Changes to ADC items are in a backwards direction

AirKingNeo··2 votes·3,233 views

First off, IE builds out of two 1300 gold items that have no components and costs a massive 3700 gold (1100 to combine into). This feels shitty to build. You can't even build it first because of the doubled crit, leaving ADCs to change builds from BF -> Zeal -> IE _Zeal Upgraded to BF -> Zeal -> Zeal Upgraded -> IE, which is a lot worse as flat AD is much better early. It should be the old build path with its 3400 cost and should reduce the true damage convert to 10-15% (probably 12%).

But there are more issues. People have done the math and figured out that with 20% true damage convert, ADCs deal more damage to targets above 125 armor, less damage to those under 125. But marksmen items have gotten a huge cost increase, which brings me to my next point.

They're just making marksmen's damage take longer to come online. That's not fun for anyone. It sucks for the marksmen player because their character isn't really playable until their damage comes online. It sucks for everyone else because once their damage does come online, nothing really changed and we're back to the same low interactivity.

There's no item that gives Crit and CDR. What are Sivir, and more specifically Xayah supposed to go 1st item? I can see Sivir taking up the new Essence Reaver and Xayah just reverting back to her BoRK -> Cleaver build she did on release. The new Essence Reaver just kinda sucks in design because it only works on people who can use their ults offensively, like Sivir/Ashe. It's much harder to use on Xayah. Jhin can't even use the item. I don't know how to fix this version of the item.

Stormrazor should be ranged only. It looks like an item for assassins, not marksmen. I personally don't think assassins need another Duskblade.

The Last Whisper changes are my big part and I think Riot is overtunning the numbers drastically. Assassins were already compensated for losing Last Whisper before by gaining Duskblade and other assassin itemization. Giving them the same Last Whisper is just going to break everything. It should be 20% total armor pen on both Mortal and LDR, and give LDR some effect.

Changing BoRK with cost reduction is just going to lead us to the same exact issue we had last time BoRK's cost was this low. People praised the PBE change that made the onhit damage 6.5% for ranged. That change should go on and the lifesteal should also be reverted back to 15%.

Considering Last Whisper is being reverted, Black Cleaver should be reverted to 30% armor pen. Bruisers who use Cleaver suck right now; even Fiora is building Trinity instead. Give it the clause Wit's End has for ranged if you're worried about Lucian/MF.

Given my suggestion to IE, Zeal items could stand to be 2700 (Live: 2600, PBE: 2800) just because it would otherwise feel pretty shitty to build Crit and a BoRK meta would be forced.

Overall the changes to Crit items make marksmen unfun to play and unfun to play against once they reach their spike. The spike should be smoothened out to make the experience greater for everyone. I don't want ADCs to be stupidly powerful, but I also would like ADCs to be fun to play at least.

EDIT: Also none of the changes are attempting to fix Rageblade ADCs which are a bit overtunned, especially Varus.

48 Comments

Vid the Strange5 votes

{quoted}

First off, IE builds out of two 1300 gold items that have no components and costs a massive 3700 gold (1100 to combine into). This feels shitty to build.

item 3089 says hi.

Also, making scaling champions take longer to scale is kinda the point. Would you rather they not scale at all and games take twice as long because neither side can breach the other's defenses? Or they scale too fast and other classes lose their agency on the game?

Marksmen have to scale at some point. It just happens too fast currently, so of course they're dialing it back.

AirKingNeo1 votes

why should every marksmen be a scaling champion while no class is like this at all?

Kaioko1 votes

Those who want to scale early now have the options of cheaper effective items like BT and BTRK along with the new stormrazor and to some extent ER (though I totally agree with you on the thought process that ER is too niched).

MrHaZeYo3 votes

Lol, aww the ADC overlords are going to have to adapt like the rest of the world.

The IE changes are needed, and now it becomes like it's AP counterpart (Deathcap). It still is going to be almost a better item over Deathcap, it needs it's true damage to be dropped to 10-15% like you said while keeping it's cost price on PBE.

They're just making marksmen's damage take longer to come online. That's not fun for anyone.

It's not fun for every non ADC who have to deal with ADCs hitting their power spikes way earlier then they should be.

These changes are step in the right direction, but I think more needs to be done.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Lol, aww the ADC overlords are going to have to adapt like the rest of the world.

You're biased beyond belief so no one should really take you seriously.

It's not fun for every non ADC who have to deal with ADCs hitting their power spikes way earlier then they should be.

Re-read the statement at the end.

