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Someone has to say it and i will say it

Ahristocats··26 votes·1,864 views

Kog needs a fcking VGU already, and i know he won't get one which is why this makes me insane

Kog is one of the most broken champion in the game above d2/d1 and players who play in this elo KNOW IT https://euw.op.gg/champion/kogmaw/statistics/adc

all of the statistic you need are here not only he has 52.5% win rate and 15% pick rate

dude has 15% ban rate in plat+ which is translated to 100% ban rate in high diamond because no one from plat to low diamond will have the idea of banning him

dude STARTS THE GAME WITH 50% WIN RATE HELLO? one of the strongest carry in the game starts the game with an insane safe laning phase as W costs 40 mana and allows him to poke in lane he starts the game with 520 hp and 57.5 ad, XD?

this just reminds me twitch that starts with 51% win rate

and then, what's the worst thing of kog's design?

https://youtu.be/mfSYfElHxr0?t=303

DUDE IS A FCKING 700 RANGE JUGGERNAUT, he abuses on-hit effect items, then gets 3k hp 300 ad 1.9 as 110 MR and kills anyone in 2 hits and he gets to deal AOE damage with runan, shreds everyone with Q because HE DOESNT NEED A SINGLE ARMOR/MR PEN DUE TO THIS

you can't even itemize against him because he deals physical damage, magic damage, %HP damage "but he's immobile", lol yeah, being immobile while having 700 range, item 3022 slow and being tanky is sure a drawback, and when he gets stormraider/warlord bonus ms he's sure immobile while having a slowfield in front of him and a Lulu

but why does it matter if he's immobile? he's able to 2 shots every single assassins getting into him, why bother trying to escape?

just rework this on-hit effect abusing kit, it's so insane that people complain about vayne when vayne(except when Q can crit) cannot do this

39 Comments

Malicious Metal17 votes

Kog'Maw is an ancient design and requires some heavy retooling. He was reworked once and it was atrocious to play against him.

Honestly, he needs to get an actual identity beyond "dump all your shields on me and we win 100%"

Ralanr9 votes

Imo he's the most extreme example of how hyper carries are design, which makes me question if hypercarries are a good design philosophy or are only there due to poor balancing in much older games that lead to this idea.

Ahristocats3 votes

Caitlyn is a hypercarry

has 2 choises: -rightclick people to death and lose a ton of damage because her base AS is garbage AS/lvl is garbage, and passive takes a shit ton of time to stack since runnan nerf -play around trap and net to proc headshot, both have counterplay

cait is the healthiest hypercarry in the game

Ralanr2 votes

This is after her early has been weakened to not be a lane bully correct?

Ahristocats5 votes

they nerfed her early game waveclear

the only nerf she got was base AS nerf+runnan nerf like 5 patches ago, and AS/lvl nerf 3 patches ago? then last patch they nerfed her late game trap damage and early game waveclear

overall current state of cait: strong lane poke, weak midgame, strong late game if she plays around traps and net while having a garbage as in late game

Blåbæret4 votes

{quoted}

Imo he's the most extreme example of how hyper carries are design, which makes me question if hypercarries are a good design philosophy or are only there due to poor balancing in much older games that lead to this idea.

Hyper carries have never been good design. Auto winning late game because of one champ is dumb as heck.

pixelvoxel2 votes

Vayne Tristana Twitch

AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Salson4 votes

They can be, Fiora has her vitals, GP has his barrels, Zigs has 4 skillshots and Jinx needs a kill to really let lose.

Kog is free, and so are the shields he gets.

Miror B1 votes

The problem of course is that many of those characters need a few items to be a somewhat relevant threat. Fiora can outduel pretty much anyone once she gets cleaver+rav, gp can 1-shot most squishies after IE+tf, even ziggs only really hits that "Sweet spot" after you get 2 AP items. With current kog, you're looking at a character who can get a bork and instantly ruin most things around him. Add in the fact that he's almost exclusively played botlane and not mid (where he usually has access to a support capable of providing him free shields or the cc he needs pre-hammer), and you have a hypercarry who would theoretically be perfectly balanced in solo lanes but is instead pretty awkward in botlane.

