I would like to remind to people that Magic resistance can be reduced below 0

Ahristocats·Jan 8, 2018·9 votes·2,141 views

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_penetration

18 mr pen 15 mr pen 40% total mr pen

do i need to do some maths?

didn't we have enough asking for mages buffs already?

you're able to deal MORE than true damage to squishies and act like "oh i can't oneshot anyone as a mage" "oh i don't have 800 range" "oh adcs are able to oneshot me but also buy qss! and defensive itemization!"

if an adc has 60 mr you're still going to almost deal true damage to him

No ninja tabi is not good on mages No matter if they have 2 or 3 ads in their team is just the definition of overpowered boots

you think reducing damage by 10% is superior than dealing 30% or more magic damage? well you might be right, because maybe mages don't even need mr pen boots to oneshot :D

https://i.gyazo.com/8f55cb87655d5aeed8112f981320b72c.png

https://i.gyazo.com/04eff5cbf3e86b60a5b798a9739c47f7.png

look at that man, mages are so weak

please buff mages! make them taking towers as fast as AD champions! they need additional strengths!

[sg-shisa]

46 Comments

SalronJan 8, 20187 votes

Low elo mage players downvoting lol

AhristocatsJan 8, 20182 votes

[zombie-brand-clap]

but it's fine, duskblade is op twisted fate is balanced

PennsJan 8, 20185 votes

Honestly tho, there are no ap champs top, at least not above GP Camille Ornn and stuff. Elise also isnt as good as she should be if magic pen was opie. I dont count Eve and Nidalee cause they abuse a support item so theres also no ap junglers.

I rushed Tabi and GA second item as Jhin and the Zed could still blow me up whenever even without hitting Qs. I dont think Fizz or Kassadin would do that to a Mercs + just Hexdrinker Jhin lul

qwerty123xJan 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Honestly tho, there are no ap champs top,

Rumble, Teemo, Swain, Morde, Akali?

You on dr*gs or something?

AhristocatsJan 8, 20181 votes

oh ya rumble the lord of interactive laning phase

PennsJan 8, 20181 votes

at least not above GP Camille and Ornn.

Theres also Zed Yasuo Jayce Corki and others mid, just not above Ryze Azir Xerath, Kat in soloq and stuff.

Death by GlamourJan 8, 20181 votes

cough vlad coughs

qwerty123xJan 8, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PVvwVn3a,comment-id=000300000002,timestamp=2018-01-08T15:06:12.558+0000)

cough vlad coughs

Oh look, a bronze player that plays Vlad top.

bywords70Jan 8, 20184 votes

doesn't matter if the amount of damage you are doing is not getting negated if your damage is low to begin with.

theres a reason why scaling mr is fairly rare while scaling armor goes to around 100 end game. AD damage is so high that even with 100 armor they will still do more damage than a mage will against a 30 mr target.

also this is a bad thing for mages because it means that MR items negate so much more damage than armor will to adcs.

if you go double penetration to do true damage to 30 mr champions, then if they buy a 60 MR item they will get 60% more effective health.

If somebody buys a 60 armor item on top of their 100 base armor, they are getting 30% more effective health.

so literally buying MR items is twice as effective against mages than armor is against AD champions.

AD champions do obscenely more damage than mages, the only reason why mages can do comparable damage is because most champions will have 30 MR and 100 armor. MR items are twice as effective as armor, most mages do burst damage and are useless if they cannot burst down their targets, while ad champions can just spam auto attacks.

the only reason why ap mages win rates are not in the gutter right now is because playing 1 magic damage champion on your team is still useful because you will still do damage if they don't build MR, and if they do build MR they are using up an item slot against 4 other people on your team.

AhristocatsJan 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

doesn't matter if the amount of damage you are doing is not getting negated if your damage is low to begin with.