"Overall the changes to Crit items make marksmen unfun to play and unfun to play against once they reach their spike. The spike should be smoothened out to make the experience greater for everyone. I don't want ADCs to be stupidly powerful, but I also would like ADCs to be fun to play at least."

Maybe ADCs get an early powerspike and in return don't powerspike as hard?

MrHaZeYo2 votes

The problem is it your logic that is bias. Your role is finally getting hit like it should of long ago. I enjoy ADC, shit my 2nd most played champion is a ADC (Cait), That doesn't stop it from being the end all be all role. A good ADC with a confident team can hard carry games, it's hard to say that about any other class.

ADCs should carry games, but they shouldn't come online until 3-4 items, that's the cost to be the hard carry. Mages and Bruisers hold games down until the AD is ready to shine, that is how it once was and should be again. ADs like Lucian do get early powerspikes, and he still will with the new ER, but he has to pay the price of a delayed end game spike.

ADs shouldn't be powerhouses early game, because they are meant to be end game champions.

So please get out of her with this bias crap you like to spout towards me, because I have no problem with how ADs should be, I have a problem with how they are currently.

https://imgur.com/bwimkvL

It's not like I don't play ADCs, so stop with this bias crap [sg-ahri-2]

Pika Fox3 votes

"Lol, aww the ADC overlords are going to have to adapt like the rest of the world."

Im just gunna go ahead and say that if you dont want the reply to point you out as being biased, probably dont make it sound like you are.

The points he made were valid arguments. Correct ones? Dont know, but they did have merit to them. ADCs havnt been overtuned or the end all be all role, they just seem like they are because theyre literally the only role that can actually end the game. Thats not the ADCs fault, or them having "too much damage". Thats literally how the MOBA genre has been since its creation, how LoL has always been. Nothings changed.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Well, one it's more of a him and me thing, if you haven't seen our posts towards each other over the years, you wouldn't understand.

Two, If the ADCs are the only one who can end the game, wouldn't that maybe signify that they may be overtuned? I personally think Supports being buffed year after year lead to this, Bot lane together needs nerfed, not just ADs or Supports.

Mages, Assassins, and Bruisers used to be able carry games and be the champions the team could rally around, but that has long been torn down. The better ADC and Support will generally decide the outcomes of games anymore.

Pika Fox1 votes

ADCs being the game enders arent them being overtuned, its that defense is far better than offense, so you stack all your objective taking damage onto one person you protect with the other 4. Spreading your damage out doesnt work as well because CC is the great equalizer and if you get CCd and dont live through it, your damage output is 0.

All of them carry in different ways. ADCs take objectives, Mages provide AoE damage and mild CC, Bruisers deal consistent damage as well as take a punishment, Tanks provide lesser consistent damage, take more of a punishment and generally have a high amount of CC of varying qualities. If ADCs were overtuned, youd see 5 ADC teamcomps.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

No if ADCs were overtuned you'd see 3 tanks, a Mage, and a ADC ( which is what we often see). Whether the Mage is Mid or support and tank is Support or Mid is kind of irrelevant. Tanks create meat shields and CC for their ADCs to shine.

When ADs and Supps aren't as overbearing we see other classes rise up from the ashes.

I'm not saying ADs shouldn't be hyper carries, because they should be, but their power shouldn't turn on until 3-4 items. Mages and Bruisers and to a lesser extent Assassins should be holding the fort down mid game for the ADs to scale.

Which is excatly what these changes are doing.

Pika Fox1 votes

Thats.... literally not what youd see if ADs were overtuned. If they were overtuned youd see them outclass other classes elsewhere. The only time youd see something else is if they were severely undertuned, in which case youd see AP mids running full AD itemization.

And these changes arent doing exactly that; theyre giving the ADC class more options more than anything so you see a proper dichotomy of both early and late game ADCs instead of just late game ADCs. Theyll still have a build path that works with 2 items, but sacrifices 3-4 item damage, as well as the crit build that works at 3-4 items, which will lead to more variety in the ADCs played as theyve seriously needed more build paths and options for quite some time.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

No, that is what you would see lol, AD being overtuned, still need people to protect them, which is what tanks, white mages, and mages in general do.

You're right, they will have a build path that works with 2 items, but it won't be nearly as powerful as it is now, which slows their scaling down, does it not?

Lucian and Draven will become the premier mid game powerhouse ADs again while Cait and friends will need to wait awhile before they become monsters.

Pika Fox1 votes

No, the 2 item build is going to be as powerful. It would have to be for early game ADCs to work, else youd just get the 3-4 item build path be priority.

