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"melees shouldn't go bot lane"

Ahristocats··28 votes·2,632 views

I don't understand how can people think that Why are people so narrow minded? why do they love playing the same over and over again?

You're a toplane main, but you want to become a Carry main and play Bot lane because top lane doesn't matter anymore, why should you be forced to only play one archetype of carry+ mordekaiser? it doesn't make any sense

This game should bring fun, but where is the fun if you already know the archetype you're playing in next game ranged carries is only one pathern over a dozen of carries, between skirmishers like Yasuo , weird things like Gangplank Kayle , the game can allow you so much diverse game styles, but somehow if you queue while going bot lane, the only thing you're allowed to play is one pathern which is playing a ranged champion, position yourself in a great distance and rightclick anyone in front of you

This game should allow melees to go bot lane for the sole reason of FUN, and equality between champions to not feel massive imbalance if you don't pick one archetype of DAMAGE

"but ranged adcs are not allowed to solo lane"

First, a couple number of adcs can go elsewhere than bot lane

Secondly, it's because they would be BUSTED, if Jinx could solo lane, it would mean that her early game would be so busted that she couldn't be abusable in early game to compensate her hypercarry state of late game

Thirdly, Some melees will be balanced around bot lane naturally, like Gangplank Yasuo if melee bot laners would be a thing. The reason is quite simple, if melees (that are good in late game, not lane bullies) end up bot lane they will destroy the shit out of adcs, because their early game power is above adcs to allow them to solo lane RIGHT NOW, if they play against adcs in 2v2 with a more reliable way of damaging (something that riot is working on according to Asyrite https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/KPKccG7T-after-5-years-of-league-i-am-calling-it-quits-at-the-end-of-the-season?comment=0041 ) they will destroy them

eventually they will be nerfed because of bot lane, and their solo lane power would be weaker and they wouldn't be able to compet against things like Kled forcing them to go bot lane against other weak early game champions

I do not hate ADCS, and i play some of them However as someone who "mains everything" and want to play the carry role to carry my team and hold a huge impact on the game, i cannot stress about how the carry role is boring if only one archetype is allowed

[slayer-jinx-catface]

38 Comments

MorganFreemanBot6 votes

Basically, there are two elements at play here:

1: Taking a melee bot laner as a carry (so basically trading out Draven for Darius, or MF for GP), severely limits your ability to take contested towers, or defend them.

During a siege, adcs are able to sneak in hefty chunks against a tower in (relative) safety due to their range. They also offer strong, no mana cost wave clear from (again, relative) safety. Both of these are due to their ranged autos, and a melee carry attempting to do either of these will put them MUCH more in harms way due to them being melee. Morde can muscle past this because of his insane shield, and the fact that he can use dragon to skull-fuck a tower into the dirt.

2: Melee are easily abused in lane. A ranged bot laner is free to take pot shots and deny farm / harass a melee bot lane 'carry' due to their ranged. The subsequent burden of skill to catch, and murder, that same carry does really rest on the shoulders of the melees team; it's a whole hell of a lot easier to protect an Ezreal from harm than nail him down and harm him.

Similarly this means the burden then transfer to your jungle, as he will have to perform extreme baby-sitting to ensure the melee carry has a shot at surviving said bot lane.. Which leaves the enemy free to punish him via counter jungling / ruining other lanes, or ganking into a favorable situation down bot.

It IS worth noting that the second issue, the lane dynamics one, is one of player skill; but assuming equal skill it's truly on the ranged bot lane to throw the game, rather than the melee one to win it.

Personally? I think there's a way around this.

Juggernauts.

Juggernauts are basically the melee version of an adc; they're extremely dangerous but also extremely vulnerable. Supporting a juggernaut would be extremely similar to supporting an ADC, only instead of focusing on protecting and peeling, you're main goal is restricting and catching.

All it would take is some item rebalancing (I think the 'bruiser core' items are something like 12,000g, while ADCs are more like 9,500g) and nominal nerfs to overbearing adcs (Ezreal, Twitch, Vayne). With that done taking Darius, Illaoi, Trundle, or perhaps even Shyv / others into bot as the 'carry' could be quite viable, and have really interesting results.

