Dear Meddler and Riot balance team, here is a suggestion buff for Nasus

HateDaddy··10 votes·1,701 views

So I've been pretty vocal recently that the last few patches, minus 5.17 because I'm going to exclude the patch where he was bugged, have been pretty rough for him.

Straight to the point, here are the issues with Nasus at the moment:

•He's high risk/low reward, even managing to get farm on him feels completely underwhelming because he's too easy to kite/peel in teamfights and his split pushing is a cheesey and unsatisfying strength to have for both Nasus players and his opponents

•He's outperformed by basically every other bruiser currently. They do what he does but better and more consistently and they're all able to apply their damage in meaningful ways where Nasus isn't.

•Meddler has already acknowledged that TP changes are being discussed and a CD nerf is likely, this is another big you to Nasus the same way the last 3 patches have been, neigh, the last three years have been. Nasus hasn't ever been compensated for all of these nerfs he's sustained directly and indirectly.

These are the issues with Nasus, it's not about winning/losing, it's about consistency and feeling like he has this infamous buzzword that riot throws around, a "late game fantasy." At best, he gets farmed and cheeses your team by backdooring. As a Nasus player, I can tell you a few things:

A) This isn't consistent, it's comp dependent and it requires quite a bit of farm to be a threat that can't be ignored by simply engaging on Nasus' team 5v4. You have to be so farmed that you're basically two shotting towers.

B) this is unsatisfying for a "late game fantasy" and when it's the only thing Nasus excels in, it feels extremely frustrating to play against. The irony is that he isn't even the best split pusher, he's just likely one of the most polarizing one.

So what are my goals with changes I'm going to suggest? For starters, you can never eliminate Nasus from being a split pusher, even if you removed his Qs damage applying on structures. He is the best melee vs melee duelist once he gets items and farm, no melee will outduel him and very few ranged champions can duel him in 1v1s. This alone is enormous split push pressure since you can't simply send one champion up to defend him. My goal is to encourage him to be more of a team fighter or at least feel like he has a meaningful impact in teamfights, which most Nasus players will tell you, he doesn't and this is why his risk/reward doesn't feel like a proper pay off if you get farm on him. If it turns out later on that this change would make him an incredible teamfighter, I am all for removing his bonus Q damage applying to structures. I'm not for that now because its all he has.

What I want changed is simple, at rank 5 of Nasus' Q, he gains a new effect on it. Like darius, his Q returns a missing % of his HP against champions only. Yes I know, this seems like a bit much when you consider his Lifesteal applying on Q but let me explain why that's overrated and quite frankly, once teamfight phase hits, isn't reliable.

For starters, Nasus can't do much but beat up on front lines in fights. His biggest issue is he depends on items to be durable, items that get countered by the plethora of armor and mr pen, flat and percentage alike. Past items, he doesn't really have any way to keep his Hp up because he's not naturally tanky and the 600 HP on his ult doesn't really do much late game. Furthermore, since he only really can fight on the front line, he can't really drain tank with his passive since armor (which any bruiser/tank will have) greatly reduces the power of Lifesteal tanking. This is his big issue, he front lines decently but it falls off hard once carries get penetration items and he has no way to further amplify his durability past this point. And this is where he feels so underwhelming despite supposedly being this late game carry, when he's not. It's why he's mid game oriented, but his mid game is harder to come by these days with top lane being a lane he can get bullied out in now with fighters being good. I don't want fighters nerfed into the ground, I want Nasus brought to that level but in a way that isn't making him more overbearing during lane phase.

This is why I suggest adding this mechanic to his max rank Q, by this point Nasus will either have won or lost his lane so it doesn't change much. And while you could say it makes his Lifesteal tanking vs low armor targets better and that's true, let's be real, if Nasus can get in range of a squishy, they're dead. The drain tank/life stealing won't even be a factor.

This change hopefully gives Nasus a real drain tank feel in fights and makes his durability more gameplay oriented and less like a wall of stats you can't hurdle over, which I admit is lame. Understand as well, if this change were implemented and Nasus was allowed to keep this mechanic to make him more of a teamfight threat, I would be all for making his Qs bonus damage not apply to structures.

Bromacia

41 Comments

Ser Garland5 votes

Nope, sorry. Nasus is a bad champion for game health. Wait for a rework.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PasEK43P,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-08T21:45:05.283+0000)

Nope, sorry. Nasus is a bad champion for game health. Wait for a rework.

