Anybody else think shen has the Karma problem?

Lady Hammerlock·Jun 29, 2016·16 votes·1,409 views

Remember Karma's rework way back In terms of gameplay,Karma was improved(if you aren't counting ala shield bomb) but then something generally felt lost,thematically Karma's rework failed,there is no duality(karma) in her kit

Shen's rework in gameplay made him a lot more fun and improved him gameplay wise but anybody else feel like his twighlight blade thing just doesn't fit with his theme at all?A rioter did note how awkward the blade fits with him thematically

23 Comments

Sire HippingtonJun 29, 201611 votes

For shen certainy didn't become more fun, same for karma. Both may have become healthier to play against, but playing as was much more fun for me befor there reworks. And yes, both failed hard in terms of thematics.

MelledoneusJun 29, 201611 votes

I might get lynched with downvotes for this, but I personally loved the Shen rework. It's much more fun to be able to control when your main damage comes out rather than auto attacking and having to wait 8 seconds for a new one.

Not to mention having the worst healing mechanic on his Q before the rework, which was turned into a %HP magic damage auto attack buff that makes dueling against top laners with tankier stats a possibility.

Voluug13Jun 29, 20164 votes

On the other hand, Don Cingulum is right about Karma.

Scarma is pretty binary to play as, and not really healthy to play against because of her point and click delayed root. This is specially apparent in midlane. The only ''fun'' role for Scarma atm is Jungle, where she feels actually powerful due to stupidly powerful ganks.

Shen IS funner to play, yeah, but his thematical thing is failing pretty big.

MelledoneusJun 29, 20162 votes

The thing is, the only thing we thematically know about him for sure is:

He's a warrior. (he sure as hell looks like one, too)
He's spiritual/magical. (Spirit sword and teleportation)
He enforces the balance between the spirit and physical realm. (Again, spirit sword and normal sword differentiation)

He's not even a ninja anymore. He's a 'warrior.' So that means that he doesn't need to be stealthy or anything. Other than that, since Riot hasn't really defined his thematics much, we can't say, but judging from that they said it doesn't match what they have in their lore that hasn't come out yet.

VanjieJun 29, 20164 votes

I have to agree. I think they have good ideas but it would be better if these ideas were on other champions. When Riot changes too much about a champion the community always feels like it is something bad. I am happy they kept most of what we liked on Ryze. His new ultimate is a lot better. Riot still kept his identity but added a few twists. They changed Karma and Shen to the point that their identities and what we loved about them is gone.

Mandang0Jun 29, 20164 votes

Here I thought the post would be about both champs lacking strong identities and needing to be overtuned to be decent.

thekingofnidoJun 29, 20163 votes

i hate the new shen. thematically and gameplay

SilverSquidJun 29, 20163 votes

# Shen Shen Shen

VISUALS: I love those. The spells are clear to see, they have that purple, shady stuff that goes SO well with his eyes (no homo). All spells make dodging or getting hit feel relevant. Compare this to using enemy armor as long-distance drum sets every few seconds. Meh.
GAMPELAY: The amount of skill expression skyrocketed. Point and click ability and the simplest of shields, replaced by team utility and unique spells that are fair for everyone. Easy to grasp, can be combined, do what they should. I give it a shen out of ten.
THEMATICS: As if winning the loudest-ninja-in-history-award wasn't enough, Shen now can proudly join the "bulky dudes wielding two handed european swords" club. Because that's what his Ninja Sempai Garen tought him. Why not let Master Yi use a wooden club and MF some foken shurikens, while we are at it. Because consistency.

No, but seriously, if it was a two handed spirit katana it would probably be allright.

# Karma Karma Karma

VISUALS: Waddling across SR with Old Karma had style, but New Karma just looks shiny and juicy overall (don't quote me on that).
GAMEPLAY: Healthier but bland, especially since 5.10. I mean, who wouldn't want her most iconic spell removed to have one of the most despised passives in the game buffed? Genious!
THEMATICS: "What do you mean hurdling green blobs is not a theme? It looks awesome tho, look at that blast and stuff! Her name? What about it? Oh, you mean her name stands for something related to her gameplay? But Akali already uses karmas? I don't get it." -Rioter reworking Karma

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Honestly, if they gave us another fanweapon champion and hadn't killed the shieldbomb, I would probably be okay with it.

