Riot nerfs Varus because "Getting Sniped off-screen isn't fun" Few months later they release Zoe...

Aimléss·Jan 2, 2018·82 votes·4,143 views

This level of contradiction is what really frustrates players. If Riot believed that to be true then fine; but to slap us in the face by adding a champ that not only half healths you from fog but can flat out one shot you from fog after saying that is like me telling kids not to light fireworks in the house cause they'll scare people, then later that day drive to Walmart and light some in the store because why simply contradict myself when I can make a complete 4 dimensional 180 flop of my beliefs...?

TLDR; Title

119 Comments

lolipopevelynnJan 2, 201847 votes

riots explanations on why they nerf a champion is bull shit 90% of the time.

BunnymapJan 2, 201838 votes

Ekko fares pretty well against mages when his cool downs are up, so we’re giving him the tools to engage more often

PopcornBunniJan 3, 201815 votes

Zed could be a little bit stronger right now, but we believe his burst damage is at a pretty sweet spot already. So instead, we're giving the Master of Shadows more opportunities to out-maneuver his opponents and use Living Shadow to do more ninja stuff. This helps Zed control minion waves, split push, and find more windows to use his abilities more aggressively.

AirKingNeoJan 3, 20189 votes

Brmable Vest exists, so rather nerfing Bramble Vest, we're buffing Fiora because fuck Aatrox.

Troll for TrumpJan 3, 20187 votes

Same with their buffs sometimes too

KoutetsujôJan 3, 20185 votes

AP assassins instant burst is not healthy for the game so we are delaying their burst to add some counterplay. item 3147 released Adcs point and click nukes

PROJECT KatarìnaJan 3, 20187 votes

ahem "Dark Harvest" drops mic

KoutetsujôJan 3, 20186 votes

Drops balance

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 3, 201828 votes

Now I don't agree Zoe is fun to play against, healthy for the game or even balanced, but Riot didn't contradict shit by nerfing Varus and releasing Zoe. Mainly because they never nerfed Varus because 'getting sniped off screen is never fun', they did it because him being a Q-bot made him a pain to balance and the rest of his kit pointless.

Your quote couldn't be more bs when the literal quote towards the nerf was; “why take the risks associated with basic attacking if safe Q spam works just as well?”

I've always wondered why posts like these grab traction when the quotes and information provided are complete bs. Varus was never nerfed for that reason.

His Q was so reliable and strong it made AAing, His W passive and E essentially useless. As a result they nerfed Q and incentivized him to play more into a AA focused Kit that uses his Q as a fallback. Which is in the long run is a lot easier for Riot to balance, as every time Lethality was strong he was fucking cancer. His Q had WAY too much potential to just kill people off screen allah Nidalee Q. And before you come out with "But Zoe does it" Well Zoe's Q doesn't pass through every unit it hits either which was probably the biggest reasoning behind the nerf.

Z3SleeperJan 3, 20183 votes

Also cuz Varus Q is fast as hell.

DauntJan 3, 201810 votes

I've always wondered why posts like these grab traction when the quotes and information provided are complete bs.

Then they ask themselves why nobody takes boards seriously.

LOSINGISMYPRIDEJan 3, 20181 votes

so zoe isnt a QBOT ?

Sexy Jack RabbitJan 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

so zoe isnt a QBOT ?

Never implied she wasn't tbh. (Although tbh I personally think her E is significantly more important to her relevance as a champion)

It's just that Varus's entire kit became redundant when his Q was overtuned. Whereas at least with Zoe you'll be using your whole kit.

Sona PingJan 2, 201816 votes

{quoted}

This level of contradiction is what really frustrates players. If Riot believed that to be true then fine; but to slap us in the face by adding a champ that not only half healths you from fog but can flat out one shot you from fog after saying that is like me telling kids not to light fireworks in the house cause they'll scare people, then later that day drive to Walmart and light some in the store because why simply contradict myself when I can make a complete 4 dimensional 180 flop of my beliefs...?