Not everything needs a rework just because people have a perception that he's "bad for the game." Nasus isn't any less healthy than Veigar or Ryze, he's a hard scaler and he has some mechanics in place that give his scaling a feel of power. You might find this frustrating but let's be real, every champ has a frustrating level of play with their kit and Nasus isn't any different.

The rework word gets thrown around here way too much, in truth Nasus can easily have a few tweaks and changes that would eliminate some of that but why? If we had to rework everything because bronzelords, super silvers and lowly golds felt it was unfair, every champion in the game would be lame and straight forward with no meaningful gameplay.

Thanks for the reply tho

Aatrox Herself1 votes

Nasus was a juggernaut before it was cool. A tank that can 2 shot you with one ability...

SaltyKracka3 votes

You overestimate Nasus' damage.

Aatrox Herself1 votes

No I don't. I have many bad memories, Nasus is why i stopped maining adc.

SaltyKracka4 votes

Oh, versus ADCs. Yes, Nasus can totally fuck a squishy carry's day if he manages to get onto them when they have no support, peel, or mobility.

In effect, this means that he's best against MF and Jinx.

When they're alone.

Which they shouldn't ever be.

Aatrox Herself1 votes

No i think you mean always in team-fights, also when do carries get peeled. That idea is ridiculous and has never happened.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

No i think you mean always in team-fights, also when do carries get peeled. That idea is ridiculous and has never happened.

Good players peel for their carry, and Nasus is so prone to peel that my cat could do it

Aatrox Herself1 votes

Yes good players can. But what are the odds of getting one of those.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Yes good players can. But what are the odds of getting one of those.

In my games? every game

SwordGrunt1 votes

{quoted}

Yes good players can. But what are the odds of getting one of those.

Not in Silver

But the game isn't balanced around Silver

Otherwise Katarina and Master Yi would be broken as fuck

Aatrox Herself1 votes

They are broken as fuck.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

They are broken as fuck.

jaja

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

You overestimate Nasus' damage.

Two shot is a bit of a stretch in realistic scenarios but I have gotten that kind of farm before. Problem is applying it, you almost never will be able to by the time you get that farm.

frigginmurlocs4 votes

I remember when nasus appearing from the fog of war was more or less a strong disengage die to how powerful his late game used to be

MCBiggah991 votes

Laning against Nasus is pure ebola, it's like a Yorick lane or a Malzahar lane. Either you get ganks and manage to set him behind, or he outsustains you and goes even, which is a won lane in Nasus's case. Yes, they should rework him, to be less unfun to play against.

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

Laning against Nasus is pure ebola, it's like a Yorick lane or a Malzahar lane. Either you get ganks and manage to set him behind, or he outsustains you and goes even, which is a won lane in Nasus's case. Yes, they should rework him, to be less unfun to play against.

I'll give you this, his lane is pretty polarizing. If you get ahead you can make him feed the shit out of you. But at the same time you pretty much rely on him making significant mistakes, as he's very very hard to all in early levels due to his insane safety. Sure, you can deny him initially but he is a ticking time bomb. He relies on his ability to quickly spiral into strength during the mid game and snowball that into a strong, overpowering lead as he does fall off late, except for when he Qs turrets. The only time his late game doesn't fall off is when he starts winning before mid game, as he's getting continually fed on stop of accruing stacks, so he essentially is scaling twice.

That being said, he's essentially feast or famine, and often times while he stacks you can take the game out from under him. Even if you can't, if you have a decent team comp and they only have two threats (so assuming at least 1 of your lanes won) any amount of disruption makes his stacks useless apart from peeling for his carries.

Sasogwa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PasEK43P,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-08T21:45:05.283+0000)

Nope, sorry. Nasus is a bad champion for game health. Wait for a rework.

This is a ridiculous assumption which only engages your own opinion, it also has no arguments in it.

DeadPuddle3 votes

I also main nasus. what are you talking about?

he's too easy to kite/peel in teamfight.

you have a slow, an amazingly OP slow. + once you get trinity and furur boots you can't be kitted.

outperformed by basically every other bruiser currently.

Early yes, late game, no. because hes a late game champion.

Meddler has already acknowledged that TP changes are being discussed.

This effect's all champions and should be in this thread.

The irony is that he isn't even the best split pusher.

No he's not, because the best split pushers are super mobile and can't be caught, he makes up for this by being a massive 1v1 nightmare.

For starters, you can never eliminate Nasus from being a split pusher, even if you removed his Qs damage applying on structures.

No this would actually remove him as being a splitpusher.

Like darius, his Q returns a missing % of his HP against champions only.

