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The best way to make melee champs be used bot besides ranged adcs is a rather simple change

Pyrithegethon··3 votes·1,018 views

Morde only worked due to his bullshit exp buff and semi decent sustain/waveclear.

To make more melees work there are two changes that could be done make them work. Only one of them is necessary but both can be used.

  1. Relic shield getting a small change that does not benefit supports but doesnt nerf them: for every cs you get outside of spending your charges when you have no charges you reduce the timer for the next charge.

If this needs a nerf because of the gold regen we can nerf the gold to only share 75% of gold but increase the heal.

  1. Buffing Dorans shield to be more duo lane friendly. Increase the flat block to 16-20 towards ranged auto attacks if the champ is melee and a friendly champion is within 800 range.

If this needs a nerf because of supports abusing it then we can nerf the block but buff the sustain and lower the cost IF it becomes an issue.

17 Comments

Eedat3 votes

Melee champs will never replace ranged ADCs. If you're still wondering why, you don't understand the purpose of the ADC role and why it has existed practically the entire history of LoL

DeathBurst2 votes

Ranged ADC doesn't imply Bot. Varus mid, Graves or Twitch Jungle, Quinn or Vayne Top, all are played.

So it would be nice if we could bloody finally have a way so that Bot doesn't imply Ranged ADC either...

Eedat2 votes

Bot is always a ranged AD champ because Quinn/Vayne top and Varus mid are uncommon picks. Having bot lane always have one ensures your team isn't left high and dry without one. Having an ADC is important for objective control. They're good and relatively safe for taking towers and provide high single target DPS for dragon and Baron.

Sasogwa2 votes

{quoted}

Bot is always a ranged AD champ because Quinn/Vayne top and Varus mid are uncommon picks. Having bot lane always have one ensures your team isn't left high and dry without one. Having an ADC is important for objective control. They're good and relatively safe for taking towers and provide high single target DPS for dragon and Baron.

Actually I think that's the worst possible argument for having an ADC. The BS argument everyone uses to justify the domination of ADC's without putting much thought into it. Any carry deals decent damage to objectives. Mages now also deal very good damage to structures and in general sieges are mostly about baron control and splitpushing, it's a bit too risky to go in put some autos on the tower, u can get hardengaged on. ADC's dominate because they have the strongest duo laning paired with supps, and the highest safe ranged DPS in teamfight (except arguably Ryze/Cass). Objective control is not really what makes them pick or lose. If anything, it's the icing on the cake.

DeathBurst1 votes

They are uncommon picks, but they have the merit to exist at all, and even when they are used, we STILL have an ADC bot, because there is no current alternative at all (or rather, there are some alternatives, but your team will flame you for daring to pick them more than half the time).

I'm not denying that having a source of ranged sustained DPS is good for a team comp but it doesn't HAVE TO be Bot lane. And that'd be great if the community could finally realize that fact... Saying "people always play ADC bot because you don't always have a ranged DPS elsewhere" is just circular logic. There would be more room for ranged DPS Mid or Jungle if there wasn't always one Bot.

(And "good", but not even "necessary" until you reach pretty high MMR, but that's another story. Also, some AP threats like Cass' or Ryze could fill this role too, at least for team-fights and Baron/Dragon, if not for tower cleaning.)

TehNACHO2 votes

Someone here doesn't understand the skewed Gold/Exp ratio nor the role of ADCs that make the Ranged ADC role a necessity.

DeathBurst2 votes

Ranged ADC doesn't imply Bot. Varus mid, Graves or Twitch Jungle, Quinn or Vayne Top, all are played.

So it would be nice if we could bloody finally have a way so that Bot doesn't imply Ranged ADC either...

TehNACHO1 votes

In their off roles, Varus Mid functions as an Artillery Mage, Graves a Tanky Skirmisher, Twitch an Assassin. Quinn is closer to the ADC role in function, but her practical use is closer to that of a Slayer. Vayne is the only example you gave that still functions truly as the team's ranged DPS. Marksmen as a class are flexible, playing the role of an ADC is not.

Now let me reexplain myself. I would advocate for more than just Marksman taking the ADC role. However, if you want to do it right, you need to do it waaaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than OP gave thought to. Treat the ADC role as the "Gold Carry" role for example, and design new champs specifically around the Gold/Exp ratio that skews bot lane. Furthermore, you need to have a good late game goal for these champions. If the goal is "cheese lane and cheese game", you can already play double Melee bot lane and win lane really hard if you tried with a duo partner (and both of you know what you're doing). On the other hand, you either need a really good reason to abandon your safe late game DPS, or you need some way to replace that need once you remember that League is at least equal parts a team strategy game than just winning lane.

To reiterate, there are smarter ways to put melees in bot lane, and there needs to be purpose in doing so.

DeathBurst1 votes

As for the Purpose, I mean, what's the purpose of being able to play anything from an Artillery to an Assassin through a Burst or Battle Mage Mid? There is no reason that Bot should be the only position with absolutely no flexibility regarding the type of champs you can play there.

Just for the records, and only counting what is relatively meta (so no Master Yi Mid) :

  • Top: Tank, Fighter, Battle Mage, Marksman
  • Mid: All types of Mages, Assassin
  • Jungle: Tank, Fighter, Assassin, Marksman
  • Support: Most types of Mage, Enchanter, Tank
  • Bot: Marksman, and that's all

As for the necessity of a "Ranged ADC" as you mean it, as opposed to simply a "Marksman": I agree with that point, but you still have a possibility to get this from other lanes. Twitch jungle COULD be played as a "Ranged ADC" past laning phase, it's just redundant with the one that is ALWAYS Bot in the current meta, so he may as well fill another niche. Vayne already can. Re-work Kog'maw could for a time. Kindred definitely can.