TLDR; Title

Varus and Zoe are two different champions with different abilities that function differently. That is more than enough reason to treat them differently.

"Riot nerfs Varus because 'Getting Sniped off-screen isn't fun' " Even if that was actually, literally written, it doesn't matter. We all know by now Riot tries to be a "fun" company and put in dad jokes and snarky quips regardless of the situation, even when they shouldn't. Like patch notes.

AimléssJan 2, 201815 votes

We're not talking about their differences, we're not talking about the range of their abilities, or the psyche of Riot Devs. All I'm saying is Zoe can snipe from fog and Varus could snipe from fog but he got nerfed for it because they said it's unhealthy. That is a contradiction, so no matter what you say, that fact still remains.

nyakasgoodsJan 3, 201815 votes

Caitlyn can snipe you off screen. Karthus can snipe everyone off screen.

When Varus was nerfed he took a small hit to his damage (-15% AD ratio on fully charged Q) but the main nerf was increasing the cd of his sniping tool from 8 to 12 unless he used autoattacks beforehand.

Zoe can only reliably snipe you if she lands her bubble (which can be blocked by a beefier target unlike Varus Q by the way), and its cooldown is...

drumroll

14 seconds, going down to 10 if she hits something at max rank of the ability.

She has much less consistent damage than Varus so getting into her range and punishing her for messing up is a lot less dangerous, and unlike Varus she can only really hit one target at a time. The two champions are different, and should be balanced differently.

T4underboltJan 3, 201810 votes

Varus doesnt take 75% of hour hp lvl3 with one ability nor 90% of your hp after getting 900 gold worth of item and has actual mana costs. Also varus when set behind is useless. Zoe can still nearlh oneshot enemy squishies regardless.

TehNACHOJan 3, 20183 votes

Cool. Zoe doesn't do that either.

The steam lifeJan 3, 20183 votes

Yeah but he also has autoattacks an ult his e and his w. Also since you apparently haven’t ever played against Zoe it takes two abilities to get anywhere near the damage you claim. In addition in general those two abilities are the only ones she has so.

It’s a little something called power budget.

General Esdeath Jan 3, 20182 votes

She can just Q all day until you make the mistake or get creep blocked or sniped from fog

SpecterVonBarenJan 3, 20184 votes

Zoe's kit is also designed for doing this, using her Q+E+R to get her maximum Q damage while Varus was just using one ability without using the rest of his kit to snipe someone, so he was not only sniping people, he also had other abilities to fall back on for situations that his Q poke wasn't good for.

MuffledGarbageJan 3, 20183 votes

ok so then should Jayce be buffed so he can deal 90% of anyone's health from fog of war every 10 seconds because he is differently balanced?

if anyone questions it, the answer is "He's a different champ so all champs should be balanced in different ways"!!!

See the flaw in logic?

If ANY CHAMPION IN THE GAME is allowed to deal 90% of any other champions' health at level 2 using 2 abilities, they are overpowered.

In this case, that champion is Zoe.

Zoe deals the same damage people complained about Varus for in the lethality meta.

The difference?

Varus ran out of mana FAST, Had longer cooldowns, Was vulnerable to anyone who could get close to him, his damage was cut in near-half if anyone bodyblocked his Q,

Zoe will basically never run out of mana after grabbing Lost chapter, Her Cooldowns are all short and insanely forgiving, Her damage comes in an AOE for her Q which has a sizable hitbox, She has no clear weakness.

Caitlyn's ultimate is just that, an ULTIMATE. It is relegated to one move that has a low base damage, a moderate cooldown, and a high AD scaling( of which Caitlyn hardly builds so her ultimate isn't likely to be a large damage nuke unless she goes full lethality).

Karthus has over 10+ ways of countering his ultimate: item 3157 , Fizz E , Fiora W, Bard ult, Elise E, Kayn ult, item 3156 , item 3155 , item 3190 , item 3401 , item 3193 and many, many more ways.

