Talon recently beat you(assuming that is why you are so sour) does not mean he can do all that. If Talon jumps on you, just Zhonya's. The same could be said for Zed. However it still doesn't change the fact that Zed can just switch back to his shadow with ease in case his ult goes wrong. Talon is in, whether he likes it or not, and he either ults for ms, or he just has to try to fight and die.
Drunk Rummate17 votes[{quoted}](name=Hudson Gaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEiictYA,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-01-15T15:06:21.688+0000)
No, just cause a Talon recently beat you(assuming that is why you are so sour) does not mean he can do all that. If Talon jumps on you, just Zhonya's. The same could be said for Zed. However it still doesn't change the fact that Zed can just switch back to his shadow with ease in case his ult goes wrong. Talon is in, whether he likes it or not, and he either ults for ms, or he just has to try to fight and die.
What? I crushed that Talon so badly that I didn't even need to buy Zhonyas lol. I mentioned him because he's an AD assassin like Zed.
Design-wise Zed is healthier than Talon because theoretically Zed has to stick around to deal a lot of his burst damage while Talon's kit can just instantly burst you. The problem right now is that Zed has so many free stats that he doesn't actually have to stick around to finish you off in a lot of cases, so from a tuning perspective he's got too much. Design wise he's fairly healthy though.
Knight Devout6 votesDesign-wise, I agree with you, but stat wise the amount of damage he can get "upfront" when coming out of shadows with death mark is off the scale. I mean, sure, if the damage was more "autoattack" oriented it would be as you said, but as it stands Zed can put in the bank a lot of damage with Shadow Shuriken+Mimicked Shuriken+Shadow Slash+Botrk active the same istant he comes out of shadows. So if you get out of Zed melee range just a small fraction of time later you still take massive damage, enough to kill a squishy in midgame.
qetzel6 votesBut that is about balance, or tuning rather than overall game health. Champions that are not healthy include Yorick, for obvious reasons (lane) and Poppy, for obvious reasons (Deals a lot of damage, can't really be killed with the passive and the ultimate).
Knight Devout1 votesYes, I agree, that's exactly what I wanted to say. Zed has a good design, but due to game tuning he results excessive, easy farm, fall back patterns, etc.
But those things are usually tied to each other. For example, a Fed Zed obliterates squishy, so if you don't feed him you are fine, right? Wrong, easy farm, easy clear , splitpush potential. This could create a scenario where Zed does indeed gets countered right, but he doesn't actually fall back because power in his kit allows him to overcome that weakness (i.e. bridge the gold gap of missed kills with massive farm).
qetzel3 votesHowever, Riot have frequently stated that they like fall-back patterns AND that they dislike hard counters.
The ideal assassin snowballs when ahead, but not as hard as Zed does now, and can get back in the game, but maybe not as well as Zed can now.
My interpretation of the patch notes is that they are going to remove the AD on his W. This will prevent his split-pushing (normally a fall-back rather than the best situation for Zed) from being so strong while lowering the potential he has for snowballing. He will probably require compensation buffs if they do this (25% of his damage late game is a lot... almost 25% anyway).
Raja Chachki4 votesNow that I agree with. He is given too much. In a lot of cases the Zed could just ult me at 6(I am somewhat low from his fucking poke), E, maybe Q, then dash back to shadow for the EZ kill. That is the kind of play that I dislike.
Junkο4 votesUnlike Akali he actually put effort into aiming his abilties Unlike Akali or Kat, he has no resets Unlike Akali, Talon and Kat he doesn't burst instantly, it's over 3 seconds allowing you plenty of time to react unless you feed him He doesn't snowball as hard as Akali or Kat because of 0 resets and single target burst
iainB8515 votes[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEiictYA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-01-15T16:14:45.357+0000)
Unlike Akali he actually put effort into aiming his abilties Unlike Akali or Kat, he has no resets Unlike Akali, Talon and Kat he doesn't burst instantly, it's over 3 seconds allowing you plenty of time to react unless you feed him He doesn't snowball as hard as Akali or Kat because of 0 resets and single target burst
However, Unlike Akali or Kat, he scales with AD and AS, making him an excellent off pusher / tower killer.
Even while Talon scales with AD, AS is not as useful on him and his escape is far worse, so he's a vastly inferior split pusher as well.
It's not just Zed's assassination power that makes him OP. It's the fact that he has one of the safest lanes, one of the easiest times farming, and can double as one of the best split pushers in the game, ON TOP of being one of the best assassins that puts him over the top.
Junkο4 votesTalon is actually is actually a better splitpusher than Zed. He also has a waveclear spell, but Talon also buys Hydra, a splitpushing item by default. He also most often buys Youmuu since Black Cleaver is useless atm. On top of having a spell that can damage turrets on a fairly low CD.
