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All buffs bruisers have been slowly recieving over last months went to trash with this last patch.

Rexxiee··26 votes·1,904 views

Nerfing precision for bruisers again and klepto for melee (and of course, no buff for the dumpster that is PtA right now), except klepto is still broken on GP (and ezreal) and all the nerfs did was nerf the likes of jax who could be viable with it but not anymore, meanwhile GP still spams Q to win every lane top and to outscale everything.

And if that wasant enough, they went ahead and buffed grasp for ranged (seriously? why the fuck did you have to buff gnar out of everything? just the idea of buffing grasp for ranged or even buffing grasp at all makes me sick) and then they buffed aftershock, so now tanks literally cannot lose to bruisers anymore at all stages of the game, specially since bruisers cannot go klepto anymore and beat the tanks like a pinata to try to atleast generate gold to do something, but no cant have that lets make tanks even stronger!

Ornn is a still a joke to play against and in fact its even harder to lane against if he takes aftershock (by harder i mean literally impossible if he has a finger that can press W on CD btw), good job balance team lmao, the best riven build atm is going aftershock into almost full tank, you just completely killed the little bit of fun that could exist in top lane now its just a complete cesspool with tanks and GP smashing every other champ out of top at all stages of the game, why do you think multiple high elo top laners are quitting the game? STOP SHOVING TANKS DOWN OUR THROAT, WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO VIABLY PLAY BRUISERS INTO SOME FUN/SKILL INTENSIVE 1v1 MATCHUPS, NOT MAOKAI VS ORNN VS GP VS GNAR VS JAYCE VS ANY TANK WITH BRAMBLE VEST OR WHATEVER SKILLESS CANCER EVERY GAME (not even talking about how broken junglers are early game STILL and how they can STILL camp you while losing nothing, top laners are still food for junglers)...

Bruisers are doomed, they'll never be good with the current live design team, actually scratch that TOP LANE IS DOOMED, top lane will never be fun again.

31 Comments

Marshbouy10 votes

Please define "bruiser," because it can mean a lot of different things.

y0r1ck1 votes

Not a tank top laner. There done. That's good enough.

Marshbouy14 votes

Quinn is a bruiser now?

y0r1ck1 votes

I said it's good enough for this discussion. There's always exceptions to the rule.

LVL99 Helper TK2 votes

{quoted}

Please define "bruiser," because it can mean a lot of different things.

Any champ that uses an equal mix of offense and defense, tanky but not given the CC tools tanks have, deals high damage but not as much as an ADC

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

A champion who utilises a mix of offensive and defensive items.

Most bruisers are either fighters(juggs/divers) or skirmishers(not all skirmishers are though). This ranges from champions who build 1-2 offense items to champs who do the opposite and only build 1-2 defensive items.

Some will tell you it's supposed to be limited to melee's but there's a few exceptions (Gnar and Urgot come to mind).

Spoofghoul1 votes

''Bruiser'' Sion item 3047 item 3068 item 3065 item 3071 item 3748 item 3083

doubleguac2 votes

Champs that build a mix of offense and defense. Mostly sustained damage. Need to be tanky to stay in a fight; need damage, because they don't contribute a lot of team CC or utility. Often rush a black cleaver, triforce, or titanic hydra. Historically, they've been strong duelist and laners who peak in the early/mid game and fall off late. Using Riot labels, I'd say "brusiers" includes most of the juggernauts, as well as the heavier fighters.

I think of these as quintessentially bruisers:

Darius Illaoi Irelia Jax Kled Nasus Olaf Shyvana Trundle Volibear Warwick XinZhao Yorick Camille Garen Renekton Vi Aatrox

These are some champs that I would consider being sort of on the edge of bruiser, but not quite: Fiora DrMundo JarvanIV LeeSin Nocturne Pantheon

Critmaster Garen7 votes

i said it once, and im still saying it.

the problem isnt that bruisers are trying to compete with tanks, because despite some tanks being stronger in the early game, bruisers will eventually outscale them.

but the real problem is that bruisers are racing adc to scale. and that race is stacked against them by a 1000 gold and a weaker turret on bot lane with a 550 gold bounty, and a stronger marksmen lategame.

if your bot lane loses, it doesnt matter what the fuck youre doing on top. its at the same time why tanks are the better team picks than bruisers. theyre not pressured to scale and carry. theyll always be useful as second supports.

klepto was a means for SOME bruisers to make up for that absurd disadvantage and get enough gold to be on par with bot lane by the time the lane phase ends. that doesnt mean klepto wasnt broken.

nerf bot lane.