And if ADCs were overtuned youd literally see them taking over other roles. Range and self peel would do more than enough to invalidate other roles protecting them if they were really as broken as people want to exclaim. Fact of the matter is they simply arent and werent, people just need something to complain about every patch. Next patch will likely be assassins, then maybe it will be tanks again!

MrHaZeYo1 votes

They will be powerful on those whose kits work with them, not so much on the ones who want to scale, I said that though.

And no, They can't self peel a Mao with a Jinx behind him. They still need help. If you stopped and actually thought about it, you'd see.

Pika Fox1 votes

Plenty of ADCs can self peel a mao if need be, xayah being an example. If ADCs were overtuned to the point where they were crowding out other picks and winning the game on their own as you claim, then youd see ADC comps with multiple ADCs (being 3+).

makkii1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAJQsE86,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-04T01:56:29.314+0000)

Plenty of ADCs can self peel a mao if need be, xayah being an example. If ADCs were overtuned to the point where they were crowding out other picks and winning the game on their own as you claim, then youd see ADC comps with multiple ADCs (being 3+).

That does not happen for a couple very simple reasons, aoe and grievous wounds.

There is enough strong aoe in this game that adc’s need a frontline to keep it from reaching them, supports also shield and heal them enough to survive, that does not mean they aren’t overturned, it just means there’s a tactic that prevents you from taking too many of them.

If they aren’t overtuned why isn’t protect the mage or top Laner a thing?

Pika Fox1 votes

Because mages are safer with more consistent peel, and top laners build tankier. And, again, neither top nor mid kill towers and barons. Guess what wins games? Towers and barons. Your argument of "People protect x role thus x role is OP" is an argument from a lack of game understanding of why its even a thing in the first place (and why its literally always been a thing)

ADCs could globally do 0 damage to enemy champions, and youd still have protect the ADC.

makkii1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAJQsE86,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-04T03:55:05.723+0000)

Because mages are safer with more consistent peel, and top laners build tankier. And, again, neither top nor mid kill towers and barons. Guess what wins games? Towers and barons. Your argument of "People protect x role thus x role is OP" is an argument from a lack of game understanding of why its even a thing in the first place (and why its literally always been a thing)

ADCs could globally do 0 damage to enemy champions, and youd still have protect the ADC.

You’re not getting what I’m putting down at all. Yes other classes have strengths, the problem is when you have a situation where protecting and buffing one class, no matter the situation, whether it is engaging in team fights, or pushing towers is unequivocally the best option.

That suggests that said classes(adc’s) strengths significantly outpace the others strengths and is therefore overtuned.

That is to say the reason you don’t see a protect the annie(good cc and damage) or protect the ziggs(good zoning, damage and a bit of cc) as examples, is because the strengths are outpaced by the value that adc damage bring to the team, that is called being overtuned.

And your last sentence is absolute bullshit I’m sorry. Really shows your lack of critical thinking ability, if you want me to explain why, since you came upon that erroneous conclusion yourself, I’ll happily oblige. Literally the dumbest thing I’ve read on forums in a month.

Pika Fox1 votes

No, the last sentence is true. If they did 0 damage theyd still be protected and targetted. Again, they are the objective takers. Just killing the ADCeans tje eny cant end. Yes their teamfight damage is good purely as a side effect of them building full damage, but thats not why theyre on the team or why you protect them.

makkii1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAJQsE86,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2018-05-04T13:22:45.256+0000)

No, the last sentence is true. If they did 0 damage theyd still be protected and targetted. Again, they are the objective takers. Just killing the ADCeans tje eny cant end. Yes their teamfight damage is good purely as a side effect of them building full damage, but thats not why theyre on the team or why you protect them.

Let’s set aside for a second that if adc’s did no damage to champions they wouldn’t be picked, let’s also set aside the fact that any other duo comp would steamroll them as a result(they wouldn’t be able to even lane).

Let’s say theoretically you had two teams in the lategame both with adc's who did 0 damage to champions, and they faced off.

They teamfight 5v5? One team protects mage for the teamfight the other team protects adc so they can try to push with the adc after teamfight, who wins? The first team.

One team splits 3/2 with adc and support just pushing? Other team just groups as 5 and steamrolls the 3 man and then pushes as 5.

Hell you can even simulate this very principal, just go in a game, and only attack minions and towers, don’t attack champions, see how that works out for you.

There is no situation where adc doing 0 dmg to champs would ever be viable.