I won't deny that Zed is really safe atm though, but that's how kit was made, there really is no way to nerf his safety in lane without nerfing him at other things too.
iainB853 votes[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEiictYA,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-01-15T16:27:00.354+0000)
Talon is actually is actually a better splitpusher than Zed. He also has a waveclear spell, but Talon also buys Hydra, a splitpushing item by default. He also most often buys Youmuu since Black Cleaver is useless atm. On top of having a spell that can damage turrets on a fairly low CD.
I won't deny that Zed is really safe atm though, but that's how kit was made, there really is no way to nerf his safety in lane without nerfing him at other things too.
Split pushing isn't all about wave clear though, Zed can just walk up, activate his , and jack your tower almost instantly. Talon takes considerably longer.
Plus, Talon can TRY to use his ultimate as an escape but sweeper/pink counters that, and he can only go so far... while Zed can hop and escape out of juts about any situation, still making him vastly superior IMO.
forist1 votesZed is a much better and safer split pusher than talon. There's no real debate in that. While zed benefits from attack speed, talon must build cdr, attack damage, and lifesteal/aoe to be effective. So he really can't compare in the split-pushing department. The fact that zed doesn't even need to build hydra to quickly clear waves should be your first clue that he is much better suited for split-pushing than a champ that has to build hydra to clear waves.
Lord Graves III2 votesWhy does Talon need CDR more than Zed? They both build roughly the same amount of CDR. They build Youmuus.
Zed is a better split pusher because Zed is just a stronger single target champion. Zed is allowed to be stronger than talon because Zed is harder to play (By miles) and doesn't have Talon's AOE damage.
But blaming Talon's build vs Zed's is just silly.
Talon can use attack speed just as much as Zed does. Talon just usually doesn't need it and would prefer more raw attack damage. Saying Talon builds more Lifesteal than Zed is also sorta unfair.
Zed needs nerfed, but his core play pattern is somewhat healthier than Talons at the core.
forist4 votesWhy does Talon need CDR more than Zed? They both build roughly the same amount of CDR. They build Youmuus.
His cooldowns are longer so he needs to build more cdr in order to use his skills more often. He's an ad caster who relies heavily on his spells for damage not auto-attacks like zed can because of his passive. Talon also sometime's builds black cleaver and boots of lucidity as well. I would build even more cdr items if there were any other good cdr items for ad champions.
Zed is a better split pusher because Zed is just a stronger single target champion. Zed is allowed to be stronger than talon because Zed is harder to play (By miles) and doesn't have Talon's AOE damage.
Zed is better at split-pushing because he can build attack damage and attack speed, and is better at killing single targets. He has the same number of aoe spells as talon, and a champion's skill cap does not validate making the champion's kit better. Despite that, I disagree with this. Talon is much harder to play, because he simply cannot do all the same things zed can. He can't adapt to his lane opponent well or even outplay someone who has the advantage. I play both champion and I find zed much easier to play, because he's just a better champion.
But blaming Talon's build vs Zed's is just silly.
No one is blaming talon's build, I am simply stating that talon can't afford to build the same way as zed does, so his split-pushing suffers. Once again, I said that talon has to build hydra to even keep up with zed's wave-clear, how can you possibly argue that a champ who needs an item to be on par with another one is better at something?
Talon can use attack speed just as much as Zed does. Talon just usually doesn't need it and would prefer more raw attack damage.
I hope you actually try to play talon one day. That'll be the day that you understand that this simply isn't true. Zed benefits from attack speed because his passive gives him extra damage on auto attacks, his mobility allows him to stay in range for said auto-atttacks, and his ult acts multiplicatively on all his damage during a short duration, so the more auto's/spells you can dish out, the heavier it hits. Talon has none of these benefits.
Saying Talon builds more Lifesteal than Zed is also sorta unfair.
Never said he needs/builds more lifesteal, just said that it is a requirement on talon.
Zed needs nerfed, but his core play pattern is somewhat healthier than Talons at the core.
I disagree, because nothing you have said has any merit. You obviously don't play both of the champs, because you know so little about one of them. Maybe, if you weren't so focused on trying to prove what I said was wrong, and actually had good examples I might believe this last statement, but you don't and your points are ignorant.
Hawkefire2 votesUhhhhh.....Zed doesn't scale with attack speed....like at all.
The only reason, and I do mean ONLY reason, Zed builds a Botrk is for the ACTIVE.
Youmuus is build for the Armor Pen and movement speed boost (mostly for the armor pen)
Zed usually doesn't autoattack more than 3 times if he pulls his burst combo off correctly.