Zoe's kit has very little counterplay other than "dodge the nuke or you die" which is a huge problem because even if someone fighting against a Zoe doesn't die but gets hit by ONE stray Q or E, that person is forced to recall and lose whatever farm they WERE going to get before they were hit ONCE.

Even a full Lux QER +auto combo at level 10(with Morello) will not deal 90% of a Zac jungle's health(also level 10) who has item 1401 item 3065 meanwhile Zoe (also level 10 with Morello) WILL DEAL 90% of a Zac jungle's health who has .

Ban Lee I IntJan 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Caitlyn can snipe you off screen. Karthus can snipe everyone off screen.

When Varus was nerfed he took a small hit to his damage (-15% AD ratio on fully charged Q) but the main nerf was increasing the cd of his sniping tool from 8 to 12 unless he used autoattacks beforehand.

Zoe can only reliably snipe you if she lands her bubble (which can be blocked by a beefier target unlike Varus Q by the way), and its cooldown is...

drumroll

14 seconds, going down to 10 if she hits something at max rank of the ability.

She has much less consistent damage than Varus so getting into her range and punishing her for messing up is a lot less dangerous, and unlike Varus she can only really hit one target at a time. The two champions are different, and should be balanced differently.

Wait, you mean to tell me, an adc has more constant damage than a mage? Wow, who knew! Really tho varus is fine and was fine, I don't know any video of varus 1 shotting someone with his q at 1 item but if you can show me thats pretty neat.

Sona PingJan 3, 20186 votes

{quoted}

We're not talking about their differences, we're not talking about the range of their abilities, or the psyche of Riot Devs. All I'm saying is Zoe can snipe from fog and Varus could snipe from fog but he got nerfed for it because they said it's unhealthy. That is a contradiction, so no matter what you say, that fact still remains.

Okay, ignoring relevant information, that's where we are at already. Nevermind that there is still no context. Nevermind that we are ignoring the champions. Nevermind that the core of the issue, the "snipe from frog" has 2x the capability on the champion which got the nerf. Nevermind that that "snipe from frog" is a capability of every champion with a ranged ability, it just has to be about Zoe, doesn't it.

For a discussion, feel free to provide such context, since apparently the only place that quote is found on the internet is you, and form an argument. Preferably one that acknowledges champions, because having a Q with range beyond sight range is going to have a different effect on say Blitzcrank than it would on Brand.

NiamhNyxJan 2, 20189 votes

Thing is, she can only hit you with her Q if she is close enough for you to see her, unless she is hidden in a bush. Next her little sleep bubble MOVES SO GOD DAMN SLOW! Its easier to dodge than a corki rocket.

AimléssJan 2, 20182 votes

Just because it has weaknesses doesn't change the fact that it's off-screen sniping.

BeatzBoyFTWJan 2, 20186 votes

With weaknesses, unlike Varus who already has to do it from a long range distance. Let's not be ignorant, shall we?

GreeNzJan 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Thing is, she can only hit you with her Q if she is close enough for you to see her, unless she is hidden in a bush. Next her little sleep bubble MOVES SO GOD DAMN SLOW! Its easier to dodge than a corki rocket.

Lol I love dodging Corki rockets, and Blitz Q's...

SeilleasJan 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Thing is, she can only hit you with her Q if she is close enough for you to see her, unless she is hidden in a bush. Next her little sleep bubble MOVES SO GOD DAMN SLOW! Its easier to dodge than a corki rocket.

Corki rocket isn't a CC, Corki rocket doesn't boost damage of next damage, Corki rocket isn't as long ranged when going through walls, Corki rocket needs to be dodged only once, Corki rocket isn't followed by a Oneshot ability of Q which you can´t dodge reactively cuz its too fast. Corki can´t move across the whole screen and back in 1,5 seconds, Corki can´t pick up enemy summoner spells to get even bigger advantage by making enemy use them.

