PSA ADC players: if the enemy has two tanks, don't build lethality

HateDaddy··88 votes·4,470 views

then wonder why you do no damage

89 Comments

Rexxiee54 votes

But boards told me lethality is broken and that tanks are weak and they get 3 shot by duskblade.

Just Blame Jenny33 votes

It's 1 shot you noob wow!!

Ralanr3 votes

What tanks are actually complaining that duskblade alone one shots them?

BC, lethality, and LW? That puts a hefty dent in tanks that makes lethality seem like bullshit. But lethality on its own? No.

TEA Nietzsche 2 votes

Firstly, only one ADC builds all of those (Lucian. MF sucks against tanks anyways). Secondly, you can't rush ARPEN because that way you will lack waveclear and overall damage. Without AS you won't deal damage to tanks anyways. Thirdly, even if you have it you spend so much gold on fighting tanks that it's pretty shitty against 1/2 tanks. But nowadays people still are able to pick 3 tanks (or more, as has been evidenced by LCS) which shows that tanks are strong enough to be stacked despite people counterbuilding them.

Lethality + ARPEN takes too many itemslots and is still not as effective as crit/as + arpen. Lethality is only good against squieshies, period.

Ralanr4 votes

[{quoted}](name=AI LMAO ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PnREs0af,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-23T20:35:51.602+0000)

Firstly, only one ADC builds all of those (Lucian. MF sucks against tanks anyways). Secondly, you can't rush ARPEN because that way you will lack waveclear and overall damage. Without AS you won't deal damage to tanks anyways. Thirdly, even if you have it you spend so much gold on fighting tanks that it's pretty shitty against 1/2 tanks. But nowadays people still are able to pick 3 tanks (or more, as has been evidenced by LCS) which shows that tanks are strong enough to be stacked despite people counterbuilding them.

Of course you can't rush LW on an ADC. No one fucking does that, it's more of a late game purchase. And to address your third point, see below.

Lethality + ARPEN takes too many itemslots and is still not as effective as crit/as + arpen. Lethality is only good against squieshies, period.

Of course Lethality+Armorpen isn't as effective in damage as crit and pen. It will never be damage wise. That's not the problem, the problem is when it is decent enough so that the ADC can build Lethality+Armor Pen and be decent at killing tanks while being a squishy burster. Normally crit does this as well, but Crit takes much longer to stack up (the only reason why tanks are early to mid is because the items that counter them are bought late after all that damage is bought).

Just straight lethality is not killing tanks. The only way lethality starts to hurt tanks is when you combine it with LW, BC, and/or Bork. So anyone complaining that lethality alone is one shotting tanks better show video proof because I call bullshit on tanks being the ones complaining about lethality.

And for the three tanks thing, I've seen at max two tanks picked. What are the tanks being played in the LCS?

TEA Nietzsche 1 votes

{quoted}

Of course you can't rush LW on an ADC. No one fucking does that, it's more of a late game purchase. And to address your third point, see below.

So your complaint is that full build ADC's deal damage?

Of course Lethality+Armorpen isn't as effective in damage as crit and pen. It will never be damage wise. That's not the problem, the problem is when it is decent enough so that the ADC can build Lethality+Armor Pen and be decent at killing tanks while being a squishy burster. Normally crit does this as well, but Crit takes much longer to stack up (the only reason why tanks are early to mid is because the items that counter them are bought late after all that damage is bought).

We have a meta where you really can't have too many tanks so I highly doubt that a build that is suboptimal against tanks is viable. It's only viable when you play against a shitty comp and in that case the comp is to blame.

And for the three tanks thing, I've seen at max two tanks picked. What are the tanks being played in the LCS?

Wut? There have been even games where we saw 7 tank comps..

Toplane its Shen, Maokai, Cho, Galio, Gnar honorable mentions: full tank Renekton, full tank J4 - they may not be the tank class but all the arguments regarding builds and counterbuilding tanks apply

Jungle: Cho, Sejuani, Gragas, Maokai, Nunu, Zac, J4 even Amumu a few games

Mid: Galio

Sup: Braum, Tahm'Kench, Taric, Thresh, Alistair, honorable mention: tank rakan

2 tank comps are pretty squieshy nowadays, less than 1 tank is pure troll. This is probably the tankiest series so far.

Ralanr3 votes

My complaint is that tanks complaining about lethality is bullshit.

Karfuss2 votes

Made me laugh. Have an upvote.

Literally the only tanks struggling in this meta are the ones that are kitable. It's no surprise that Garen, Darius etc players believe ADCs with Duskblade are disgustingly broken.