And finally, regarding the "smarter ways", you're most probably right that there are some smarter ways. But simpler ways are good too, and they are easier to test and iterate upon. Dismissing the whole OP with "Someone here doesn't understand..." was not called for.

TehNACHO1 votes

Because those types of carries are best suited to Mid Lane's environment, being far safer than top lane while still offering 100% of your EXP AND Gold. This means that level scaling mages or risky scaling Assassins love the lane far more than others.

Also I want to point out that Mid Lane is a bad comparison. Mid lane actively benefits certain classes, whereas both Side Lanes come with massive problems that champions have to solve. Just a nitpick, but you should've used Top for your example. I wanted to point this out because, yes there is in fact reasons why Bot should be restrictive. Bot has a specific niche of problems you must solve to maximize effectively. Mid you can get away with literally anything if you handle the champion to champion matchup well, but you can't use every champion in Top and Bot Lane (and Jungle and Support role for that matter) without at least some of them failing. Not "no flexibility" restrictive, but restrictive nonetheless. This is the point I'm trying to make with the other post. Marksman just happen to solve the problem the best as an entire class. If you design a new champion around these problems, you've solved the Marksman bot problem.

I'm going to leave the "Ranged ADC" vs "Marksman" thing alone. We both got our points out and we both agree on at least most elements on some extent. Continuing onwards from this point just distracts from the rest of the conversation since this was always a tangent in the first place.

Simpler ways also can fail hard. Exp is a Bot Lane specific problem? Let's ignore the problem altogether! Enter Mordekaiser.

And excuse me but, his ideas are nothing but bandaids. Misshapen bandaids at that. Perhaps it was uncalled for, but League has a history of something breaking hard because of a bad bandaid earlier in its history.

DeathBurst1 votes

Because those types of carries are best suited to Mid Lane's environment, [for reasons]

Yeah, but "those types", plural. You still have choices and flexibility. Bot, you don't. I think your point is: this flexibility wasn't on purpose, it's just a nice coincidence. Am I right? Well, that would indeed refute my demonstration by analogy, but then let me state: I think having choices and flexibility is a good thing and should be an objective, even if the current flexibility is just a product of luck, and especially in a context where you pick your position on the map and not your role. Some players like a certain type of champs more than a given position, and a Tank player can play Top/Jung/Sup, an Assassin player can play Mid/Jung, etc. Having flexibility is better for LoL ecosystem as a whole, I'm convinced of that.

Also I want to point out that Mid Lane is a bad comparison.

This whole paragraph is an interesting remark by itself, but there was nothing Mid-specific in my original point. You can indeed replace "Mid" by "Top" in my post, and nothing changes. I'd be interested if you could elaborate on the problems of Side-lanes in general, 'cause from my own experience, a very large number of Solo laners can be played Mid or Top indifferently ("if you handle the champion to champion matchup well"). They just prefer to be Mid because this opens up more ways to roam and impact the game more globally. It's more "Mid has advantages" than "Top has issues (beyond just not offering the same advantages)", in my mind.

Simpler ways also can fail hard.

They can also be reverted more easily. Your Morde example is representative. The timing was bad for pro-play, but they simply nerfed the problematic XP passive over a few patches, and he has been in an okay spot pretty fast. From a Ranked/SoloQ perspective, that was definitely an experiment worth having that didn't cost much.

Aptest2 votes

Here is the predicament for ranged VS melee:

melee usually have reach skills and can catch and kill most ranged after item power spike. This is why melee dominates top lane 1v1 matchup.

supports upset this balance through peeling.

in team composition, not good to have too many melees. Because you need to dogpile on every opponent you try to kill and too many champions in the game punish dogpiles really well with AOE. with ranged not a problem because can do damage without dogpiling.

if melee to play bot, than for good composition ranged must play top. if ranged can not survive top because riven / fiora / jax / irelia than must put ranged bot.

but yes if you have ranged top lane (gnar does not count) you can melee bot.

HOWEVER

if enemy team is 3 carries no tank, can play mid range or long range MAGE in bot in stead of ADC.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

This is why melee dominates top lane 1v1 matchup.

have you taken a look at top lane recently?

that generic statement is just false. there have been multiple periods where ranged champions dominated the top lane meta.

one of them is right now.

also, the game dependency on marksmen could be solved by providing better itemization similar to item 3512 to allow melees to siege turrets better, if theyre building into it. but those items need to be designed to function better on melee champions than ranged champions, or have the mele only tag added.

even then. game dependency on marksmen is still not == duo lane being locked down to marksmen. theyre often played on other positions of the map, like Kindred

marksmen have options to practially go into every other lane. bot lane (or the duo lane) should be more open to other classes aswell.

Aptest1 votes

I think all of you have a big, critical error in thinking.

ya'll think the replacement to a Ashe should be a Yasuo. where it probably should be a Ziggs , or an Anivia.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

to elaborate, a balanced teamcomp could very much look look like this

ADC: Kindred (jungle) fighter: Mordekaiser (bot lane) support: Thresh (bot lane) tank: Malphite (top lane) mage: Annie (mid lane)

it doesnt matter which lane which type of champion takes. as long as the overall teamcomp is balanced out.

every other lane right now is very flexible to what type of champion you can pick into it. its really only the duo lane that still, after 6 years is tied down to marksmen.

because every other combination than 0cs support + marksman gets shit on down there.

with Ivern as a jungling support, riot has introduced another unconventional class/role combination, opening up further possible variations.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

or make relic shield share gold and give some extra xp. but the xp only if its shared with a melee champion.

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