Rexxiee2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PtG5qoqh,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-01-27T15:49:10.110+0000)

i said it once, and im still saying it.

the problem isnt that bruisers are trying to compete with tanks, because despite some tanks being stronger in the early game, bruisers will eventually outscale them.

but the real problem is that bruisers are racing adc to scale. and that race is stacked against them by a 1000 gold and a weaker turret on bot lane, and a stronger marksmen lategame.

klepto was a means for SOME bruisers to make up for that absurd disadvantage and get enough gold to be on par with bot lane by the time the lane phase ends. that doesnt mean klepto wasnt broken.

Bruisers outscale tanks? In what universe are you playing?

You couldnt be any more wrong lmao, it has nothing to do with bot lane, bruisers can still spike hard mid game IF they could actually win lane or force tanks out of lane, but they cant so they just get sht on all game.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers outscale tanks? In what universe are you playing?

You couldnt be any more wrong lmao, it has nothing to do with bot lane, bruisers can still spike hard mid game IF they could actually win lane or force tanks out of lane, but they cant so they just get sht on all game.

if that tank isnt ornn and has a burst combo with multiple % max health damage procs, then after a couple of items they usually do.

but you brought up exactly the issue. bruisers cant just farm out the lane like a tank can and be useful. theyre forced to snowball to hell if they want to have any impact by mid and lategame.

the fact that they need to be able to push the tank around and crush him in lane to be able to keep up with bot lane later is the problem in the first place. tanks just do very well denying them this snowball.

Rexxiee1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PtG5qoqh,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-01-27T15:59:15.666+0000)

if that tank isnt ornn and has a burst combo with multiple % max health damage procs, then after a couple of items they usually do.

buit you brought up exactly the issue. bruisers cant just farm out the lane like a tank can and be useful. theyre forced to snowball to hell if they want to have any impact by mid and lategame.

the fact that they need to be able to push the tank around and crush him in lane to be able to keep up with bot lane later is the problem in the first place. tanks just do very well ind enying them this snowball.

Bruisers > adcs mid game

Adcs > bruisers late game

It has ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THIS and it has never been a problem.

Stop being delusional, the only thing that changed is that back then bruisers would actually smash tanks early game and mid game phase of the game lasted longer.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers > adcs mid game

Adcs > bruisers late game

It has ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THIS and it has never been a problem.

Stop being delusional, the only thing that changed is that back then bruisers would actually smash tanks early game and mid game phase of the game lasted longer.

until you realize that the adc "lategame" fully kicks in by 20 minutes where the bruiser midgame happens to be, because their itemization is much cheaper.

because riot cut game times and subsequently fucked up champion power curves by buffing lategame champions, to hit their power spikes way too early, to compensate. this includes the crit item buffs for marksmen, their kit buffs and buffs to champions like veigar and nasus.

i mean we JUST had another case this very patch of riot buffing the early game of another lategame marksman. Jinx

it all boils down to the fact that riot messed up game pacing and power scaling of champions by trying to cut games shorter, and bandaid "fixed" the issue by allowing lategame champions to power spike early so they can even still exist in the game.

plus the norm right now is that the marksman happens to get turret first blood just because its easier to get that meek bot lane turret with a 3 man push after a gank, than it is to get that top lane turret on your own before the fortification drops off.

this "stonewalling" that tanks do to bruisers in lane is only really a problem because bruisers are required to snowball their lane to even be effective and contribute anything to their team. because theyre effectively racing with bot lane for power spikes. the cheap itemization of both bot laners, and the higher gold generation potential in that lane usually means that bruisers lose this race if theyre not absolutely crushing their lane. which is especially hard, when there is a tank in that lane whos difficult to kill.