Do you feel dumb? You should feel dumb.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Plenty of ADCs can self peel a Tank with four forms of CC? (3 hard), using Flash or Righteous Glory?

Makkii is totally right, and I have zero idea if you know what your talking about.

Pika Fox1 votes

Depending on warding amd the persons reflexes, yes, most ADCs have a mobility tool to self peel. Few tanks have multiple CCs and damage to fully kill an adc without reaction time, and the ones that do such as malphite can be dodged with prediction (dodging malphite ult isnt unheard of)

Trist and ez can even queue their dodges such that they get away while CCd.

AirKingNeo1 votes

"Years" It's been 3 months or so.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

I mean, it's been longer than that :P. Considering I don't think I've posted on anything you've said in 18 yet.

makkii2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAJQsE86,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-03T23:43:03.204+0000)

"Lol, aww the ADC overlords are going to have to adapt like the rest of the world."

Im just gunna go ahead and say that if you dont want the reply to point you out as being biased, probably dont make it sound like you are.

The points he made were valid arguments. Correct ones? Dont know, but they did have merit to them. ADCs havnt been overtuned or the end all be all role, they just seem like they are because theyre literally the only role that can actually end the game. Thats not the ADCs fault, or them having "too much damage". Thats literally how the MOBA genre has been since its creation, how LoL has always been. Nothings changed.

No that is not how lol’s always been, but you’d of known that if you had actually been here from the beginning

Pika Fox3 votes

Ive played since before season 1. Yes, thats how its always been since we solved the game state to 1 top 1 mid 1 jungle 2 bot.

This seasons arguably the first season that may see that change since we now have a tower killing specific rune and possibly multiple ADC junglers that could become viable.

makkii2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAJQsE86,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-05-04T00:44:28.531+0000)

Ive played since before season 1. Yes, thats how its always been since we solved the game state to 1 top 1 mid 1 jungle 2 bot.

This seasons arguably the first season that may see that change since we now have a tower killing specific rune.

So have I and that is absolutely not the case.

Pika Fox3 votes

It is. The ADCs entire job is to stack offensive items so no one else has to. The ADC has always been the objective taking role, while everyone else has always been the teamfight oriented roles to protect the ADCs who hold the damage of their team, or to kill the enemy team to press a numbers advantage (and in turn get their ADC in a position to pressure/take an objective).

makkii2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAJQsE86,comment-id=00020000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-04T00:48:20.375+0000)

It is. The ADCs entire job is to stack offensive items so no one else has to. The ADC has always been the objective taking role, while everyone else has always been the teamfight oriented roles to protect the ADCs who hold the damage of their team, or to kill the enemy teams to press a numbers advantage (and in turn get their ADC in a position to pressure/take an objective).

There are many examples throughout the games lifespan in which the close out of games were predicated either on some team oriented pressure or other roles taking objectives(namely the prevalence of toplane split push in earlier seasons)

Some examples of the former being the poke meta of season 2? If i remember correctly, with Nidalee ezreal sona soraka etc, and season 1’s global meta where Ashe, Karthus, twisted fate and soraka and the like we’re picked in order to turn any even fight into an uneven one, and snowball/team pressure to victory.

And bearing all this in mind it is also true that in the earlier seasons adc’s did not come online as hard, or as fast, their damage wasn’t as rampy as it is now and so other classes had more of an identity outside of being the adc’s bitchboy

Never once in seasons 1-4 did I have adc’s regularly come into my lane stealing cs just cus, not even pushing, never once in those seasons would they dictate to me to let them farm so they can carry. Never once in those earlier seasons did I have adc’s with 10+ deaths telling the team that they can only win if the whole team peels and protects them, and it’s not that those things are wrong, it’s that the dynamic has changed drastically.

The reason is that offensive power has creeped up over the years, mainly with the addition of keystones to talent trees, item reworksand the subsequent runes reforged, and the buffs to ambient and shared gold has been of most benefit to lategame carry style.

You cannot sit here and argue in good faith that you went into every game back then, like you do now thinking “I can only win if botlane wins” “I can only close out games with botlane cooperation” that just wasn’t a thing back then.

Pika Fox1 votes

And in literally all of those games guess whos job it was to kill the towers? ADCs. The split pusher took towers sure, and they still do today, but its mostly to force someone else to respond (ideally multiple) so you can force pressure elsewhere (where the ADC is!) to take other objectives or hold a numbers advantage in a teamfight.