If you want this buy a bloodthirster.

he can't really drain tank with his passive since armor (which any bruiser/tank will have) greatly reduces the power of Lifesteal tanking.

Why are you fighting in the front line? you're a back line diving tank champion.

if Nasus can get in range of a squishy, they're dead. The drain tank/life stealing won't even be a factor.

Except it allows him to survive so well he can 1v5 the enemy team as oppose to taking out a single target then backing off to stay alive.

I don't know what else to say besides are you high??

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

I also main nasus. what are you talking about?

you have a slow, an amazingly OP slow. + once you get trinity and furur boots you can't be kitted.

Early yes, late game, no. because hes a late game champion.

This effect's all champions and should be in this thread.

No he's not, because the best split pushers are super mobile and can't be caught, he makes up for this by being a massive 1v1 nightmare.

No this would actually remove him as being a splitpusher.

If you want this buy a bloodthirster.

Why are you fighting in the front line? you're a back line diving tank champion.

Except it allows him to survive so well he can 1v5 the enemy team as oppose to taking out a single target then backing off to stay alive.

I don't know what else to say besides are you high??

Have you considered that he's a Diamond player with almost 1000 Nasus games while you're silver with like 40 games and he probably knows a hell of a lot more than you about Nasus?

DeadPuddle1 votes

Nice name

You haven't addressed anything I've said, instead choosing to attack the validity of my voice, a tactic often used by the losing side of an argument, (not that this is an argument, it's a discussion)

You also make the mistake of thinking game rank has anything to do with discussing the game's mechanics and design, most of riot's employees are in gold and below, are we to understand that hatedaddy should be put in charge of their design team due to his game rank? no don't be ridiculous.

I'm also a games designer and understand how the game is designed, something i would suggest you put a little effort into. The fact that there are a large amount of nasus mains in master and challenger tier shows that in his current state nasus is relevant in all elo's of the game.

This thread is nothing more then a player frustrated with his main and demanding buffs like a spoilt child wanting more more more.

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

I also main nasus. what are you talking about?

https://i.gyazo.com/e88c22a942aeb973b6a5b47e6e19cea0.png

https://i.gyazo.com/1e2d7a1a551d2b5ca20e5da686384145.png

you have a slow, an amazingly OP slow. + once you get trinity and furur boots you can't be kitted.

You have to get in range first. item 3140 item 3222 Thresh Janna Alistar or any other fucking support in the game.

Early yes, late game, no. because hes a late game champion.

No. No he is fucking not.

Nasus is mid game. He's supposed to be late game, but his damage falls off because enemies build armor and Nasus can't afford to build damage to do the same type of damage he can in the mid game. Nasus is so strong in mid game because he can get large amounts of damage before they build defenses while he builds tank, so he's tanky, deals a shitload and can draintank as well.

This effect's all champions and should be in this thread.

..? What are you even saying here? It's a nerf to Nasus because he always uses TP. Just because it affects others doesn't mean it doesn't affect Nasus.

No he's not, because the best split pushers are super mobile and can't be caught, he makes up for this by being a massive 1v1 nightmare.

Yes, he's good 1v1. But he can't kill tanks. Fighters and tanks these days have waveclear so they essentially stop his push cold.

No this would actually remove him as being a splitpusher.

If he has bad teamfighting, he's a split pusher. He has bad teamfighting. He would still be hard to 1v1.

If you want this buy a bloodthirster.

If you buy bloodthirster on Nasus you're fucking retarded.

Why are you fighting in the front line? you're a back line diving tank champion.

No, no you aren't. Because anyone with half a brain will peel the fuck out of you so you accomplish nothing. Nasus is much better off tanking the front line and using his E and W to peel off diving fighters from his adc.

Except it allows him to survive so well he can 1v5 the enemy team as oppose to taking out a single target then backing off to stay alive.

If you pull that off you are so far ahead that your argument is irrelevant.

I don't know what else to say besides are you high??

You have no idea what you are talking about, stop pretending you do. You don't even have a single Nasus game in ranked in the past 5 seasons.

DeadPuddle1 votes

Again rank means nothing when discussing the game. game knowledge is more important when discussing matters of champions and game balance which is what we are doing. If rank was more important when designing the game when why are most of riots employs in gold and below??

Just to correct your assumption I'm an EUW player in silver atm, the deadpuddle in NA is not me.

The counter items and champs exist as counter champs and items, it's called counter play and every champ has this weakness, I don't see your point. if there's a tank you buy pen, if there's an adc you buy armor, if there's a zed/fiora/veigar you get a QSS.