Personally I think that should be a big goal for the balance team, to peel back some of the ADC power and try to make it so that juggernauts are a viable alternative for them in bot lane, one which brings different strengths to the team comp so that neither one overshadows the other.

DeusVult2 votes

This will NEVER happen, because Juggernauts are bronze stomping monsters. If juggernauts started going bot lane, and getting power to rival ADCs, who are their counter (juggernauts lose to sustained DPS from range) then they would stomp everything, especially in lower elos where teams want to butt heads with them constantly for some unknown reason. They offer no safe waveclear, and less damage to objectives. Also, Juggernauts, as with most other classes, gain a ton from levels, not just items. Gaining a level of stats is about 2500g of stats. ADCs can get by with less XP because they benefit pretty much solely from their itemization, as IE+Double zeal items and a LW item give them all the AD, pen, crit, crit multipliers and Attack speed that they need to team fight, take neutral objectives and towers, wave clear, and just be a general DPS dump.

You will always see at least one AD marksmen played bot lane or even in a different lane until their itemization receives a nerf that makes them less mandatory for all aspects of the game, or they become less safe vs melee champs. ATM a mid-late game ADC building only offensive items, with proper positioning and modern support itemization, will cut through any opposition that the other team has.

NoPaxt4 votes

I think it's less that mele shouldn't go bot, but more the idea that mele shouldn't replace a ranged ADC.

Ahristocats4 votes

that's basically the same thing

if a melee is allowed to go bot, he would be able to replace a ranged ADC in therm of carry potential, which should be allowed

the thing that shouldn't be allowed is melees being so overpowered that it would be pointless to take a ranged carry anymore

NoPaxt2 votes

Ranged AD is too important to replace, if you don't get that, I can't fix it for you...

Ahristocats3 votes

you can't fixe it but riot can

and this is what they're going to do in next season, read Riot asyrite's post

AirKingNeo2 votes

Well, that implies that they will.

Riot has a hard time keeping promises to bruisers.

NoPaxt1 votes

Moving the ADC to another lane is not replacing it. Run your comp and lose, it's preseason, better to figure it out now...

redniwediS2 votes

Ranged AD can go to other lanes, so it's not exactly the same thing. We don't exactly need a ranged AD in the bot lane at the very least.

Naymliss2 votes

But not all ranged ad champions can solo lane. Gl trying Ashe Jinx if they get shoved out of bot lane.

redniwediS1 votes

Individual champions have their own problems, but the role a ranged AD fills in a team comp can be filled from other positions.

Naymliss1 votes

That's true, but i'm not really worried about that. There are people who enjoy one tricking certain champions, and if those champions can only be played in one lane and get pushed out of that lane, they are unplayable.

Doozku1 votes

No one is saying that AD's should be shoved out of botlane. So many toplane fighters are only viable toplane but when tanks are meta they are still played toplane.

Need Gold 4 Tent3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stark of Wrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q92Oa1Na,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-01T11:25:05.174+0000)

I think it's less that mele shouldn't go bot, but more the idea that mele shouldn't replace a ranged ADC.

We should be able to run a comp without ADC if we wanted to. An ADC comp should have its own pros to make its own niche, but so should a non-ADC comp.

NoPaxt1 votes

You play w/o an ADC and you lose against anyone with 3 brain cells...

Troll for Trump3 votes

Game won't allow it because ADCs have always been a staple of the game. And if you move the ADC elsewhere, you're going to encounter a lot of other problems.

Ahristocats3 votes

looks like riot accepted the troubles then?

since meddler said they will look into making melee bot laners a thing, and Asyrite said they will help melees in season 9 to not make them skewered into "protect the adc" or "splitpushing"

Troll for Trump1 votes

So?

That's the answer to the question

don't understand how can people think that Why are people so narrow minded? why do they love playing the same over and over again?

I agree with all the "should" statements but I'm telling you why I think people are so "narrow-minded" as to think that

vgamedude3 votes

I think it's dumb that bot is always a ranged marksman adc its the only role in the game where a specific class is required.