There are 3 things Zed scales with (in order of favorableness) Armor Pen AD CDR
Champion Skin2 votesWell actually Attack speed will likely help Zed quite a bit if he is in a duel or in a scenario where he can auto attack since his auto attacks can hit really hard with the whole 30% increased bonus AD and especially so if it get's "amplified" by his ult Though yes it certainly isn't the most helpful for his burst
Ashes Arise2 votesI would also argue that he is the most well designed pure assassin champion in the game.
I would classify the following champions as pure assassins, and I will give a reason/s why I feel they aren't designed as well as Zed. I'm not calling these champions unbalanced or OP. I'm just stating why I feel Zed is better designed, and should be rewarded for it.
-Akali I don't need to go into detail on this one. Pretty universally agreed that she is one of the worst designed champs in the game. From the synergy of over the top spellvamp and heavy stealth to being un-kiteable due to R
-Evelynn Constantly being nerfed to unviablility because of the lack of counter play. Her nearly infinite stealth allows her to pass by wards and sneak up on people a little too well. When she does ambush a person she has very strong chase and misleading escape. Chasing an Evelynn is very similar to chasing a singed. She can damage you with hatespikes by spamming it during her escape, and can turn on you with nearly unparalleled chase.
-Fizz Massive aoe damage and one of the highest bursts in the game (Veigar exists). Extreme mobility, burst and high sustained damage. He is also one of the most difficult champions in the game to attack even in meelee range. He has no stealth, but does that really even matter with this champion?
-Kassadin R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R R
-Katarina Oh dear god. The Queen of aoe assassination. When I hear the term "assassin" I picture someone quickly taking out a single target. This champion can assassinate an entire team. Her resets give her power in ways that it shouldn't. There are situations where 1 person can easily duel her but the presence of a squishier team mate can put the odds in her favor instead of the other team. It is really strange that there are situations in most games where she has a better chance of going 1v3+ than she does in a 1v1 against one of the same champions.
-LeBlanc LeBitch
-Shaco The King of deception and stealth. This champion laughs in the face of Riot's philosophy on clarity. His entire kit is based on destroying clarity.
-Talon His single target assassination has the least counterplay attached to it of any other assassinate in the game. Not to mention his initiate and escape are even beyond Zed's That is pretty much it. Rengar used to be a close 2nd, but since his rework he can be viably played closer to a bruiser. This is why I'm leaving Rengar off this list.
Remember, I'm not saying I have a problem with these assassins. I'm merely showing how Zed is the most well designed champion in the role that has most of the worst designed champions in the game.
In the end, Zed is a single target assassin, without stealth, that has very well established counter play. He can be frustrating to play against, but that is because of his role. It isn't because his individual champion design.
ChargeItDownMid2 votes[deleted]
Ashes Arise1 votesI didn't say the other assassins were weaker. I said Zed deserves his spot as one of the strongest due to being well designed.
Subject 52 votesWhen you say well designed, i am just thinking that you mean "overloaded." Because overloaded kits are just . . . well, overloaded. If you have more toys you usually have the tendency to have more options :P
Ashes Arise2 votesI don't see how Zed's kit could be considered overloaded. Isn't that term attributed to champions who have 2-3 effects on every ability? Zed's passive Q and E do 1 thing, and W R have 2 effects that could be argued to be more like 1.5 effects since they have to be used in conjunction with Q and E to access the 2ndary effect.
Zed used 2 buttons to do 1 thing. Lee sin uses mose of his single buttons to do 2-3 things. This is why he is considered overloaded. I don't see how this term makes sense attached to Zed.
Being a strong pick in the current meta doesn't mean there is something wrong with his kit. At best they should just revert his recent W buff for now.
ChargeItDownMid5 votes[deleted]
Ashes Arise1 votesDon't quote a single word from my sentence, and add to it out of context. I said "one of the strongest" not "strongest". Competitive games will always have a pool of champions that are considered viable, and a pool of champions that are less than viable. If you don't understand why, then I apologize. The people always demanding that all champions be just as viable as the next simply don't understand the intricacies of balance. Even if it can be done, it shouldn't be done. The last thing anyone wants is a game with all champions being homogenized clones with only insignificant differences. All I'm saying is that Zed deserves to be one of the 5 or so viable assassins. He has a fun kit that is strong, while maintaining more counterplay than any other assassin.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
Ashes Arise2 votesCounterplay has everything to do with deciding game balance. Champions like Irelia, Poppy, Evelynn, and Olaf have been specifically named to have too little counterplay to be allowed to be competitively viable. Counterplay is directly used as a qualifier having enough power to be viable. It isn't the only one, but it certainly is a big one. Also Dota 2 is no where near as balanced as league is. The disparity between their stronger and weaker champions is massive. They also hold a philosophy that allots the more difficult champions a higher power budget than easier champions.