Weathered8 votes

Kog'Maw's winrate for Diamond/Masters/Challenger over the past month for ranked in EUW for context are 52.12%/55.97%/56.13% respectively.

Just for comparison, the top winrate of an ADC in those same qualifications are 54.75%(Draven)/59.42%(Twitch)/64.29%(Draven) respectively.

His ban rate is 14.06% (again, with euw.op.gg because that's what OP used). The highest current ban rate is Kassadin with 72.04%.

Penns5 votes

adcs in general are broken high elo tho hehe

A lot of that is also Ardent, but I feel like his low cost low cooldown W is too strong in lane.

Ahristocats6 votes

{quoted}

I feel like his low cost low cooldown W is too strong in lane.

it is, but don't forget that he does a lot of damage in lane with that, watch the korean high elo kog playing in lane, and watch his damage in lane

his poke is insane

AirKingNeo4 votes

I've got a few points to make.

he starts the game with 520 hp and 57.5 ad, XD?

How good is this compared to other ADCs?

he abuses on-hit effect items

Watch your buzzwords. It isn't abuse. He's supposed to build them.

you can't even itemize against him because he deals physical damage, magic damage, %HP damage

Being a hybrid champion is actually weakness, not a strength into the late game. Sadly, Kog has percent % damage unlike the other hybrid champions, so he doesn't fall off like the rest.

"but he's immobile", lol yeah, being immobile while having 700 range, item 3022 slow and being tanky is sure a drawback

I was talking about Mallet when he had 5.0 AS. Why the fuck hasn't this been changed?

he's able to 2 shots every single assassins getting into him, why bother trying to escape?

That's just assassins and ADCs in general right now. Assassins suck, but this would never be something popularly supported despite all evidence because the boards just hate assassins.

Revert Rageblade btw. That might hurt Kog late scaling a bit.

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

How good is this compared to other ADCs?

if you take vayne for instance who gets qq'ed on board, she has 490 base hp and 55 base ad

and yes, 2 ad can make a huge difference please don't pretend it's nothing more ad in early game is: -better poke -better last hit -better sustain with doran blade

{quoted}

Watch your buzzwords. It isn't abuse. He's supposed to build them.

which is a problem, because unlike other adcs who build crit kog goes full on hit deals hybrid damage and gets to be tanky with shit like frozen mallet, just watch the video above

he becomes a ranged juggernaut

{quoted}

Being a hybrid champion is actually weakness, not a strength into the late game. Sadly, Kog has percent % damage unlike the other hybrid champions, so he doesn't fall off like the rest.

ok, that's still a problem

{quoted}

That's just assassins and ADCs in general right now. Assassins suck, but this would never be something popularly supported despite all evidence because the boards just hate assassins.

u rite

OVERALL his design is still a problem, you literally have no reasons to pick urgot when kog exists

plus his counterplay is inexistant, being immobile with 710 range is a not a weakness in high elo believe me

AirKingNeo2 votes

Yeah, Kog'Maw with mallet is a problem.

I'd say make it melee only, but then no builds it. Probably just remove it from the game and make a new item melees can use better.

Should complain if bruisers get no new items this preseason btw. No reason why every other class gets a class update to break the game with new items while Riot shafts bruisers and proves they intend to do so.

fééd l0rd4 votes

Kog is just so strong cause of ardent meta... any assassin makes kog die instantly, peel supports who embrace ardent prevent that too easily.

Riot needs to nerf shield supports, their items and if kog still is a problem we can nerf him too

UF Dan3 votes

I'm D2 and I've definetly seen my fair share of kogmaws who absolutely stomp lane phase and rape the rest of the game (usually by thr hands of chall smurfs). I think his laning phase is what needs a bit of tuning, he can be pretty oppressive at times, besides that its just this shield jan/lulu meta that heavily favors him.