Theres a reason the ADC was always the most important person in a teamfight and most important person to kill and protect. No, its not because theyre doing all the damage (the biggest threats are usually the mage or the tank), its because if they die the enemy isnt likely capable of ending the game. This has always been true. Unless you have 1-2 inhibs down and minions pushed to base, if the ADC was dead you couldnt end.

makkii1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAJQsE86,comment-id=0002000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-04T01:15:23.625+0000)

And in literally all of those games guess whos job it was to kill the towers? ADCs. The split pusher took towers sure, and they still do today, but its mostly to force someone else to respond (ideally multiple) so you can force pressure elsewhere (where the ADC is!) to take other objectives or hold a numbers advantage in a teamfight.

You must be forgetful, because while that is the prevailing splitpushing strategy now, back when splitpushing was stronger, it was the case that champions like jax and tryn could clear waves and push towers in the blink of an eye that you would be on guard at all times because they would literally push into an inhibitor alone, and it wasn’t an occasional thing like it’s now, but something that happened multiple times nearly every game at it’s strong points.

It honesty sounds like you’re revising history to defend adc’s current game state.

Pika Fox1 votes

And they can still do that. But them taking and pushing an inhibitor is not ending the game. And fact of the matter is that players are just overall better now than they were back then, so theyll give far less opportunities and respond to split pushers far better now than they would have then.

makkii1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAJQsE86,comment-id=000200000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-04T01:24:53.763+0000)

And they can still do that. But them taking and pushing an inhibitor is not ending the game. And fact of the matter is that players are just overall better now than they were back then, so theyll give far less opportunities and respond to split pushers far better now than they would have then.

That’s not the reason that split push top isn’t what it used to be.

If you think of splitpushing you can really break it down into two components.

Waveclear and killing structures.

While mages historically have the best waveclear, outside a small period in season 1 or 2 when riot upscale their damage to structures, they’ve always have been bad at that regard. Adc’s before the inception of RFC and buffs to shiv, were good at killing structures but bad at waveclear, whereas traditional top laners tended to be good at both.

While toplane splitpushers weren’t ranged they were typically of the duelist/bruiser variety and could 2v1 as a result and could split push relatively safe because of it, the reason that it’s no longer really done is because of the buffs to adc waveclear, which paired with ranged attacks have made it much more efficient to siege as a group with adc as the focal point, this is only exacerbated by the fact that adc’s get their first 3-4 items much faster than earlier seasons.

Pika Fox1 votes

No, its pretty much the reason split push top isnt as effective. Even back then, a lot of times split pushing worked because people didnt respond as quickly or as well as they do now. You still had plenty of champions in the game that could instantly nullify a split push (anivia being one of them), and as you kill more and more towers, split pushing becomes less and less effective with just yourself (team can respond faster as youre closer to their base and the towers are closer together)

Eventually with more champions that bring more to the table and players just getting all around better, split pushing got less and less effective on its own as its harder to cheese an unaware enemy. A lot of older splitpushing was just cheesing while people were still learning the ins and outs of the game.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

You know, except now Mages and AP Assassins have a portion of their AP converted to AA damage on turrets, so even with ADs dead, they can still deal damage to structures.

ADCs are their for Objective damage, but that is in no way their only duty. They are also the only class that can easily shred tanks, out sustain Mage burst, and kite Juggernauts. ADs are the most important class for many reason,s whether you just wanna fixate on 1 is on you. Their ability to come online so fast being decreased isn't going to make them awful, it's simply just going to put them in line with the rest. They all have their roles to play, maybe now those roles will matter.

Pika Fox1 votes

AP -> Structure damage really only became useful within the last season or two when it was changed. Even still though, its not that high or great, and youre unlikely to be able to end the game off death timers killing 3 turrets and an inhib with 3 non ADCs 1 AP mage who isnt ziggs or azir.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Says a very biased statement "Lol, aww the ADC overlords are going to have to adapt like the rest of the world."

I'm not biased!!

What? Can you read yourself?

ADs shouldn't be powerhouses early game, because they are meant to be end game champions.

No other class in the game is made to be strong based around game time.

The problem is it your logic that is bias. Your role is finally getting hit like it should of long ago.

Attempting to call out someone for bias without any evidence. I fucking main top lane; I want ADC TO BE NERFED SO I CAN HAVE IMPACT. I'm just not fucking retarded into thinking that ADCs are overlords who rule the entire game, are assholes, and make whiny posts.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

In what world is that bias? Could it be more of a joke at your expense? Seeing how you always stick up for your secondary role? I even started with "lol" cause you know, joke.

