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Strange idea to make it so ranged champs can't abuse bruiser and tank items

Pyrithegethon··2 votes·324 views

This would take a lot of work but what if we changed how base stats worked?

What if for champs intended to build bruiser/juggernaut(Darius, Irelia, Yorick) had AD they gain per level act as it functions on live as being part of their base AD but for champs that thrive on damage(Master Yi, Vayne, Tryndamere) any AD they gain per level is counted as bonus AD(adjusting ability numbers so it isnt a buff).

If that happens we can make items intended for bruisers give AD based on a % of base AD but always capping at the same amount so that each champ intended to buy these items(black cleaver, titanic hydra) arent at a disadvantage to other tanky dudes. So say it gives AD based on 25% base AD but caps at 20 AD you only need 80 base AD to get the full effect. The item would add to your base, not give bonus. Numbers for abilities are adjusted appropriately.

Now for champs that thrive with bonus AD would purposely be given a garbage base AD at level 1 that never changes and all AD per level would be bonus AD. Items intended for them would give AD based on % of bonus AD but capping at the same amount.

Here is an example of AD a jugg would have vs a ranged ADC.

Darius: would have 60-130 base AD from levels 1-18.

Lucian: would have 40 base AD plus 20-70 bonus AD per level.

These arent exact numbers but the idea is there.

We wouldnt remove longsword or dorans to only work for carries, only the items they build into will be changed.

If we reworked black cleaver to only give you AD based on 30% base AD, capping at 30 AD Darius would get 30 AD but lucian would get a measly 12 AD.

Seems complicated and im a bit of a poor explainer but tell me what your thoughts are ^^

17 Comments

Astôlfo3 votes

Or alternatively, you could just make those items melee-only and fix all the problems.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

until you realize...

Azir Jayce Kennen Nidalee Elise Gnar Kayle Thresh Urgot Chogath

...exist

Pierce The Veal4 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q5o03p0b,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T16:26:44.497+0000)

until you realize...

Azir Jayce Kennen Nidalee Elise Gnar Kayle Thresh Urgot Chogath

...exist

Almost none of those champions build any of the items that are problems. Only Jacye, Gnar, and Urgot do, in which case they can always be rebalanced.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

those champs dont exactly fit the whole bill of melee vs ranged either.

Astôlfo2 votes

They have melee attacks. Make the armorpen/BC armorshred stacks only apply on their melee attacks. Simple.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

They have melee attacks. Make the armorpen/BC armorshred stacks only apply on their melee attacks. Simple.

Already the case.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q5o03p0b,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T16:36:58.393+0000)

those champs dont exactly fit the whole bill of melee vs ranged either.

They already apply melee only effects in their melee forms. Of those champions, Azir, Kennen, Thresh, and Urgot are truly ranged (though with shorter range than ADCs).

Astôlfo2 votes

Only Jayce/Gnar/Urgot would even build any of the armorpen items. Jayce/Gnar have melees. Have said attacks proc armorpen effect only on their said melee attacks. AKA, ranged autos will not have flat armor pen or Black Cleaver effect stacking. Urgot needs a rework in general.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

im just going to disagree with your quick fix method and leave it at that.

Astôlfo2 votes

mmk. Don't bother posting if you have no valid points in the first place.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

i have valid points. you just ignored them. im not going to sit here and argue about it when you're obviously not going to agree. i'll repeat my points

first - those are your opinions about what should be built on said champ. second - any time you say "in which case they can always be rebalanced" you're bandaging an even bigger problem. third - making the armor penetration items melee only permanently locks ranged champions out of using AD as a means to confront tanks because %pen is weaker in general until a certain threshold is reached. that threshold is even higher than normal when attack damage isnt as high at which point tanks will start stacking hp and damage to reduce a marksmans effectiveness. fourth - does not prevent AP based marksmen from being effective which will then promote a higher preference in AP marksmen.

those are just the ones off of the top of my head.

Astôlfo2 votes

One, mmk. Two, which is...? Three, that's the point. Tanks are supposed to tank till late. If they want to deal damage, they should use crit and attack speed. Or just pure AD. Four, there are practically no AP marksmen, nor are they good for the same purposes as an ADC.

Next.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

two - that assassin's and marksmen use the same stats to determine the power of their abilities and that because attack speed is inherently less reliable than damage per hit simply because most physical items and scenarios work better with pure damage. both of which eclipse the entire purpose of criticals. to say that criticals arent luck would be a massive understatement. for the sake of clarity and the sake of balance something needs to be changed and it's not locking champions out of items.

three - i never said anything about a tank needing damage. currently tanks build damage to try and battle against being eaten alive by a marksman's armor penetration and to put it in simple terms armor will not get kills - unless you're taric. if you take away the flat armor penetration which works best at stopping hp builds then marksmen will have to resort to last whisper for every scenario or carry penetration runes/masteries in their builds. when that happens you'll start seeing more and more HP/AP based champions like mundo and shen brought back out until they're the only champions being used top simply because stacking armor will be even less effective than it already is and they're locked out of physical damage items. that wont necessarily stop the damage up top either. it will just make hp and regen tanks oppressive again. the way to get tanks to buy armor and hp and the way to get marksmen to buy attack speed and critical instead of buying physical damage and flat penetration is not by locking them out of the items. all that does is create a feeling of stagnation. at that point the game starts playing itself.

four - Kennen Teemo KogMaw Corki Ezreal Azir 6 of 24. that's 1/4th of the roster.

Astôlfo2 votes

Two - Assassins are burst. Marksmen are DPS. Assassins build armorpen because their main target is only squishy ones with almost no resistances beyond their bases. Marksmen are meant to take down any target, aka, they build attack speed and crit to continuously output damage. Building armorpen on them makes no sense.

Three - I never said anything about tanks needing damage. I said the point of tanks is to tank. If an ADC wants to damage them, they should have to build into % armor pen. "if you take away the flat armor penetration which works best at stopping hp builds then marksmen will have to resort to last whisper for every scenario" Yes, that is what it should be like and how it should happen. I fail to see the issue. "when that happens you'll start seeing more and more HP/AP based champions like mundo and shen brought back out until they're the only champions being used top simply because stacking armor will be even less effective than it already is and they're locked out of physical damage items." And then you see intelligent people just build LDR or Giant Slayer. Or Mortal Reminder or EC against sustain. "it will just make hp and regen tanks oppressive again." No, it won't. Please learn what you're talking about.

Four - Kennen is not a marksman anymore by any means, nor does he build like one in the slightest. No one plays AP Kog nor is it even viable. Corki in general is garbage and is hybrid in the first place. Almost no one plays AP Ezreal in any realistic circumstance.

OneMustFall1 votes

Makes no sense to do this when items like Black Cleaver are already less effective on marksman and it falls off by late game. Why try to force champions into intended items and roles to start with? Let people decide what's best to build on champs. If it's the big of a problem the best solution is just to make the item Melee only since that's effectively what your suggested changes are doing anyway.

Astôlfo4 votes

Because ranged champions are not meant to be abuse easy armorpen/shred outside of Last Whisper or an evolution of it.

Cleaver was meant solely for bruisers/juggernauts. Ghostblade/Duskblade/Maw was meant solely for assassins. Coincidentally, both are melee only.

UberAffe1 votes

There would have to be changes to a fair number of abilities to balance things out but I like this idea. It would be a lot easier to balance than what we currently have and it isn't just a cop out of making items melee only just because they are decent on ranged champions.

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