Nasus has infinite damage scaling.... emm that's late game design (The statement doesn't mean he's not effective in mid game either its just the focus of his design)

Just because it affects others doesn't mean it doesn't affect Nasus.

OMG, if you have 200 grams on two sides of a see-saw and take 100 grams off both sides it's still balanced. nerfing an item like long sword effects pretty much every champion, it affects so many champions in fact that no AD champ get's an advantage. its a nerf to all of them, a nerf to TP effects ALL top laners, hence if everyone is nerfed then noone is. the balance stays the same. (I'm confused as to why I even have to explain this, its pretty obvious)

Yes, he's good 1v1. But he can't kill tanks.

and tanks can't kill him. and you sit under there tower taking it down in 4 seconds while a tank hits you like a wet sock.

OP talked about removing his Q damage to structures, you honestly think he'd be a good split-pusher without being able to take a tower down quickly and run away??

If you buy bloodthirster on Nasus you're fucking retarded.

Then sirhcez's lifesteal build be keeps winning on is fucking retarded.

No, no you aren't. Because anyone with half a brain will peel the fuck out of you so you accomplish nothing.

Yes this is the correct way to counter to a large tank with heavy damage in a teamfight. if the enemy team don't do this or focus on you so much an assassin gets by and one shots the enemy ADC then you win. Again it's called counterplay. that thing that lets the enemy team have a chance vs your champion. Without it the champion becomes broken. Are you making the argument that nasus should be broken??

If you pull that off you are so far ahead that your argument is irrelevant.

What? OP is talking about adding even more lifesteal and healing to a champ who's passive is free lifesteal and his Q works with lifesteal and is infinite scaling?? you say its needed because he gets low lifesteal back from attacking tanks, SO DOES EVERYONE that's part of the design of lifesteal, you don't get shit when you hit a tank with it. why do you think a champion who only needs one offensive item and a full tank build and still deals tons of damage should be an exception to this rule??

If you want to lifesteal from tanks get a last whisper, (this is actually a good idea if the enemy team has 4 tanks in it, it's about buying for the enemy composition)

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

Again rank means nothing when discussing the game. game knowledge is more important when discussing matters of champions and game balance which is what we are doing. If rank was more important when designing the game when why are most of riots employs in gold and below??

It does when you have no experience on said champion and are low elo so you have no idea what you are talking about. Nasus is invalidaited by basic gameplay skill which doesn't exist in silver.

Just to correct your assumption I'm an EUW player in silver atm, the deadpuddle in NA is not me.

Was reasonable to assume you were in NA but point taken.

The counter items and champs exist as counter champs and items, it's called counter play and every champ has this weakness, I don't see your point. if there's a tank you buy pen, if there's an adc you buy armor, if there's a zed/fiora/veigar you get a QSS.

Yeah, there's counterplay. Nasus gets kited. That seems to be **something you don't understand. Nasus gets kited. Nasus gets kited. Nasus gets fucking kited.

Nasus can't kill shit when he gets kited.**

Nasus has infinite damage scaling.... emm that's late game design (The statement doesn't mean he's not effective in mid game either its just the focus of his design)

Like I said, he's supposed to be late game scaling but practically speaking he is a mid game god. His late game is overrated for the reasons I explained. If you are incapable of understanding and accepting that fact based off the evidence I've previous provided it's your own fault.

In the mid game if he's stacked well a EQ will deal 50-70% of an ADCs health. In the late game it's going to deal around 40% (assuming full build with GA and BT's pseudo health) and the adc will kite and drain tank him the entire time. He won't get more than 1 Q. I'd be surprised if he gets a single Q on the adc if they have a competent support.

In the mid game if he's stacked he's going to deal 1/4 to 1/2 of a tanks HP if they haven't itemized early armor. If they have, his damage drops dramatically to 20-30%.

"But his E shreds armor"

Yeah, it reduces armor by a flat amount. It's far more useful against squishies because the less armor you have the more every point of it counts. It results in massive damage increases because you can put their armor into the negative, massively increasing damage dealt to them. Against tanks them having 150 armor instead of 220 isn't a huge deal because you can't kill them anyway.

OMG, if you have 200 grams on two sides of a see-saw and take 100 grams off both sides it's still balanced. nerfing an item like long sword effects pretty much every champion, it affects so many champions in fact that no AD champ get's an advantage. its a nerf to all of them, a nerf to TP effects ALL top laners, hence if everyone is nerfed then noone is. the balance stays the same. (I'm confused as to why I even have to explain this, its pretty obvious)

You are an idiot.