I don't think he's insanely broken tho. I don't see him being played that much either.

The Vayne QQ threads are fucking ridiculous tho lol. Come say hi: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/s4Z5XMw1-how-to-make-a-vayne-qq-thread-9-ez-steps

chipndip13 votes

Calling bullshit.

Dude's using general win rate/play rate stats for Plat+ play to state that Kog'Maw is "broken" in high Diamond, but tells me I'm shit at the game for opening everyone's eyes to Janna's nonsense like a week or so before now using similar arguments for a champion with a significantly higher win rate and play rate.

On those grounds, you should "git gud".

Ahristocats1 votes

i call you bullshit yeah because i don't care about his winrate/pick rate in plat+, what i care about is that he's permabanned in high diamond i also never said janna is fine, i just said your argument on her was bullshit everytime

also for sure, i'll get good and dodge kog's attack range from 700 units

chipndip13 votes

My reasons for why Janna wasn't fine was as follows:

  • Her kit is incredibly simple, yet covers nearly EVERY defensive function a support could want. NO I don't think people on here are simple enough to NEED someone to list them all, but if it's THAT IMPORTANT, it's a shield, an aoe heal, a slow, a multi-man knock-up (which is just a better stun), a speed boost when moving towards her when she's a back line champion, and an aoe knock-back. ALL THIS for defense/disengage on one champion with an incredibly forgiving skill floor.

  • Her win rate was higher than I've honestly ever seen since I started this game two years ago. It was also higher than when you yourself were complaining about Lulu being broken.

  • Her play rate was encroaching 33% while STILL having that massive win rate. So she's basically floating on by, allowing people to scoop up freelo with that massive win/play rate.

  • Your stats say "Plat+". The stats I cited specifically said Diamond+. There's no filter for "Diamond 1/2". Anything blanket claim you make about that elo range is your own guesstimate based on your experience. Hell, even when you said she isn't a problem in your elo range and no one picked her, 4 out of 20 ranked games in your history at that time had Janna in them. In the tiers past Diamond, Janna had a strong showing, too, but you dismissed it because it was Challenger. Like where does one win with boundaries like that?

And as an added note, I already dug up quotes on you telling others to "git gud" and to stop complaining about Janna. It's such a snake-thing to do to try to scurry over to the other side after insulting me over something you were entirely wrong about.

You're using the same main points I used for Janna on why Kog should be dealt with, but you can't see the hypocrisy in you dissing me when I used those arguments for Janna.

Ahristocats1 votes

i'm amazed how you decided to turn this post into a janna post

i don't care what are your reasons those who tell me that my mains aka juggernuats are countered by janna when i destroy every janna team with them are doomed to be downvoted and called bullshit by me

quite simple, you don't need to write an essay

chipndip13 votes

It isn't a Janna post. It's a highlight of your hypocrisy and lack of credibility using a recent example. You can have your opinion, but you were wrong on a number of points from before while still having the audacity to mock me out of thin air. THEN you go on and make a post like this one? OF COURSE I'm gonna call it out.

The Deckowner3 votes

he's able to 2 shots every single assassins getting into him, why bother trying to escape?

That actually applies to every single "immibile hypercarry" in the game, which is sad.

nm10102 votes

I remember I made a thread a month or two back when I was looking at Koggles, nearly 3k hp with decent resists with 1k dps to 3 targets by abusing on hit effects seemed broken as fuck.

Big Lincoln2 votes

if he won't get one why don't we just gut him hehe

;) no agenda here ;)

Kariu Rena2 votes

Lol no mobility hurdur by boards standards hes allowed to stay broken along with twitch xd

Blåbæret2 votes

Kog is ridiculous. He doesn't even need items to deal dumb damage. Lvl 1 Kog is as scary as a Draven, just ten times more braindead.