Other positions have multiple class choices but for bot carry it's ALWAYS ADC marksman. Really makes you think.

chipndip13 votes

I don't think the issue is that melees specifically should go bot lane, specifically.

Think of it like this: In this game, how many sub classes are there? Vanguards/Wardens, Divers/Jugs, Skirmishers/Assassins, Marksmen, Battle/Burst/Artillery Mages, and Enchanters/Catchers. That's 12 sub-classes. However, we HAVE to have marksmen on the team, and in bot lane, at all times. So we have 11 sub-classes competing for 4 positions at all times.

Now, if we're thinking smart team comp building, you need ap damage, you need a front line, and you need solid engage. Front liners can usually hit the last two marks on their own, and usually go top lane. Even though you can have ap junglers, you tend to get more ap damage in later stages of the game from mid lane mages. The jungler is usually someone that can engage as well, because they need to land early ganks, and support is generally free to do whatever so long as it can also pull off some defensive maneuvers for the adc (mages, enchanters, tanks, catchers).

AP damage mid, tank/diver top, tank/diver jg, and kind of a grab bag for support, but notice that tanky champs that don't engage, AD carries that aren't ranged, and assassins don't really have the best time fitting in all this. If we didn't have to have marksmen in the bot lane, perhaps we could see more variety in what we see elsewhere. Using the same foundation gets us to the same result each time. You could accomplish this by having melee champs go bot at some point, but the issue there is that ranged champions work better with supports than melees do in most cases.

Now, if you ask me, I think skirmishers like Yasuo and Master Yi should be retooled to be bot lane picks. That opens up room for people to play them without wonking out your team comp elsewhere. Besides, what's the point in 2 late game AD carries? However, opening the role up to ANY OTHER SUB CLASS would be a strong start.

Serika Zero3 votes

You're a toplane main, but you want to become a Carry main and play Bot lane because top lane doesn't matter anymore, why should you be forced to only play one archetype of carry+ mordekaiser? it doesn't make any sense

No, you don't go to bot lane, you become a carry main and stay top. You start playing assassins (akali, talon) or adcs (vayne, quinn) and stay top :) You become a carry main, top :)

BeatzBoyFTW3 votes

It's not fun when playing a melee champ at top lane against a dickhead that goes Vayne top.

Penns2 votes

Itd be kinda fun if the melee champs have more counterplay than adcs but idk, ranged AD champs are pretty gud at pushing and killing stuff lul. If they do it, I hope they only let melee champs with counterplay like Darius go bot, adcs having none is enough imo hehe

Ahristocats9 votes

weren't you the one telling me that darius had no counterplay?

Penns9 votes

More than other melee champs like Yi or Trynda. He has counterplay as a team and as champs that counter him, but his passive just makes him auto win some fights by outstatting the enemy and his E+slow makes it p hard to get away from him in a 1v1.

LankPants2 votes

My opinion on this is that if ranged champs can go top melees should be able to go bot lane carry.

I really don't care which way this swings, but either some melees should be playable bot or champs like Gnar, Jayce and Vlad should be mercilessly purged from top and it should be made a melee only lane in contrast to bot as a ranged only lane. Either way would be fine by me, but the idea that ranged tops are fine but melee bot's aren't is a huge double-standard that needs to be removed.

Kingdom Corn2 votes

You have to remember the reason these marksman go bot lane is because that lane is more dependent on gold than levels. Champions like Gangplank are HEAVILY reliant on levels (Level 13 gp is a huge fucking power spike for him) and being bot lane would just be a set back. I have nothing against ADCs being the only playable role in bot lane, after all they need a support to baby sit them so that they can get farm without being forced out of lane, on the other hand Gangplank wants everybody out of his lane cause he wants the XP.

Ahristocats1 votes

and tristana really wants the 660 range of her passive and vayne really wants the 1 sec cd on tumble by lvl 9 and jinx really wants her 180 attack speed steroid from Q (based on ranks btw) and lucian and jhin (whisper damage spikes at lvl 11 or something) i can go on like this for hours, almost every marksman needs lvl too

nyakasgoods2 votes

Most marksmen want levels on their abilities for better cds, but since their damage is typically autos and they don't necessarily need to rely on their base health and resistances every single time they want to trade, they don't value xp as much as most other champs.