A nerf to TP is a nerf to Nasus because he relies on it. Just because a lot of other top laners take it, they don't require it beyond meta shifts. Nasus has ALWAYS required TP. Nasus doesn't benefit from ignite. Nasus doesn't benefit from Exhaust, Heal, Clarity, or any other summoner spell to justify not taking TP.

and tanks can't kill him. and you sit under there tower taking it down in 4 seconds while a tank hits you like a wet sock.

Except that tanks these days have waveclear. Any competent fucking tank will just tank the minion waves outside the range of turret and clear the waves so you can never take it for free. You can't walk past them to Q the turret because without minions in it's range its armor is much higher so you do a lot less damage, you take a lot of free damage, and the tank can CC and disrupt you to further mitigate your progress. It's often to such an extent that they could realistically kill you if you try that shit.

Do you get it? Fighters, tanks, and juggernauts tend to have some kind of waveclear when vs melee. They can stop his push because he can't kill them and he can't ignore them.

OP talked about removing his Q damage to structures, you honestly think he'd be a good split-pusher without being able to take a tower down quickly and run away??

No, I think he'd be a trash splitpusher. But his teamfighting is still terrible. If the OP's suggestion (Q missing health bonus) is added then he would be a much better teamfighter and less of a splitpusher. If they do neither AND remove the Q stacks he's still going to be a split pusher but he would probably just go AP to push waves with E.

Then sirhcez's lifesteal build be keeps winning on is fucking retarded.

He only does that when he is massively ahead or he has other reasons to justify it. You can point to plenty of dumb shit pros or other high elo players do but if you don't understand the reasoning behind their choices you are going to fail in mimicking them.

Yes this is the correct way to counter to a large tank with heavy damage in a teamfight. if the enemy team don't do this or focus on you so much an assassin gets by and one shots the enemy ADC then you win. Again it's called counterplay. that thing that lets the enemy team have a chance vs your champion. Without it the champion becomes broken. Are you making the argument that nasus should be broken??

There are so many inconsistencies and logical fallacies in this paragraph that I am without words.

Nasus is bad at teamfighting because anyone with a brain peels him off. Thus, he is naturally better at peeling himself than he is at diving. You know that squishy assassin trying to kill your adc? Yeah, you can pop the shit out of him. WEQ will neutralize non-ability based movement and mitigate aa based DPS on your adc and drop them to around half or less, on top of having less armor so your ADC will shred them and drain tank harder.

What? OP is talking about adding even more lifesteal and healing to a champ who's passive is free lifesteal and his Q works with lifesteal and is infinite scaling?? you say its needed because he gets low lifesteal back from attacking tanks, SO DOES EVERYONE that's part of the design of lifesteal, you don't get shit when you hit a tank with it. why do you think a champion who only needs one offensive item and a full tank build and still deals tons of damage should be an exception to this rule??

  1. I never said I agreed with the OP's suggestion.

  2. You are vastly overestimating how much he heals with his lifesteal on champions. Most of his healing with his Q comes from minions because they have no armor.

  3. It's to give him teamfighting capability while mitigating or removing his most polarizing ability: his splitpushing. This lifesteal buff was to be in exchange for bonus damage on turrets. In all honesty it's a significantly fair trade.

If you want to lifesteal from tanks get a last whisper, (this is actually a good idea if the enemy team has 4 tanks in it, it's about buying for the enemy composition)

You always buy last whisper if you intend to deal damage and are AD. Nasus always buys LW as one of his last items.

It's not enough because he doesn't have other damage items beyond TF. TF LW is not enough damage to punch through heavily armored tanks. You deal damage to them but you aren't killing them anytime soon, and meanwhile they are disrupting you.

It seems as if you underestimate how severe even a little bit of armor reduces physical damage that's not increased by ad items and penetration together.

DeadPuddle1 votes

emm no. I'm not going to continue this conversation with a 2 year old

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

emm no. I'm not going to continue this conversation with a 2 year old

Thou shall not attack the person's character, but their argument. (Ad hominem)

Thou shall not argue that because of our ignorance, claim must be true or false. (Ad ignorantum)

Those are just two of the logical fallacies you've committed. Since you have resorted to nothing more than name calling, it's pretty safe to say that I've dissected and murdered your entire argument in cold blood.

DeadPuddle1 votes

You are an idiot.

hypocrite.

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

hypocrite.

I called you an idiot, yes, but that was addition to my argument not a supplement or replacement for it.

xl Kirito lx2 votes

Nasus is incredibly well designed. He's the best example of a juggernaut, highly immobile with a single target soft-cc ability.