Salson2 votes

Nah, the real reason Kog is broken in high Elo is because he isn't supported by Lux, Teemo, Riven or Udyr... or played as support.

Tldr: How do you balance a champion that is comp dependent? By the best or the worst comp their teammates can cook up.

And nerf Ardent Censer.

SanKakU1 votes

Please don't hurt my Kog'maw!

Sejuani [zombie-nunu-tears]

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

if any ADC needs a VGU its a vayne

atrocious, ancient design that is just a ball of stats and click-to-win effects

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsJE8O76,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-08-11T21:53:21.687+0000)

if any ADC needs a VGU its a vayne

atrocious, ancient design that is just a ball of stats and click-to-win effects

Vayne is hardly click to win. Easily the most difficult ADC to play properly.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

draven is harder, so is kalista. vayne is difficult because shes short range, but not inherently mechanically intensive

the only way you fail as vayne is if everyone gangs up on you and uses chain cc, which is the way you kill any fucking champion

elsewise its up to you as the vayne to fuck up and your opponents often have no say in the matter. she has terrible design everything is either point and click or a passive effect or a stat boost. there is no counterplay to her when ahead and when behind shes one of the worst adcs in the game

Jalkan1 votes

My only wish is for item 3124 item 3085 to be removed and item 3078 to get reverted so I can play Triforce Kog once again.

Arakadia1 votes

Most of your complaints seem to be about Kog'Maw using items anyone could buy and abusing them. Runaans is why he does tons of AoE damage. I've never seen a Frozen Mallet on him but its what makes him tankier and slow people. The items seem to be making a lot of his problems.

He does however need a VGU.

Although he is far from a 700 range juggernaut. Thats just bullshit exaggeration.

Mizaya1 votes

Not at all surprising. People call Vayne a tank shredder, but Kog outshines Vayne at that by a mile. Given his range and synergy with Runaans and Ardent, you just turn on W and start shredding through any frontline. And this is in a meta of tanks and peel supports, both to his favor. And I've said this already, Ardent Censer gives him 150+ healing on every auto when rageblade is stacked to 6, which is at least 300+ healing a second late game. All of this on-hit synergy and rageblade come together to create a monstrosity.

LadyRenly1 votes

if the game was balanced for diamond+, sure you'd have a point. Nerf Kog. But they don't. Otherwise blitz and master yi would get nerfs every patch.

Clementine1 votes

Lots of champs are long overdue for VGUs

Aatrox Akali Chogath DrMundo KogMawUdyr Zilean Mordekaiser Volibear

Kayle Morgana are getting theirs together which is cool

Nyarlathοtep

Wait what. Do i really hear, or rather read, a complain about kog? Oh boi. I dont get why you complain about his current position when before 5.22 he was almost the same, except some numbers.

insane safe laning phase as W costs 40 mana and allows him to poke in lane

And before 5.22 it didnt cost mana. Also his poke at the first couple of mins it isnt anything to be afraid. Its far better to focus on creeps and scale up to become the late game monstrosity.

DUDE IS A FCKING 700 RANGE JUGGERNAUT,

Thats a problem with the item. Not kog.

he abuses on-hit effect item

True. I really would prefer it if riot would try to give him an incentive to buy crit items.

then gets 3k hp 300 ad 1.9 as 110 MR

The items are the culprits. Btw the clip its not that really good at pointing out his brokeness (is this even a word) . I mean, even ashe with 15-4-2+full build can seem like she has no counterplay/ be overbearing. Everyone is stupidly strong if fed like in this clip.

you can't even itemize against him because he deals physical damage, magic damage

This is actually a good chance to ask something thats being really bugging me. Isnt the trade off of dealing hybrid dmg that you cant really buy penetration items?

AwesomeGuyDj3 votes

{quoted}

This is actually a good chance to ask something thats being really bugging me. Isnt the trade off of dealing hybrid dmg that you cant really buy penetration items?

He already addressed this. It doesnt matter, he has built in shred with %hp dmg.

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