The difference between the scaling is that ADs were hitting late game power far to soon, not every AD is meant to be a Late game hyper Carry (Luc/Draven} and they will still turn on during the early/mid game. But those of them that are meant to be late game monsters will actually need more than 2 items, thus meaning it will be later in the game when they come online, which is more appropriate for what they do.

ADs went bot with supports as Meta in Season 2 because it was deemed that they have a overall bad early game in comparison to most other classes, and that supports generally were stronger early game damage wise. This way they could still make it through lane without having the Jungler just come in and blow them up every few seconds, because now they have a aid.

Your secondary is ADC, and honestly your main champion is basically a Mage ADC (Kayle), You go on this long rant about why Riot is messing up, handling the ADC class, and based on our past conversations, it's really not that hard to know that. I rarely complain about the state of the game, included when ADs are the ones being the overtuned champs. I'm still not complaining, I like the changes they are making to ADCs, They won't be trash and they'll still have a impact, but that impact will be delayed giving the Solo laners time to actually have impact and making the games not decided by what bot lane is worse.

Rysophage1 votes

item 3147 item 3078 item 3146 all one item power spikes on non-adcs. oh anditem 3046 on yasuo. wtf are you talking about?

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Champions who build those items also tend to fall off (except Corki), outside of Yas and even Yas needs Ie/PD.

Champions who build Hex, Tri, and DB all tend to be mid game champions, where as most ADCs are late game champions. Sooo.

Big Lincoln2 votes

They're just making marksmen's damage take longer to come online.

crit* marksmen, which is the point. late game champions being made into late game champions again, not "2 items and I'm a huge threat" champions

caster marksmen now have much better and separate itemizing if they want to opt to be relevant sooner

AirKingNeo1 votes

why should all adcs be late game champions?

It's not like "all" of any class, but marksmen, are forced around a certain game time.

Big Lincoln2 votes

they aren't? not every ADC is intended to buy crit, which is the entire point of it as a stat being removed from items like ER, which is my second point. Caster marksmen now have caster marksmen items instead of jumping ship from lethality to crit depending on which one's not shit at the time

It's not like "all" of any class, but marksmen, are forced around a certain game time.

juggernauts are universally shitty meat sacks if they didnt win the game in 30 minutes

NemeBro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAJQsE86,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-03T23:09:05.991+0000)

juggernauts are universally shitty meat sacks if they didnt win the game in 30 minutes

Nasus is okay late game. Not really good late game like a Camille, Yasuo, or Jax, but okay.

Otherwise, yeah basically, and questioning why that should be the case with (bot lane) marksmen is a little silly. The answer is because Riot wants them to be. That's why they are all designed to scale into late game. The champions in the class as a whole would need to be reworked to change this.

warpenguin5551 votes

They aren't trying to make them all late game, they're trying to slow down scaling. They said they want to let people pick champions like Lucian and Draven and not get outscaled at 10 minutes by a Twitch or Xayah

Strop1 votes

Should i also say that the zeal crit items are already under 100% cost efficiency, and the 200g nerf will bring them close to 90 or even under. The crit system will also be messed up, since if you build one attackspeed item you will get 60 crit, and if you build 2 of them you will get 120, effectively wastig 800g worth of stats. Aand what about tanks? I mean, i know no one likes them, but they will legit be unplayable bcs of the 20% true dmg and the last whisper

Shadow MasterGod1 votes

Its 30% crit per zeal item not 60%

The Kay1 votes

I've read this thread and I see points on both sides.. but there's one thing that we are missing: WHY ARE WE NOT TALKING ABOUT HOW RIOT IS KILLING THE ROLE'S PURPOSE?! Yes, ADC were supposed to be glasscannons and primary objective takers. It was the point of them. Has always been. But yet, they are adding stuff that deals more and more damage to towers (tank's rune and 60% ap conversion on mages). Ok, the crit adcs were overtuned and they "fixed" that. But there's 2 things that came out from that: 1- Pushing the crit adcs to uber late game is pointless when everything in the game is about snowball and they will rarely see the late game. Not to mention crit is still luck-based (ANd I'm sure I remember rito talking about stopping with this RNG non sense FOR YEARS) and if you go for 100% crit, you are wasting gold efficiency. 2- Rise of the ap Kaisa, ap Varus, hybrid ezreal and maybe kog(big maybe here). How is that ok? Guinsoo -> Nashor -> RAbbadon... AttackDamageCarries that's what the role was meant to be. It's nearly like Ziggs bot lane all over again.

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