I'm still thinking that Nasus would be a lot easier to balance if they reworked his passive. That passive life steal gives him strong sustain in lane, combined with flask. Personally, I was thinking a passive that scales based on the number of stacks Nasus has, where he'd scale harder into late game, but I know people don't like those types of passives.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

Just play mordekaiser. Omg, they picked a lane bully? No problem, poke and free shield, dealing ao damage in fights while being tanky. Mordekaiser Q is more reliable than nasus Q. No need to stack.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I'd prefer buffing his ult for teamfights, let him heal for 20/35750% of the damage done to champs with it and maybe a small ms-buff, like 10/20/30flat. This way he has a clear window of power for teamfights, and if you can disengage properly at for that time, he's as shitty as always, but if you don't, he will be a powerfull frontline.

giving aditional heal to his Q would make going 1v1 vs him rather impossible for any melee past level 9...

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PasEK43P,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-10-09T00:01:59.529+0000)

I'd prefer buffing his ult for teamfights, let him heal for 20/35750% of the damage done to champs with it and maybe a small ms-buff, like 10/20/30flat. This way he has a clear window of power for teamfights, and if you can disengage properly at for that time, he's as shitty as always, but if you don't, he will be a powerfull frontline.

My concern with that is the potential for abuse of AP Nasus, which believe it or not, if he can sustain without having to attack you (swain ult), it's broken as fuck. Besides that, while I think that's another good alternative, I'm not sure how well this works, you know? Maybe it's really good, but I do like this concept somewhat assuming it's balanced well enough to keep AP Nasus from going wild.

giving aditional heal to his Q would make going 1v1 vs him rather impossible for any melee past level 9...

I'm not so sure it would. By level 9, Nasus has either won lane or farmed well enough that he can't be dueled anyway or he's been denied that he simply doesn't do enough damage to win an all-in, not to mention he's easy to disengage from at this level if there is the potential for losing a fight and when his ult is down and he's not farmed well, he's easy to beat

Sire Hippington1 votes

My concern with that is the potential for abuse of AP Nasus

A very valid concern, i sometimes play him as ap-offtank vs bad matchups, as you don't rely on Q stacks and can maxE with doubledorans for save waveclear, and if you can land an E and stand in the middle of a team with ult, the damage is insane. Maybe regenerating %missing health/sec for every enemie champ within his ult. Or a nerf to the ult AP ratio, though that would probably kill his ap-offbuilts a bit.

'm not so sure it would. By level 9, Nasus has either won lane or farmed well enough that he can't be dueled anyway or he's been denied that he simply doesn't do enough damage to win an all-in, not to mention he's easy to disengage from at this level if there is the potential for losing a fight and when his ult is down and he's not farmed well, he's easy to beat

I often win my lane past that point vs with some matchups with out dominating to much befor, as i complete important items like hydra or BotrK Depending on how strong the heal is, it would get problematic. Maybe instead of Qrank5, give it a heal scaleing with ult level, starting really low at 6 but getting strong at 16.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PasEK43P,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-10-09T02:08:18.017+0000)

A very valid concern, i sometimes play him as ap-offtank vs bad matchups, as you don't rely on Q stacks and can maxE with doubledorans for save waveclear, and if you can land an E and stand in the middle of a team with ult, the damage is insane. Maybe regenerating %missing health/sec for every enemie champ within his ult. Or a nerf to the ult AP ratio, though that would probably kill his ap-offbuilts a bit. 'm not so sure it would. By level 9, Nasus has either won lane or farmed well enough that he can't be dueled anyway or he's been denied that he simply doesn't do enough damage to win an all-in, not to mention he's easy to disengage from at this level if there is the potential for losing a fight and when his ult is down and he's not farmed well, he's easy to beat

I often win my lane past that point vs with some matchups with out dominating to much befor, as i complete important items like hydra or BotrK Depending on how strong the heal is, it would get problematic. Maybe instead of Qrank5, give it a heal scaleing with ult level, starting really low at 6 but getting strong at 16.

Honestly, I wouldn't even be against it if they capped his Q and gave it bonus effects like this when he reached a certain amount of stacks. This is rework territory, not a major one, but a slight one. But I've always toyed around with an idea like this. There'd be more changes because quite honestly, a cap on Q would require some buffs in other places too.

