Late game hasn't really existed much at all this season, so it would be nice to see some more changes to push the game more in that direction. I like how baron was given more hp because people rushing it down at 20 minutes really made games snowball faster. Please continue to push us more into a longer game direction Riot. 15-20 min stomps suck.
Jbels24 votesLate game never exists because bot lane has been popping off WAY too early due to jungler influence and Support Gold Value. If Crit becomes a lategame stat, we'll start to see late games happening again. The only problem with that is, Assassins just got Stormrazor. Better ban Rengar
Z3Sleeper11 votesStormrazor got a pretty good change on the PBE to prevent nuclear bursting. Now it's just flat damage rather than Rengar's or Zed's multiplicatively increased total AD times 2.
Speeedy2 votesstormrazor was a much needed change because rushing it first item was incredibly broken, especially with cait. You litterally just run up AA someone kite back wait to the timer to refresh, rince and repeat. You automatically did more damage then your opponent with little to no counterplay. The only way i found to beat it was to have a support that can all in you easy, but some assassins with it you die even quicker than before and when you die in less than .3 seconds from full HP with ninja tabis its not really fun
junglerboy162 votesFunny how people complain so hard about Stormrazor's first version when Ashe used to have almost the same mechanic through her original passive, but people thought it was utter shit.
Not that I care, just an interesting observation of how times have changed...
Z3Sleeper2 votesCuz it went against her identity to be the permaslow adc.
They chose permaslow ashe over the hit and run ashe
50000000000000001 votesShe also couldn't attack anything, including minions, if she wanted to get passive stacks.
Auz the Ripper3 votesAlso her passive didn’t come up after only 2.5 seconds
DestructoDave8 votesLate game never exists because bot lane has been popping off WAY too early due to jungler influence and Support Gold Value. If Crit becomes a lategame stat, we'll start to see late games happening again. The only problem with that is, Assassins just got Stormrazor. Better ban Rengar
No, it'll be like it was before when crit scaled too slow.
Utility ADCs and champs who spike off 2 cheap items will become the meta.
Before, when crit was scaling way too slow, the meta was nothing but 1-2 item lethality users and utility ADCs.
I can see the On-hit ADCs being even stronger, and utility ADCs maybe coming back if it ends up like that season. Why play something that takes 3 items to even become relevant when you can play one of the on-hit rageblade users who can spike at 2, and actually be useful before 30 minutes. Same with utility ADCs.
HàrrowR3 votesWhy were you down voted for saying something that's so true you can just look at top tier picks at those seasons where crit was more expensive,they were all Utility adcs 
or Lethality 
since literally getting 1 item on them meant you could blow up an enemy adc,so why bother rushing crit
DestructoDave2 votesWhy were you down voted for saying something that's so true you can just look at top tier picks at those seasons where crit was more expensive,they were all Utility adcs
Because people either didn't play then, or they didnt realize it, or they just flat out hate ADCs. Even when ADCs are weak, even if its a damn Ashe, if someone dies to an ADC kiting them out they will come to this forum and whine about it. They will run at the adc, probably waste their gap closer getting there, get kited out late game, come straight to the forums to cry about how easy right clicking is. Thats just what people here do.
HàrrowR1 votesTruer words have never been spoken
Shablagoo1 votesStromrazor is viable on rengar anymore and prolly wont be if the current one goes out.
Daddy Ants1 votesLate game never exists because bot lane has been popping off WAY too early due to jungler influence and Support Gold Value. If Crit becomes a lategame stat, we'll start to see late games happening again. The only problem with that is, Assassins just got Stormrazor. Better ban Rengar
Stormrazor got changed, It's definitely NOT a general Assassin item anymore.
It's more tailored to Marksmen.
EDIT: OK maybe Rengar and possibly Shaco might value it. No one else tbh
Stormrazor [New item in testing with Marksman/AD item changes!] AD increased from 55 to 65
Unique Passive effects changed:
"UNIQUE Passive - Storm's Edge: If you haven't attacked for 2 seconds, your next basic attack deals +50 damage (increased by your attack speed).
UNIQUE Passive: When you apply Storm's Edge or critically strike, gain 8% attack speed for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times."
Indeed, a lot of people like to ignore diversity within a role and just state something that seemingly implies that all champs in the role are the same and anything that breaks past the norm of say a tank being able to soak damage and CC is OP or overloaded.
I´d personally find this game quite boring if all champs in a class were essentially the same but with different themes and nothing more x)
And while on the topic of role diversity, some marksmen actually prefer the early or even the midgame over the lategame, but that does of course not mean that their late is weak, its just not as good as the truly dedicated ones like kog.