The Corki is just a reference.

RNG Tyler1Jan 2, 20188 votes

A few years after they release and remake Xerath

Azure HamsterJan 2, 20185 votes

I love sniping people offscreen.

Caitlyn

ZapMyHeartJan 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Hamster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JHwlcBjc,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-01-02T20:39:50.723+0000)

I love sniping people offscreen.

Easily blocked by teammates, needs vision to actually activate, and high cooldown due to it being her ult.

TeCoolMageJan 3, 20184 votes

But her Q is actually short range and her R puts in her in danger so she's nothing like Varus and Xerath! /s

T4underboltJan 3, 20182 votes

You are not in danger if you oneshot enemy or bring him down to 90% hp mearly instantly.

TeCoolMageJan 3, 20182 votes

Woosh

Z3SleeperJan 3, 20183 votes

lol you even put the /s too.

Smh humanity use your brains.

Who is TaliyahJan 3, 20184 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ool5ZGxtj4U

DarkSunSovereignJan 3, 20184 votes

Implying Zoe isn't shit

At least she's predictable as fuck and has shitty waveclear

CarnicoreJan 3, 20183 votes

Zoe's Q can be body blocked (even by minions) and it's a very slim projectile. Very different spells. I think it would be more fair to compare it to Nidalee's old spear.

CHODES AND LOADSJan 3, 20183 votes

and zoe ball explodes into a pool that continues to zone the fuck out of you or flat out just forgive missing in the first place by still hitting anyway

SaiannaJan 3, 20183 votes

Riot nerfed Garen to the ground for a goddamn year, then relased Darius which was triple as annoying to deal with.

Riot nerfed Nidalee spear and then relased Varus

SpecterVonBarenJan 3, 20182 votes

I mean... I'll give Zoe one thing, at least most of her kit is designed around doing this unlike Varus who was doing it with just one ability.

MuffledGarbageJan 3, 20185 votes

Zoe's kit revolves around being able to do this every 7 seconds.

Varus's kit allowed him to do this every 11 seconds AT MOST(That's with a really un-optimal CDR based build that would have dealt a lot less damage)

At the time when Varus COULD actually do half health people with one Q, his E and ult damage was still sub-par and didn't deal as much damage, which MORE than justified the Q damage. Varus couldn't spam his Q because of a high mana cost and a high cooldown.

Zoe's E buffs her Q damage(which is already one of the highest scaling moves in the game), her Q is spammable and takes next to no mana. Her utility scales with enemy summoner spell/item usage which forces enemies to avoid building any active items(which some characters like Akali Taric Singed Janna and Katarina need to enhance their kit to the max potential)

In other words, Zoe snipes people to death every 7 seconds AND does it better that what Varus did during the lethality meta.

There was a limit to Varus during the lethality meta unlike Zoe whose limits are hardly in place. Zoe's weaknesses are also covered by her abilities:

"Play assassins and jump on her", Zoe in the loading screen will see the assassin and be prepared to ONLY use her E when the assassin has jumped on her which prevents her from having one of her "greatest weaknesses".

"Play manaless champs and outlast her mana costs", Zoe's mana costs aren't even REMOTELY high enough to be balanced. If a Zoe takes item 3802 then she will effectively NEVER run out of mana.

"go behind minions", Zoe's Q at level 3 is able to 2shot the caster minions if Zoe moves back for the initial prime and forward for the extra damage. This plus a lack of mana issues is what makes Zoe too strong.

Zoe is overpowered due to all of these factors.

Lethality meta Varus wasn't even overpowered due to the fact that he still lost any even(1v1,2v2, etc.) fight to tanks, divers, and assassins.