Rexxiee1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PtG5qoqh,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-27T16:54:20.417+0000)

until you realize that the adc "lategame" fully kicks in by 20 minutes where the bruiser midgame happens to be, because their itemization is much cheaper.

because riot cut game times and subsequently fucked up champion power curves by buffing lategame champions, to hit their power spikes way too early, to compensate. this includes the crit item buffs for marksmen, their kit buffs and buffs to champions like veigar and nasus.

i mean we JUST had another case this very patch of riot buffing the early game of another lategame marksman. Jinx

it all boils down to the fact that riot messed up game pacing and power scaling of champions by trying to cut games shorter, and bandaid "fixed" the issue by allowing lategame champions to power spike early so they can even still exist in the game.

plus the norm right now is that the marksman happens to get turret first blood just because its easier to get that meek bot lane turret with a 3 man push after a gank, than it is to get that top lane turret on your own before the fortification drops off.

this "stonewalling" that tanks do to bruisers in lane is only really a problem because bruisers are required to snowball their lane to even be effective and contribute anything to their team. because theyre effectively racing with bot lane for power spikes. the cheap itemization of both bot laners, and the higher gold generation potential in that lane usually means that bruisers lose this race if theyre not absolutely crushing their lane. which is especially hard, when there is a tank in that lane whos difficult to kill.

So you realize that its a problem with game pacing, not adcs right?

They made adcs item cheaper because of that in the first place, because adcs needed 35 minutes to scale while games average are 25 mins or lower, crit was a bad stat for quite a while and adcs were basically varus/mf/jhin whatever lethality bots existed.

You know what they should do instead of also power creeping bruiser items? They need to fix the game flow, give us back a laning phase mid game and late game, games are just in turbo mode, then they can make IE cost 3800 again and give more stats, etc.

Also jinx was buffed mid game, not early or late, her early/late were nerfed, which is why her WR went down with his patch not up.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

So you realize that its a problem with game pacing, not adcs right?

the problem WAS with game pacing. and then they buffed every single crit item and made it a problem with adc.

and no, crit wasnt "bad". crit was as good as it always was. better even since there were more crit items to stack with each other. crit just wasnt as cheesy as lethality on marksmen.

it didnt give them a 15 to 20 minute power spike like lethality that marksmen werent supposed to have in the first place. now it does, and its even worse than lethality because crit builds power spike fast and dont fall off.

there are 3 issues with the game right now.

1.) game pacing is trash and games end too fast mostly because of snowball due to global mechanics changes that were already done since the start of season 6 (turret first blood, 10 seconds increased death timers, global gold changes, weaker turrets, split pushing minions).

2.) lategame carries power spike too early because riot bandaided the shitty game pacing by fucking up lategame champion scaling to run away too early.

3.) lethality vs. crit on marksmen. lethality needs to be weaker on ranged carries than on melee assassins than before, because otherwise the lever would just constantly flip between crit marksmen and lethality builds dependent on which stat you buff or nerf.

lethality builds might just need a slight cost increase to slow them down, while zeal items need a good 300 gold increase in price each.

part of the reason why crit builds became cheaper and kick in sooner is also because crit items are soo easily possible to rush now. with runes like fleet footwork and increased support shielding and healing, marksmen can just skip the ~3500 gold price range lifesteal items and can just go for another 2600 gold zeal item instead. this means there needs to be an equally large price increase to slow these zeal stacking builds down.

Mordepool2 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers > adcs mid game

Adcs > bruisers late game

It has ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THIS and it has never been a problem.

Stop being delusional, the only thing that changed is that back then bruisers would actually smash tanks early game and mid game phase of the game lasted longer.

Right now it's ADC > bruiser mid and lategame though

NemeBro3 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers outscale tanks? In what universe are you playing?

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Sion/Top/

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Malphite/Top/

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Ornn/Top/

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Maokai/Top/

Notice how, other than Ornn (who is mostly the same), all these tanks' win rates spiral downward as you reach late game, with Sion's power curve being the most slanted towards being stronger early.