If they snowball it will still feel like a lategame champ got ridiculously powerful even early, Lucian is a perfect example of this.
And while i do find it annoying that some people seem to think that things like Ashe≈MF≈kog≈vayne etc i still think that there needs to be a basic floor at times......for otherwise the disparity in performance will just be too great.
For instance, there is basically no comparing a MF vs a Varus/kog in terms of tank killing ability even at 3-4 items.
Kog/varus will melt the tank in about 7 seconds, MF will at need anywhere between 30-50 seconds to do the same if they dont facetank her entire ulti.
Ashe would at 3-4 items need about 20-40 seconds depending on which tank.
Such large gaps in performance are also in a way harmful when looking for diverse picks.....but at the same time that difference is also what makes those picks diverse in the first place.
Diversity is a difficult thing at times i think x)
MF can rip tanks apart if she takes Conqueror. She's one of the best ADC users of it next to Draven.
Ok sure but why3 votesWell, late game might start existing if this happens tbh
Not really, because tanks are still broken beyond repair
Colton14710 votes[{quoted}](name=Ok sure but why,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PiQ2l7HW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-10T04:04:14.612+0000)
Well, late game might start existing if this happens tbh
Not really, because tanks are still broken beyond repair
All tanks that aren't 
, 
, 
and 
are below a 50% win rate...
(46% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/ornn/statistics/top
(48% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/shen/statistics/top
(46% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/tahmkench/statistics/support
(49% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/maokai/statistics/top
(48% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/chogath/statistics/top
(50% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/malphite/statistics/top
(47% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/poppy/statistics/top
(50% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/leona/statistics/support
(46% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/sejuani/statistics/jungle
(47% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/zac/statistics/jungle
(47% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/thresh/statistics/support
(49% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/braum/statistics/support
(50% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/alistar/statistics/support
(46% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/galio/statistics/mid
(49% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/nautilus/statistics/support
(45% win rate):
http://na.op.gg/champion/gragas/statistics/jungle
Marothennan5 votesAll tanks that aren't
But how are Alistar and Malphite below 50% if they are at 50%? Edit: Just noticed Leona is at 50% too
HàrrowR5 votesThats called bias my friend,he flat out said ill show you tanks that are bellow 50% win rate and then he puts 3 tanks in there that are at 50% win rate,meanwhile
Xayah 49.93% Vayne 49.28% Kalista 43.92% Lucian 48.76% Kog Maw 49.88% Tristana 49.33% Ezreal 49.10% Cait 49.02% Varus 48.20%
By that same logic ADCs are weak,yet here we are 40 ADC hate threads a day talking about how strong they are and how much influence they have and how fast they come online.
I hate when people pull stats,especially winrates as a measure if something is broken or not,i mean Yas could have a win rate of 1% and i'd still ban him every game cause i don't want to face that toxic windwall
AlienPrimate2 votesADCs don't have competition though. They have their own role so if some of them are struggling, that means others have to be excelling. 99.9% of games have an adc on each team. This guarantes that one will win and one will lose every single game.
Tanks have a different story though. You can potentially have 3 or 4 tanks on one team and none on the other. Tanks compete with fighters and mages in top lane, mages and enchanters in support, and assassins and fighters in jungle. There is very rarely a tank in middle lane.
ChaddyFantome1 votes{quoted} There is very rarely a tank in middle lane.
Yea, the only ones that ever show up is Galio an the occasional AP Malphite. xD
Colton1471 votesBut how are Alistar and Malphite below 50% if they are at 50%? Edit: Just noticed Leona is at 50% too
SenorBobbers5 votesAll tanks that aren't
Gotta love kids who quote win rates like they're the bible to balance. lmao
Dont shush me you sack of shit. No one fucking agrees with you.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesBUT TEH WINRATE REEEEEE
PB4UAME15 votesThis circle jerk need to die, tanks are the lowest performing class holistically at the moment.
Most of what you probably think are tanks, are not.
What if I told you none of these are tanks?
saltran3 votesThis circle jerk need to die, tanks are the lowest performing class holistically at the moment.
Most of what you probably think are tanks, are not.
What if I told you none of these are tanks?
The only one there I would call Tank is Cho Gath, or you can also call him an ap juggernaut.
Z3Sleeper5 votesNah the guy doesn't have to build a lick of AP to do damage due to his high bases and health scalings and has health increases and CC in his kit.
Dudes a complete tank now with a not-so-viable off-meta AP build.
PB4UAME1 votesRIOT classifies Cho'gath, along with champions like Singed as "SPECIAL PLAYSTYLES" which do not fit into any subclass cleanly.