If tanks were as bad as they say, we'd have an ADC/Bruiser Heavy Top meta again. We don't.

Ralanr7 votes

Garen and Darius aren't tanks wtf.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Oh look. Backlash from 2 years of bullshit lies and whining about tanks getting two shot. Yay.

Thefrostyviking16 votes

Oh silly OP, haven't you heard? Marksmen are godly toxic OP bs champs that 2 shot anything in range.

Including tanks

It's completely preposterous to think that a build used by marksmen would fail to accomplish this, clearly there is something wrong if this happens.

Anything that contradicts the picture of marksmen being BS OP is absolutely not acceptable on these boards.

Scary Door4 votes

You win my heart and my upvote. It's good to see not everyone is on the "ADCs are OP" circlejerk here.

Thefrostyviking5 votes

I honestly understand people who state that they feel it´s unfair that marksmen can scale up to a point where it's possible to just kill the opponents with a few autos as long as they avoid a spell or two and then heal any damage taken fairly quickly.

However saying that all of them have godly damage and melt tanks in seconds and claiming that they are impossible to kill is absolutely ridiculous in my eyes, just a few nights ago i played Seju into a team with 3 ranged AD.

Graves, Quinn and Varus.

Graves was running lethality/armor pen,

Quinn lethality/crit.

Varus crit and botrk.

At a teamfight around lvl 17 i think, i had max build and i ran right into all three of them while their alistair dived into my team.

So i was left to tank them to prevent them from following up on ali, and with my passive, then stoneplate and sheer tankiness i managed to hold them in place for 12 seconds and i got out alive after that too.

Which was mainly because Varus and Quinn didn't have armor pen, however still.

IF marksmen really were so OP why can a single tank endure abuse from 3 of them at once when 1 of them had armor pen, 1 has a % Hp burner item+kit and the third was average?

It just feels so silly when someone starts crying that marksmen are OP and kill tanks too in a few shorts when at the same time Seju can go enduring so long and get out alive no problem x)

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

Because marksmen are perfectly fine.

The problem is there are several players here on boards who happen to main immobile fighters like Darius, Morde and Garen, and can't deal with the fact they are not the main carry on their team, so they start like 6 hate threads a day.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Perfectly fine is a bit of a exaggeration tho, Draven and Twitch are quite toxic to play against altho not OP. ' Cait and her Traps are super frustrating because they activate too quickly.

Executioner1 votes

Someone saying something logical? Holy fuck get out.

I always thought it was the items, that are a bit... you know strong? Never blamed the adc, and never will. I just find the items a bit overwhelming.

The reason you lived was no crit I take it right? No crit, just armor pen stuff and raw phyiscal damage with what 1.20 to 1.5 attack speed? Being generous on the attack speed too.

Never mind looked at the game. I found it. That was a pretty interesting game. Though that zed was hella fed, geez. Looking at his build, wouldn't be surprised if he one shots the varus, quinn or graves.

But man look at all that squishiness, im not surprised they lost.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

It was quite awkward actually, because Zed felt so strong he kept walking around and lethality graves literally had like 3 times of 2 shotting Zed causing us to fall into a mess.

Then there was Quinn going around and pouncing on Jinx constantly as well.

Which only made it more fun when i nearly killed Graves and Quinn 1v2 twice before their ali showed up.

And i do think Varus and Quinn had crit however as mentioned they didn't have armor pen, only graves did.

DaNinad6 votes

I really want a tank meta. There's no one shotting without counterplay, and even in tank metas, usually tanks can't carry unless its a jungler tank

Edit: One tank does not define the meta. Cho is broken. Sejuani and zac are debatable but are pretty close to broken.

Mizaya3 votes

{quoted}

I really want a tank meta. There's no one shotting without counterplay, and even in tank metas, usually tanks can't carry unless its a jungler tank

Yeah, but unfortunately Cho'Gath is part of the tank meta.

chipndip12 votes

Chogath ?

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

I really want a tank meta. There's no one shotting without counterplay, and even in tank metas, usually tanks can't carry unless its a jungler tank

We're in a tank meta. And tanks like Cho'gath are one-shotting people because people on this board think stoneplate + feast is acceptable for some reason lol

Durzaka3 votes

Having a couple of tanks being strong/viable does not automatically make it a tank meta.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Having a couple of tanks being strong/viable does not automatically make it a tank meta.

Chogath Gragas Sejuani Maokai Braum Galio Nunu RammusTahmKench

These are all meta tanks right now, in top/jg/support and mid in Galios case. Hardly only "a couple."