Carnarius1 votes

i agree on a lot of what you said, but: nasus is still quite strong against heavy ap comps with no tanks (even tho he is atrocious in lane against, for example vlad), as they will still die relatively fast to stacked q, even tho they can kite him. lack of front line and tanks is extremely benefical to nasus in the other hand, he is extremely vulnerable to ANY ad comp or ad/ap comp with tank/tanks (so basically 95% what we have right now). bruisers have been buffed heavily (with all stats/kits and items), core armor items for nasus have been nerfed, and there was no compensation. ad items are simply being way too powerful (black cleaver and ruined king are 2 items that should not exist, in terms of their power compared to price), which equals in being really squishy, even when building tank. nasus can't reach enemy backline, whereas champions like darius, fiora or maokai will provide much more presence, in terms of utility, damage, cc or basicaly anything. i feel like new bruisers are much more tanky even when not building as many tank items, due to their kits being so overloaded. let's not forget the fact that their early is still quite strong, while nasus has the weakest and most unsatisfying early from all top laners (all champions?) in the game right now.

the solution in my opinion would be, as hatedaddy said, adding something to his kit. increasing life steal from his q against champions, adding movements speed to his w (malphite's q mechanic), or something that will lower his weaknesses, as there are too many right now. also increasing his base stats/stats per level would make sense, as they are ridicuously lower than stats of other juggernauts

Carnarius1 votes

except that you're in silver, a world with no kiting, farming, mechanical skill and whatsoever. the problem is, in higher elo they all exist, that's why you have no clue what you're talking about

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Only if his W reduces attack speed by 95% against ranged champions in exchange for such a buff.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Drain Tanking is an interesting idea to help Nasus team fight, but % missing health heal on an ability that has a 2.4 second CD at max CDR (which Nasus builds) and can't be dodged is a little much.

Why not remove the attack speed slow from Wither and change it to a slowly ramping up % reduction in the target's damage dealt? Make Wither a real Exhaust. That way, Nasus is good against all champions, not just AS centric ones, but only when he is initiating or chasing (on-cast, the % Damage Reduced would be like 10% on cast up to 70% after 5 seconds at rank 5). This would increase his team fight power dramatically, and the counterplay for the target would either be to try and escape or use all your burst on the carry as quickly as possible before the Wither makes you useless.

Also, since Nasus maxes Q first, it wouldn't be a real problem in lane. If this change causes Nasus to max Wither first his stacking will drop through the floor so that's no big deal.

Carnarius1 votes

why would anyone address anything from your post, everything you said are simple assumptions, you take everything from point of view of silver. things are entirely different in our divisions and believe me, nasus horribly underpowered after 5.17 changes. the funniest thing is, the juggernaut changes made all of them insanely strong, while the original juggernaut (nasus) who should be also uptaded, got another hit with armor nerfs with nerfed (the only item usable by him is dead mans, but really, i would rather have old frozent heart and randuin). logic is strong here

71389310_DEL1 votes

{quoted}

So I've been pretty vocal recently that the last few patches, minus 5.17 because I'm going to exclude the patch where he was bugged, have been pretty rough for him.

Straight to the point, here are the issues with Nasus at the moment:

•He's high risk/low reward, even managing to get farm on him feels completely underwhelming because he's too easy to kite/peel in teamfights and his split pushing is a cheesey and unsatisfying strength to have for both Nasus players and his opponents

•He's outperformed by basically every other bruiser currently. They do what he does but better and more consistently and they're all able to apply their damage in meaningful ways where Nasus isn't.

•Meddler has already acknowledged that TP changes are being discussed and a CD nerf is likely, this is another big you to Nasus the same way the last 3 patches have been, neigh, the last three years have been. Nasus hasn't ever been compensated for all of these nerfs he's sustained directly and indirectly.

These are the issues with Nasus, it's not about winning/losing, it's about consistency and feeling like he has this infamous buzzword that riot throws around, a "late game fantasy." At best, he gets farmed and cheeses your team by backdooring. As a Nasus player, I can tell you a few things:

A) This isn't consistent, it's comp dependent and it requires quite a bit of farm to be a threat that can't be ignored by simply engaging on Nasus' team 5v4. You have to be so farmed that you're basically two shotting towers.

B) this is unsatisfying for a "late game fantasy" and when it's the only thing Nasus excels in, it feels extremely frustrating to play against. The irony is that he isn't even the best split pusher, he's just likely one of the most polarizing one.