ZackTheWaffleMan1 votesIf Cho'Gath isn't a tank, what is he?
Ryusaether3 votesA Juggernaut that can nuke a squishy and have some CC but no dmg threat other than his nuke, in exchange for more survivability.
PB4UAME1 votesRIOT considers him a "special plystyle" ala Singed.
Somewhere between juggernaut and battle mage.
Metal Janna1 votesThis circle jerk need to die, tanks are the lowest performing class holistically at the moment.
Most of what you probably think are tanks, are not.
What if I told you none of these are tanks?
Yep that Mundo isn't a tank at all. He just absorbs more damage than nearly any other champion throughout a match. Definitely not the defining characteristic of a tank.
Ryusaether4 votesYet he isn't a tank tho. No CC, no means to peel for allies, just a walking meatball that has great health regen and deals a good chunk of damage.
That reminds me of someone who isn't a tank
Metal Janna1 votesYet he isn't a tank tho. No CC, no means to peel for allies, just a walking meatball that has great health regen and deals a good chunk of damage.
That reminds me of someone who isn't a tank
Since when is having CC a requirement for being a tank? And he does have peel. He has a decent ranged slow, enough AOE damage to threaten an entire team if they ignore him, and enough tankiness to require a whole team to take down. When he walks into the five man deathball, the enemy team has to choose between all of them receiving a steady tick of damage or wasting all their damage output on the tank for the next 3 seconds. Not that i'm complaining. It's a tank's role to wade into the enemy formation and give his team time to pour on the damage. I'm just saying that he has the tankiness to be considered a tank, and fulfills a tank's role for his team. That makes him a tank.
Ryusaether2 votesYeah but he doesn't have any kind of displacement and his slow is simgle target and unreliable, while instead he has a lot of damage. Usual Tanks have tools to engage/disengage/displace enemies ( etc.) or Utility in special cases .
Mundo is the definition of a freight train juggernaut ( ). I know he has some way to peel but it's nothing compared to a tank that can stunlock an enemy or a team, or even Darius would be a good peeler (death is the best CC).
I see your point, but I don't agree on the definition of Mundo as a Tank.
PB4UAME2 votesYou are entirely right, he is a meat wall, a damage soak, but he definitely does not have the defining characteristics of a tank.
He does not have crowd control to peel for allies like a Warden, nor does he have ANY initiation tools to speak of, nor any form of lockdown as again, he has no CC beyond a minor single target slow, so he absolutely cannot be a vanguard. Additionally, there is no way for him to generate aggro, nor a compelling reason for him to be focused before literally anyone else on his team.
Auz the Ripper1 votesAdditionally, there is no way for him to generate aggro, nor a compelling reason for him to be focused before literally anyone else on his team.
His damage is a very compelling reason for him to be focused You know, like the other juggernauts
Ceazaru2 votesThis circle jerk need to die, tanks are the lowest performing class holistically at the moment.
Most of what you probably think are tanks, are not.
What if I told you none of these are tanks?
honestly I wouldn't be surprised because I play some of the champs you pointed out.
are Juggernauts. Juggernauts build some resistances but their resistances are not on par with tanks and the biggest thing that separate juggernauts from tanks is the lack of hard cc.
are Divers while they can also build they are also not on par with tanks and mostly have sustain in their kits. Divers also can into fights with ease but have no real escapes.
is unique.
Thefrostyviking3 votesOne of the issue´s causing "lategame" to feel like it doesnt happen is the fact that midgame was kinda skipped over.
Old times marksmen would have a phase between laning and the lategame where they either got kills and snowballed or got stagnant and struggled to accomplish much for a time.
With crit being a great deal more expensive and item reliant (you need more crit items) we effectively get a situation in which most marksmen wont snowball so hard so quickly even if they get kills early, just because they need that much more gold.
Which effectively fixes most of the crit snowball complaints i think.
What i am scared of however, is the so called early game transition builds.
Builds that start with 
for instance, the item is getting price buffs (as in getting cheaper) and isnt far from being reverted to its 7,9 state when it was the go to item for almost all marksmen.
It made them much stronger early/mid but a bit weaker post .....mid-mid game up to lategame where they became really strong again.
Then we have the big fish of 
becoming total armor pen rather than bonus armor pen.
This will definitely cause a lot of issues related to and , both can use lethality and LDR becoming total armor pen is essentially a pretty large buff towards those builds.
Anyone remember the god of forth? You better start praying now or by the time the 4th (shot) comes towards you it´ll be too late.