Zoe covers her own weaknesses WHILE stopping a lot of enemies from using their strengths(The lack of summoner spells that can safely be used by enemies in addition to the unsafe-itemization that is created when Zoe exists on an enemy team)

SpecterVonBarenJan 3, 20182 votes

I'm making no argument about balance, all I said and all I meant is that I would give Zoe at least that almost her whole kit is designed to do this.

The steam lifeJan 3, 20181 votes

We all know this is a lie. Let me explain to you why. 1. Zoe’s e cdr is 14 seconds until she starts building cdr. It’s not that easy to hit in lane given all the minions (imagine hitting a nidspear as midilee). 2. Varus’s q has a larger hit box longer range and can go through minions so it’s a much more effective poke tool. 3. You’re lying varus max q cdr is about 7 give or take and can be reduced further if you pop a blight stack on the opponent. 4. She essentially has no damage besides her eq. All 4 of varus’s abilities do damage and provide other bonuses. 5. She’s still really weak to assasins because Zoe’s aren’t 100% perfect in landing their e’s every single time and even if they were they’re close proximity to her limits her damage. In addition her e takes 1.5 seconds to proc after a decently long windup time which is definitely enough time for an assasin to burst. 6. Is she isn’t using her e then she isn’t poking you so where’s the problem. 7. Lethality Varus was a massive problem because there was essentially no counter play to his lane except survive and he still was decent mid and late game If a poke comp was built.

I don’t really get what you mean by unsafe itemization. And yes she has the ability to gain summoner spells in place of an ability. It’s not like it’s her passive it’s something that is literally useless until condititions are met and sometimes is still useless. Like you could get a flash but you could also get a ghost or a cleanse against a zed. And these only last a minute so they may never be used.

InfernapeJan 3, 20183 votes

Varus’s q has a larger hit box longer range and can go through minions so it’s a much more effective poke tool.

Varus' Q does little damage to targets beyond the first or second (depending on the target's squishiness). Not to mention he cannot fire it while CC'ed. Hell, the ability itself will be cancelled. Unlike Zoe who for some reason can recast her Q while CC'ed or under Zhonya's or Tempered Fate's Stasis.

You’re lying varus max q cdr is about 7 give or take and can be reduced further if you pop a blight stack on the opponent.

100% right there. It's 7.2 seconds at 40% CDR.

She essentially has no damage besides her eq. All 4 of varus’s abilities do damage and provide other bonuses.

She does still have her passive. All of her abilities (including the recast of her Q) prime her passive and the bubbles from her W apply her passive. She's probably the best Lich Bane user in the game.

She’s still really weak to assasins because Zoe’s aren’t 100% perfect in landing their e’s every single time and even if they were they’re close proximity to her limits her damage. In addition her e takes 1.5 seconds to proc after a decently long windup time which is definitely enough time for an assasin to burst.

To be fair though, once you hit someone with her E, they get slowed until they fall asleep. And even early, it's a 10% slow. It does give her pretty ample time to escape and she has the cooldown refund on top of that if she happens to hit a champion.

Lethality Varus was a massive problem because there was essentially no counter play to his lane except survive and he still was decent mid and late game If a poke comp was built.

Lethality Varus was a problem mainly because of Runes Reforged. Everyone apart from those that went Resolve lost armour early on. Lethality works best against those who do not build armour. Not to mention Lethality got buffed when the preseason changes went live. It was more flat pen that scaled early on.

Like you could get a flash but you could also get a ghost or a cleanse against a zed

And this is the inherent problem with Zoe. She either is useless because she gets a shit drop or she becomes a total lane bully because she just happened to pick up a Hextech Gunblade active at level 2 or she just happens to get a free back/lane gank because she picked up teleport. Part of the problem is her Mario Kart W.

She's going to be a massive balance problem going forward. Even a month after her release, she sits on a 70%+ ban rate. No one wants to deal with her shit. She's banned in more than half of games played. This goes for everyone from Bronze to Challenger. She was pretty much permabanned at All Stars and is probably going to be pick or ban once the 2018 pro cycle starts.