EDIT: I now find it kind of romantic that Shen and Karma not only share a dance, but also a problem. And now I already hear the rumbling noise of incoming Sharma ships. Oh dear.

SaltyKrackaJun 29, 20162 votes

Thematically?

It's not great.

But I wouldn't trade all the thematics in the world for how well balanced Shen is right now.

AlwaysByMySideJun 29, 20162 votes

So, what is Shen's theme?

Don't say ninja, because frankly no it fucking isn't. Shen has never acted as a ninja, popping from the shadows to assassinate people. He's always been a tank focused on protecting his team, as well as the quintessential "duelist" tank. His ult is a global "save my carry" button, and his E is great CC for peeling divers or assassins.

So, what did the rework add to follow through with this theme?

Well, his passive is just a better version of the shitty shield he had on his W, enabling him to take more damage so his team doesn't have to. His Q makes him a single target damage threat, chunking squishies and doing solid damage to tanks. It makes diving the carry a very risky prospect. Furthermore, it sets up his W, which is important. Shen's W is an amazing tool to protect your team and yourself from damage, creating a zone where auto attacks can't damage anyone. This is a super thematic ability.

All of these traits also make him a pretty strong duelist. His shield makes it hard to do lasting harm to him, his Q is a good steroid and has great synergy with Wit's End or Titanic Hydra, his W makes him immune to auto attacks (and auto attackers tend to be the best duelists), his E gives him more damage and CC to form them to take his damage as well as set up his empowered Q.

Shen's kit, functionally, is very thematic.

The problem is merely an aesthetic one. Shen's spirit sword looks, well, kind of goofy to a lot of people, and that's understandable.

But why sacrifice a great, healthy, and thematically on the point kit because of how it looks in-game? At best, he would just need an update to the visuals or something to make it look better.

Lady HammerlockJun 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PxmJcc2A,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-06-29T19:37:21.542+0000)

So, what is Shen's theme?

Don't say ninja, because frankly no it fucking isn't. Shen has never acted as a ninja, popping from the shadows to assassinate people. He's always been a tank focused on protecting his team, as well as the quintessential "duelist" tank. His ult is a global "save my carry" button, and his E is great CC for peeling divers or assassins.

So, what did the rework add to follow through with this theme?

Well, his passive is just a better version of the shitty shield he had on his W, enabling him to take more damage so his team doesn't have to. His Q makes him a single target damage threat, chunking squishies and doing solid damage to tanks. It makes diving the carry a very risky prospect. Furthermore, it sets up his W, which is important. Shen's W is an amazing tool to protect your team and yourself from damage, creating a zone where auto attacks can't damage anyone. This is a super thematic ability.

All of these traits also make him a pretty strong duelist. His shield makes it hard to do lasting harm to him, his Q is a good steroid and has great synergy with Wit's End or Titanic Hydra, his W makes him immune to auto attacks (and auto attackers tend to be the best duelists), his E gives him more damage and CC to form them to take his damage as well as set up his empowered Q.

Shen's kit, functionally, is very thematic.

The problem is merely an aesthetic one. Shen's spirit sword looks, well, kind of goofy to a lot of people, and that's understandable.

But why sacrifice a great, healthy, and thematically on the point kit because of how it looks in-game? At best, he would just need an update to the visuals or something to make it look better.