Well i am relatively fine with it all, i mainly play Ashe when botlane so i´ll get around^^
HàrrowR2 votesWhy is yours,and apparently eveyone elses measure of late game how many crit items an ADC has,i mean when i play mid or jg i really couldn't care less how many items the enemy adc has,i mean if i play 
(keep in mind those are just the champs i play mid/jg) i feel like i can stomp pretty hard too,i mean most of the time i have the most damage when i play AP mid,if not then im second only to the adc and only by a few K damage,i focus on my own items and the game
Thefrostyviking1 votesBecause of circlejerk mainly x)
Do keep in mind, most of those who do not leave feedback more than "nerf them outa the game" tend to just hate on and blame marksmen for everything.
They couldnt kill that fed mage because said mage was sitting next to a even botlane that had like lulu+varus who CC'ed them to death?
Botlane OP, plx nerf.
Their 1v5 outplay failed because of lulu polymorph and they died before it even got over when that Draven threw a few axes over to their glass cannon ass?
Nerf `dat botlane, too OP.
I myself also think there are champs who can legit carry and be strong in other lanes, but the circlejerk will deny this by any means necessary as it undermines their "argument".
But i wont argue that there are no issues with botlane though, for that is true, so i am happy to see changes.
Another point i think, is the fact that marksmen are probably THE lategame class, so much of their identity is supposed to be connected with "lategame" so when they break away from that people naturally grow discontent, happens the same when tanks start doing damage and other stuff on the same line really.
Jbels1 votesBecause of circlejerk mainly x)
Do keep in mind, most of those who do not leave feedback more than "nerf them outa the game" tend to just hate on and blame marksmen for everything.
They couldnt kill that fed mage because said mage was sitting next to a even botlane that had like lulu+varus who CC'ed them to death?
Botlane OP, plx nerf.
Their 1v5 outplay failed because of lulu polymorph and they died before it even got over when that Draven threw a few axes over to their glass cannon ass?
Nerf `dat botlane, too OP.
I myself also think there are champs who can legit carry and be strong in other lanes, but the circlejerk will deny this by any means necessary as it undermines their "argument".
But i wont argue that there are no issues with botlane though, for that is true, so i am happy to see changes.
Another point i think, is the fact that marksmen are probably THE lategame class, so much of their identity is supposed to be connected with "lategame" so when they break away from that people naturally grow discontent, happens the same when tanks start doing damage and other stuff on the same line really.
Similar, but it's still different. When a tank begins to do above average damage, even if its only a little, EVERYONE shits on them with "NERF NERF NERF". Every time we try to defend our numbers with "we fall off though", it doesn't matter. When an adc begins to do more damage than they should be doing, watch somebody say something about it. Literally every ad main on the boards will swoop down and call your arguments bullshit, despite the fact that their champion IS currently overtuned. There might be two circlejerks, but both of them are against tanks and for adcs
Thefrostyviking1 votesWhen people are saying that "tanks do too much damage" its usually the majority of them doing it, often by means of some items or simply a bunch of them getting buffed-
The reason many marksmen pop out when someone says "marksmen are overtuned"? Its because usually there are no more than 3-4 marksmen at a time who could be considered strong/OP.
But by saying marksmen OP they are basically saying that even the low key ones like Ashe are OP and doing too much damage, which in turn provokes in this case the Ashe players, like myself admittedly, out to come and complain x)
Then the ones who are bad with tanks like MF as well will come out and complain about that Sejuani/rammus never even getting close to dying.
Of course there are times when similar things happen to the tanks with a few being OP but all of them being called out for it.
Lack of specifications causes misunderstandings and a lot of circlejerking unfortunately :(
Jbels2 votesWhen people are saying that "tanks do too much damage" its usually the majority of them doing it, often by means of some items or simply a bunch of them getting buffed-
The reason many marksmen pop out when someone says "marksmen are overtuned"? Its because usually there are no more than 3-4 marksmen at a time who could be considered strong/OP.
But by saying marksmen OP they are basically saying that even the low key ones like Ashe are OP and doing too much damage, which in turn provokes in this case the Ashe players, like myself admittedly, out to come and complain x)
Then the ones who are bad with tanks like MF as well will come out and complain about that Sejuani/rammus never even getting close to dying.
Of course there are times when similar things happen to the tanks with a few being OP but all of them being called out for it.
Lack of specifications causes misunderstandings and a lot of circlejerking unfortunately :(
Yeah, I mean how many people these days still think Juggernauts like Mundo and Darius are tanks? It's getting absurd at this point
Thefrostyviking1 votes.....I had no idea that was even a thing anymore O_O
.....Or well, in mundo´s case i guess it makes sense, he can legit build full tank and do well, meanwhile Darius will usually never be a true tank no matter how he tries.