Durzaka2 votes

Galio has drastically fallen out of favor and his win rate plummeted since the dorans nerf, in case you didnt notice.

Braum and Tahm have never gone anywhere. And really dont contribute to the conversation at all.

Nunu is half a support half a tank. Which leaves Cho Grag Sej Mao and Rammus. 2 of those have been meta for a very long time now. Which leaves 3 new tanks being viable/meta right now.

Arsenic Sulfur8 votes

...But then you get these unkillable walls that just body-block all of your damage and smack you over the head with a pool noodle filled with sand.

Tank meta is bad in a different way than most other metas.

TEA Nietzsche 2 votes

"without counterplay" - yeah tell me more about YOUR inability to counterplay.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

And don't blind pickJhin

BoilTheOil1 votes

why

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

cause against tank, saying he's weak isn't even enough^^

DaNinad3 votes

item 3036

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

Are u serious ?? Jhin is really bad against tank, dominik dosn't change it.

DaNinad1 votes

gives him 35% bonus armor pen and gives 10% bonus damage. True he isn't the best adc to kill tanks, but he can still kill tanks pretty well

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

He's the worst adc against tank. For obvious reason.

Mizaya2 votes

{quoted}

gives him 35% bonus armor pen and gives 10% bonus damage. True he isn't the best adc to kill tanks, but he can still kill tanks pretty well

Watch the difference between a well-itemized Jhin hitting a tank vs a well-itemized Kog hitting a tank. It's pretty amazing how much more damage Kog can do to multiple tanky targets while Jhin is hitting only one.

ninjaroxas2 votes

little unfair comparing him to one of the best tank killers

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PnREs0af,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-23T15:43:13.954+0000)

Are u serious ?? Jhin is really bad against tank, dominik dosn't change it.

lmao

If Jhin goes full lethality, yes he will be bad against tanks. If he goes traditional crit + percentage pen, Jhin MELTS tanks.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

He's bad in both cases. But with crit he deal some damage. But when i say he's bad im comparing him to other adc. Even without comparing it, Jhin lack of AS.

chipndip11 votes

Just build him crit?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

still sh*t, he lack of as

chipndip11 votes

Loads of AD from his passive and the fourth shot executes?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

take too much time.

Arsenic Sulfur1 votes

What breaks a tank's shell is attrition and constant damage. Jhin can't deal constant damage so he just gets smacked silly by the tank's respectable base damages.

Hiroe2 votes

Lethality is an early-mid game stat though, before your opponent bulks up. You are usually best to snowball and win the game quickly, however if the game reaches late game, wouldn't it be plausible to buy an armor penetration item?

junglerboy164 votes

Ironic thing is tanks are early-mid game champs, and the strongest way to out-scale a tank is with % armor pen and crit damage (or a ton of true damage, but that's less normal)

After a tank's first full armor item, lethality begins to become pretty ineffective unless you're already far ahead in levels (something pretty uncommon for an ADC in a duo lane)

Hiroe1 votes

But if you are able to snowball, it's a stat that can be used correct? Seems like a good investment to make to end the game quickly. You are correct as it falls off, but I've seen a decent amount of games where bot lane gets fed.

junglerboy161 votes

It could end the game quickly before when items gave flat pen (since you could invest early for virtual true damage until late game), but the way they have reworked it into lethality, and now again with the personal level scaling, it is actually gated from being a strong early game stat since you don't get close to full armor pen per lethality values until late game, now it is just a strong anti-squishy stat.

Basically, if you are snowballing hard enough for lethality to make a difference in how quickly you end a match, the enemy team is already so far behind that it's inevitable, and you're simply saving 2 minutes off a 25 minute stomp.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Lethality is an early-mid game stat though, before your opponent bulks up. You are usually best to snowball and win the game quickly, however if the game reaches late game, wouldn't it be plausible to buy an armor penetration item?

Lethality + %pen is only going to be good on a few ADCs (Jhin for example because of built-in crits and executes). However, lethality in most cases shouldn't be built when behind. You just won't do damage to tanks like this. If you're ahead, of course it works because just about anything works when you're snowballing.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Also, don't lock in Jhin if you face a tank heavy setup. He may overall be a strong champ, especially with lethality, but he's still probably the worst adc at takeing on tanks.

Hèntaî 2 votes

Idk man, that 4th shot really fucks 'em up. Especially if he builds a domi

M Dragon143 votes

It's not that good. Jhin has poor sustained DPS for an adc, and sustained DPS is what kills tanks.

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