So what are my goals with changes I'm going to suggest? For starters, you can never eliminate Nasus from being a split pusher, even if you removed his Qs damage applying on structures. He is the best melee vs melee duelist once he gets items and farm, no melee will outduel him and very few ranged champions can duel him in 1v1s. This alone is enormous split push pressure since you can't simply send one champion up to defend him. My goal is to encourage him to be more of a team fighter or at least feel like he has a meaningful impact in teamfights, which most Nasus players will tell you, he doesn't and this is why his risk/reward doesn't feel like a proper pay off if you get farm on him. If it turns out later on that this change would make him an incredible teamfighter, I am all for removing his bonus Q damage applying to structures. I'm not for that now because its all he has.

What I want changed is simple, at rank 5 of Nasus' Q, he gains a new effect on it. Like darius, his Q returns a missing % of his HP against champions only. Yes I know, this seems like a bit much when you consider his Lifesteal applying on Q but let me explain why that's overrated and quite frankly, once teamfight phase hits, isn't reliable.

For starters, Nasus can't do much but beat up on front lines in fights. His biggest issue is he depends on items to be durable, items that get countered by the plethora of armor and mr pen, flat and percentage alike. Past items, he doesn't really have any way to keep his Hp up because he's not naturally tanky and the 600 HP on his ult doesn't really do much late game. Furthermore, since he only really can fight on the front line, he can't really drain tank with his passive since armor (which any bruiser/tank will have) greatly reduces the power of Lifesteal tanking. This is his big issue, he front lines decently but it falls off hard once carries get penetration items and he has no way to further amplify his durability past this point. And this is where he feels so underwhelming despite supposedly being this late game carry, when he's not. It's why he's mid game oriented, but his mid game is harder to come by these days with top lane being a lane he can get bullied out in now with fighters being good. I don't want fighters nerfed into the ground, I want Nasus brought to that level but in a way that isn't making him more overbearing during lane phase.

This is why I suggest adding this mechanic to his max rank Q, by this point Nasus will either have won or lost his lane so it doesn't change much. And while you could say it makes his Lifesteal tanking vs low armor targets better and that's true, let's be real, if Nasus can get in range of a squishy, they're dead. The drain tank/life stealing won't even be a factor.

This change hopefully gives Nasus a real drain tank feel in fights and makes his durability more gameplay oriented and less like a wall of stats you can't hurdle over, which I admit is lame. Understand as well, if this change were implemented and Nasus was allowed to keep this mechanic to make him more of a teamfight threat, I would be all for making his Qs bonus damage not apply to structures.

Bromacia

While I think your reasoning may not be the greatest I do agree he needs to be looked at and your solution might be viable but it also may not be. I played Nasus on my first account and I realize something needs to be done but having just returned to the game I'm not really qualified to say what that is. Just for the sake of sparking conversation and ideas better than my own I'll just list some things I'd like Riot to toy with though, be it by themselves or on the PBE.

  • Add Spellvamp to his passive to match the lifesteal, it would give the AP scaling Nasus has some real meaning.

  • Make Whither into more of a cripple: What if we leave the movement speed slow alone, we got rid of Wither's attack-speed slow and it disabled dashes/jumps such as Kalista's passive, Nidalee/Kha'Zix's pounce/leap, Graves/Lucian's dashes, etc. Maybe making his Whither into a cripple would encourage him to teamfight more because it would allow his team to secure hard-to-kill targets.

  • Make Whither into a damage enhancement tool: If we leave the movement speed slow alone, got rid of Wither's attack-speed slow and gave Whither the ability for Nasus to do bonus damage or reduce damage: maybe his damage is increased by 1/2/3/4/5% on Withered targets or maybe he takes 1/2/3/4/5% less damage from withered targets? Of these two options I think I like the damage reduction most.

  • Have his ult convert into damage reduction or his health instead of into his attack damage.

Again, I'm just putting these idea's out here in hopes of sparking some better ones. I would be interested in seeing how mine changed Nasus in-game but I'm sure there are many better options that I'm not thinking of.

Carnarius1 votes

sirchcez is playing mostly on his low diamond account, on his d1 main he struggles most the time. honestly, he is playable even till challenger, but ONLY playable. you can carry with most top lane picks right now, with nasus you can't, it only depends on team comps. he feels utterly useless against most of comps right now (tanks with cc, slows and kiting is what makes him worthless), THAT'S why we want change. he is MUCH weaker than every other top lane pick, at high elo. in plat or lower, i would still have 95% win rate with him, just becouse i hit challenger only playing nasus. does it mean we should balance him around lower elo, so he would become utter trash tier pick in higher elo? use your brain people, if you can't deal with nasus, that means YOU should improve and it's YOUR fault, not becouse he is too strong. spectate some matches with nasus and then comment about how "broken" he is

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