GP is an especially strong example since before level 13 you pretty much have to have a barrel sit out for 2 seconds before its health decays naturally, and he typically needs to land a good barrel combo to succeed in a teamfight.

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

eventually they will be nerfed because of bot lane, and their solo lane power would be weaker

You really think that Gangplank or Yasuo or <<insert current solo laner that would be balanced for duo bot>> players would WANT their champion to suddenly start relying on support to survive early?

I can bet dollars to donuts that vast majority of solo laners wouldn't want that.

Yasuo's is everyone's first example of a potential melee carry, but looking at Yasuo playerbase they would be freaking maddened if their solo outplays got replaced with reliance on this useless Lulu.

I know I would be pretty pissed if my Urgot Illaoi or Yorick suddenly needed a babysitter. Well, Urgot is technically ranged, but still.

In other words, the point is less that melee's shouldn't be allowed botlane (although there are better or worse reasons for that, too), the point is how many players REALLY want this. Literally every melee champion that is not a tank currently has a strong (or strong-ish) emphasis on dueling power. That's why we play them.

There are a lot of threads about this here on boards, but i.e. on reddit not so much. And even here like 75% of those threads are authored by 5 or 6 players who really want that.

I would be more than happy to see a NEW melee carry champion on bot, or 5 of them, but pushing existing ones there? Sounds bad.

Vectros2 votes

You've pointed out an issue I've seen for years. ADC's are a dominant force...in fact, Marksmen are the only role which take up a particular position in every game-while sometimes stretching into other lanes or even jungle. No other role can boast this. ADC's are broke if you ask me...until ADC is no longer required bot lane, they are an issue.

Pokemonred2001 votes

As I recall, wasn't part of the reason Kindred was introduced so that you could have a champion who wasn't a marksman (Ahri, Yasuo, Ziggs) go botlane, since you could, in this case, have one in the jungle? I remember Riot saying they did enjoy the Ziggs bot meta, and want to introduce starting items that help Mages and Melee champs go botlane to replace the general marksman that's always down there, and I feel like I remember them mentioning Ahri when they added adaptive stats so that off meta picks would be more viable.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

As I recall, wasn't part of the reason Kindred was introduced so that you could have a champion who wasn't a marksman (Ahri, Yasuo, Ziggs) go botlane

i don't know, many marksmen were able to go somewhere else before kindred and it never changed anything

in season 3 ezreal mid was popular (with blue build) same with varus

Aimléss1 votes

If you want to scale into late game and be your team's damage late game, top lane is arguably better for that than bot lane, since you can CS there easier since it's quieter and you gain more levels. The only difference is that in bot lane you'd be more involved in early team fights, but if you're playing a scaling ADC then you don't really make the difference in those fights anyway.

Besides, having a ranged ADC is always going to be an advantage late game except when up against such burst heavy comps that they could never stay alive. In those cases, I think it would be nice to have at least some meta melees there who could survive such a comp. I see it as being just a couple, the same way top has like a couple meta marksmen.

AirKingNeo1 votes

I mean I'd love to play Kayle bot lane, just I have no clue how I get that to work.

Clapper of Asses1 votes

Whenever i play thresh, i love LOVE getting yasuo and lee sin adc it is such a fun lane. However it's only fun with an aggressive supp, if i pick a passive supp the lane is usually lost since we get poked down.

Kaìju1 votes

Why not make some kind of I hate mechanic that allows some melee champions to attack towers from a distance? For example let Yi do something where he can strikes tower from say 400, or Yasuo with wind slaves for 500. That way you still have traditional weaknesses of range but with some actual tower pressure. It could also he a tuning lever, say someone like Darius is dumpstering bot, make his auto range on towers a bit shorter so he has to commit more.

Drako1251 votes

I mean, MasterYi has all the makings of an ADC already

  • Snowbally
  • AA based damage
  • Stale meme YI ADC for 2018 :^)

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