Once upon a time a rioter said how thematically the Shen rework thematically failed,again i realise old shen didn't fit thematically either something your neglecting is it isn't because the spirit blade looks silly or funny,in general it doesn't fit thematically with Shen I'm not even talking about lore here I noted how he has the Karma problem,Karma's problem isn't because of theme issues from lore her name means duality and I see basically 0 "duality" in Karma's kit

ATM you could argue he is one of the most balanced champions in the league,in the long run just like Karma,Shen needs another rework that'd hit the mark thematically

AlwaysByMySideJun 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Once upon a time a rioter said how thematically the Shen rework thematically failed,again i realise old shen didn't fit thematically either something your neglecting is it isn't because the spirit blade looks silly or funny,in general it doesn't fit thematically with Shen I'm not even talking about lore here I noted how he has the Karma problem,Karma's problem isn't because of theme issues from lore her name means duality and I see basically 0 "duality" in Karma's kit

ATM you could argue he is one of the most balanced champions in the league,in the long run just like Karma,Shen needs another rework that'd hit the mark thematically

Shen's problem isn't the same as Karma's. As you said, there's no duality in Karma's kit.

Shen's theme is that of a powerful warrior who protects the weak and fights those who would harm them.

His kit fits that perfectly.

IxtaliKingJun 29, 20161 votes

Maybe if Riot does an Ionian event he could have some work done along with Karma. How big would you want Shen's rework to be?

Lady HammerlockJun 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Maybe if Riot does an Ionian event he could have some work done along with Karma. How big would you want Shen's rework to be?

if an ionian event occurred Irelia Akali Shen need and have to be big targets

but anyways Shen's rework doesn't have to be very big because 2 of his abilities are perfect,being his E and R which need to be kept the same,his new passive atm is actually pretty good however might be changed if another rework is to occur

his Q has to go because the spirit blade feels really weird thematically on Shen and so if his Q goes his W goes,so id say a low scale rework probably the scale of the new Ryze reworking coming up

IxtaliKingJun 29, 20161 votes

if an ionian event occurred need and have to be big targets

I think Irelia and Akali are getting their own reworks regardless, it's just a matter of priority. Meddler said an Ionian event would be a good opportunity to revisit Karma, so I was thinking maybe Shen could fit in there too since he's in a similar situation. I definitely don't believe Shen is in the same bracket as Irelia and Akali or even in greater need than Karma, since she's actually an unfinished rework that needs a VU and a VO update.

his Q has to go because the spirit blade feels really weird thematically on Shen and so if his Q goes his W goes,so id say a low scale rework probably the scale of the new Ryze reworking coming up

Interesting, I wonder what his P, Q and W would be changed to if they did rework him, his E and R do seem way too core to tamper with. How do you feel about his appearance and VO?

Lady HammerlockJun 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I think Irelia and Akali are getting their own reworks regardless, it's just a matter of priority. Meddler said an Ionian event would be a good opportunity to revisit Karma, so I was thinking maybe Shen could fit in there too since he's in a similar situation. I definitely don't believe Shen is in the same bracket as Irelia and Akali or even in greater need than Karma, since she's actually an unfinished rework that needs a VU and a VO update.

Interesting, I wonder what his P, Q and W would be changed to if they did rework him, his E and R do seem way too core to tamper with. How do you feel about his appearance and VO?

His appearance might have to shift again evacuees atm the spirit blade is a part of his champion model but likely nothing to big

and i Think his VO is beautiful and orgasmic

SerBlaiseJun 29, 20161 votes

I believe riot has said they realize the shen rework was failure thematically. The spirit sword thing just doesn't make any sense.

Irelia BotJun 29, 20161 votes

Yes and no

While he does not deliver on the "ninja" concept that well he does have a play style that many people who play him love and would hate to see disappear.

RossendaleJun 29, 20161 votes

Let's be fair though, old Shen didn't exactly fit in with his "ninja" theme either. Personally I think the new Shen is fun as hell to play.

I Never ADCJun 29, 20161 votes

#BringBackTheFans.

ProtestantCaesarJun 29, 20161 votes

I'm genuinely confused. Please explain to me how Shen's rework failed. Is it because his pre-rework lore made no mention of him having a magic sword (which he did, see Vorpal Blade, historically one of the weirdest abilities thematically)? Is it because his pre-rework lore made no mention of him killing spirits?

I like the new Shen. (I liked the old Shen, too, and back when I played Dominion I was a Shen main for a time.) I'm a little worried about getting too attached to Shen now because everyone's saying he needs to be changed again.