HàrrowR1 votesSo youre saying there's no ADC hate circlejerk,cause i think i could find at least 5 threads in the last 24 hours talking about how much they hate ADCs and how op they are cause they died to a 6 item 20/2 Vayne
Jbels1 votesSo youre saying there's no ADC hate circlejerk,cause i think i could find at least 5 threads in the last 24 hours talking about how much they hate ADCs and how op they are cause they died to a 6 item 20/2 Vayne
No, what I'm saying is that despite there being ADC circlejerks, they are nothing compared to the sheer hatred everyone seems to hold against tanks. Tanks wouldn't be allowed to be viable if the majority of the playerbase has its way
HàrrowR1 votesI honestly think its a problem when people start grouping a whole class that can contain 20 + champs under the same general guidelines,like how you said,people complain when Tanks deal damage but don't realize there's offensive and defensive tanks,yes,Ornn can deal a lot of damage in a teamfight while throwing CC everywhere,but he can't do what Shen does,he cant give your team mate a shield and teleport to him from anywhere on the map,he cant taunt that enemy to attack him and then block his attacks.
Its the same with ADCs,they are at their BEST late game when they have six items due to how crit scales with other items,but that doesn't mean they should automatically be weak and useless early,i mean they still have a lot of disadvantages even late game,building full damage makes them the squishiest champ on the team,having no inbuilt resistances or shields (except Kaisa ) also doesn't help,along with the fact that they usually have some soft CC or no CC at all and that means that they are trading quite a few things for that damage and usually means they have to be protected in order to be useful,i think that's enough of a trade off,no need to make them useless until 70 minutes into the game.
Not to mention how many people argue that they shouldn't be mobile,shouldn't be able to 1v1,should instadie to anyone who catches them,shouldn't have access to lifesteal,and finally shouldn't have crit,it should be deleted,if this looks extreme to you then you're normal,cause i'm not making this up,i've seen a lot of people request a lot of these things and get up voted. Its like they don't understand that a class of over 20 champs needs diversity,not every ADC should look and play exactly like Kog Maw,a turret adc that needs to be protected by 4 people in order not to die and deal damage,some are duelist,some are artillery mage/adc hybrids,some are even assassin hybrids,some are AD casters etc. Every one of them has a distinct advantage/disadvantage,i mean Vayne has a good 1v1 and mobility but if your team protects your ADC perfectly then i see no reason to pick her over Varus that can also root an entire enemy team basically while also poking and bursting down people with his abilities and making picks with his ult
Thefrostyviking1 votesI honestly think its a problem when people start grouping a whole class that can contain 20 + champs under the same general guidelines,like how you said,people complain when Tanks deal damage but don't realize there's offensive and defensive tanks,yes,Ornn can deal a lot of damage in a teamfight while throwing CC everywhere,but he can't do what Shen does,he cant give your team mate a shield and teleport to him from anywhere on the map,he cant taunt that enemy to attack him and then block his attacks.
Indeed, a lot of people like to ignore diversity within a role and just state something that seemingly implies that all champs in the role are the same and anything that breaks past the norm of say a tank being able to soak damage and CC is OP or overloaded.
I´d personally find this game quite boring if all champs in a class were essentially the same but with different themes and nothing more x)
And while on the topic of role diversity, some marksmen actually prefer the early or even the midgame over the lategame, but that does of course not mean that their late is weak, its just not as good as the truly dedicated ones like kog.
If they snowball it will still feel like a lategame champ got ridiculously powerful even early, Lucian is a perfect example of this.
And while i do find it annoying that some people seem to think that things like Ashe≈MF≈kog≈vayne etc i still think that there needs to be a basic floor at times......for otherwise the disparity in performance will just be too great.
For instance, there is basically no comparing a MF vs a Varus/kog in terms of tank killing ability even at 3-4 items.
Kog/varus will melt the tank in about 7 seconds, MF will at need anywhere between 30-50 seconds to do the same if they dont facetank her entire ulti.
Ashe would at 3-4 items need about 20-40 seconds depending on which tank.
Such large gaps in performance are also in a way harmful when looking for diverse picks.....but at the same time that difference is also what makes those picks diverse in the first place.
Diversity is a difficult thing at times i think x)
LordGeovanni3 votesCrit isnt becomming a purely late game stat you get the same amount for when you reach the same point you lose % boost but it ignores more armor and on top of that they are increaseing the ad. Its gonna be exactly the same or stronger with the same 
/
+ 
combo