By comparison:

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Camille/Top/

Camille, as always, scales very well.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Riven/Top/

As does Riven.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Fiora/Top/

And Fiora, despite her going the weakest late game keystone (kleptomancy).

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Aatrox/Top/

Even Aatrox's win rate by game time shows a spike late game, though in his case his play rate is rather low.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Nasus/Top/

Nasus, while being strongest in the mid game, still has a very solid late game win rate.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Jax/Top/

And Jax of course only gets stronger as he gets more items.

Of course, then you have bruisers like Kled, Yorick, or Urgot who, yes, are bad late game.

But as a class (implying bruisers are a real class lul)? Bruisers don't necessarily scale poorly. Some scale well, some don't.

Grimspeake4 votes

Didnt jax have a really good winrate top tho

Mordepool3 votes

{quoted}

Didnt jax have a really good winrate top tho

If toplane doesn't influence the game at all. Then wouldn't that winrate be more indicative of the marksmen in that game

Rexxiee3 votes

{quoted}

If toplane doesn't influence the game at all. Then wouldn't that winrate be more indicative of the marksmen in that game

I honestly dont know why ppl around here thinks adcs are the ones deciding the game, this is not ardent meta anymore, poeple need to get behind their bias and look at the facts, i say this as someone who plays both top and adc, if anything JUNGLERS right now have almost all of the game impact.

Adcs are strong but they do not have much agency on the game unless you're playing the absolute top 123 adcs of the patch, you can go play adc but your game is going to be decided 9 times out of 10 by which jungler/support is better, almost no role has any agency on anything atm its just junglers spamming almost 0 counterplay ganks (you know, the whole lvl 3 full health double buff lee/khazix/whatever walking up to a gank a lvl 2 solo laner 2:30 minutes in) and supports and tanks buying overpowered items (further promoting 0 skill gameplay), the whole game itself is in an awful state with no signs of it getting any better.

"oh riot is going to put mages bot lane now over adcs!" Yes, that will totally fix the top lane issues and you know, we totally needed another lane for mages to be in with cancer shit like azir, never mind that with the current balance team we know for sure its going to be a disaster, either its going to do nothing or its going to powercreep mages into beyond overpowered levels to the point where adcs join bruisers as an unplayable class and ppl just pick 2~3 mages per team with tanks, so instead of fixing bruisers and top lane they just want to make bot lane just as bad as top lane lmao.

Man this game is on a steady decline.

I Love Roses1 votes

Yeah sure man

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

Didnt jax have a really good winrate top tho

Skirmisher.

He's not considered a bruiser.

DragonShea1 votes

I am always living the life of an underdog. Top lane for lyfe.

Forhonor3211 votes

At this point, I've just given up on top lane. I'd rather be learning how to play mid better or pick support now than play top just due to the state it is in. I don't feel the fun anymore by picking someone that isn't top 20 or whatever winning in or is OP in that lane.

Bruisers are a fucking joke right now and at this point I'm hoping Hashinshin keeps up ranting about it so maybe Riot can actually respond to it and get it fucking fixed.

EchigoKid1 votes

Specifically in regards to the Ornn part of your post, he doesn't honestly seem like that big of a deal right now. Aatrox into Ornn is like the most free lane I've ever played by a long shot. Sure his early is a little difficult to manage due to W but you don't honestly have to worry about that basically from the moment you get a tiamat.

Right now Ornn only really beats some tanks and Panth. Not a huge amount of favorable winrates currently.

Hexs Fortune1 votes

Is press the attack weak right now?

Rexxiee1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PtG5qoqh,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-01-27T18:18:17.828+0000)

Is press the attack weak right now?

Yes, its awful on both bruisers and adcs.

LemurMonster1 votes

Gnar isn't a tank really though, more of a marksmen fighter. It's really easy to burst him down.

I Love Roses1 votes

So you say xin zhao and champs like shavana is bad?

DJOKER1 votes

Riot: Top lane is finaly Deleted.

Iffy Jarl1 votes

didn't they nerf aftershock and make it more viable for bruisers with cc? tf is this guy talking about, how broken junglers are early? all junglers? like seriously dude move this to memes and games plz

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