Excusez-moi?

theres a reason why scaling mr is fairly rare while scaling armor goes to around 100 end game. AD damage is so high that even with 100 armor they will still do more damage than a mage will against a 30 mr target.

the reason is because AD have autoattacks and thus do not spend ressources to deal damage while mages are limited in the amount of damage they deal because they all need mana and cds to deal damage

doesn't mean they deal less damage, they deal MORE DAMAGE except marksmen can outdamage them

no assassins can compet against a mage damage except if he surprises them (uh assassin)

mages are able to deal AOE damage bring utility and cc, and have more range making them safer in teamfight

also this is a bad thing for mages because it means that MR items negate so much more damage than armor will to adcs.

how did you get to this logic?

if you go double penetration to do true damage to 30 mr champions, then if they buy a 60 MR item they will get 60% more effective health.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

wait, you think that 60 mr=60% damage reduction?

AD champions do obscenely more damage than mages

Nop, it's the opposite

the only reason why ap mages win rates are not in the gutter right now is because playing 1 magic damage champion on your team is still useful because you will still do damage if they don't build MR, and if they do build MR they are using up an item slot against 4 other people on your team.

and that still makes them better and not needing a buff

an other question? i can answer to them all btw

bywords70Jan 8, 20183 votes

learn how resistances work, if you are reducing 30 mr to 0 MR using your highly ineffective double penetration build, then 60 MR will give 60% more effective health, making your build useless. the less resistance you the more effective it is to build resistance. this is literally the reason why burst mages that stack magic pen all they want will still do no damage. literally you are only playing a mage to try to make the enemy team build MR, and you are essentially a support relying on other people.

rushing 30 magic pen is no longer a thing in this meta, you are spending 2300 gold to basically try to negate a null magic mantle that costs 450 and gives 25 MR almost countering that build. the guise will delay your core items and only offers a bit of ap/health while your opponent will massively be ahead because he only needed to build 1 null magic mantle to basically negate your build and can use the rest of his gold on more efficient items.

[Edited by Moderation]

Boxxy MorningWdJan 8, 20181 votes

Well I do agree with you about game related mechanics BUT hey, isn't NA trashier than EUW? ;)

Being D2 without basic mechanics knowledge in EUW is quite impressive to me.

bywords70Jan 8, 20182 votes

yeah this server is also trash, and yet people wonder why we literally have no chance of winning worlds just when you see how our server plays. i mean literally our current rank 1 challenger lost to a gold 3 player twice in a row.

Remove JungleJan 8, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Boxxy MorningWd,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PVvwVn3a,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-08T11:18:10.048+0000)

Well I do agree with you about game related mechanics BUT hey, isn't NA trashier than EUW? ;)

he is just salty because OP is talking about mages. + too scared to post on his main uses a lvl 10 account LOL

AhristocatsJan 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

learn how resistances work, if you are reducing 30 mr to 0 MR using your highly ineffective double penetration build, then 60 MR will give 60% more effective health,

No it won't 30 mr gives 30% damage reduction 60 mr gives 40% damage reduction

there is no way you get 60% more effective health

rushing 30 magic pen is no longer a thing in this meta

i do it on morde and have 68% win rate over 200 games on him i do it on every single mage and can oneshot anyone

** but what do you know**, you're a hard stuck d2 in a trash server.

that's a good question but i don't know what you can know XD

bywords70Jan 8, 20181 votes

if you rushed 30 magic pent to bring their MR to 0, then they are at 100% of effective health. if they buy a 60 magic resist item, then their mr will be reduced from 90 to 60, giving them 160% of effective health. therefore a 60 MR item will give them 60% more effective health.

30 mr gives 23% damage reduction, 60 mr gives 37.5% damage reduction, 90 mr gives 47.4% damage reduction.

so if you reduce their mr from 30 to 0, they have no damage reduction. if you reduce their mr from 90 to 60, they have 37.5% damage reduction, or basically 60% more survivability.

the problem here is that flat penetration is easily negated by flat resists, a null magic mantle costs 450 and gives 25 mr, you will simply lose on efficiency. your build is only valid on morde because he doesn't use mana, most mages cannot build this way because it will set them too far behind if the enemy builds null magic mantle.

AhristocatsJan 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

if you rushed 30 magic pent to bring their MR to 0, then they are at 100% of effective health. if they buy a 60 magic resist item, then their mr will be reduced from 90 to 60, giving them 160% of effective health. therefore a 60 MR item will give them 60% more effective health.

No because 60 mr does not give you 60% more health

You forgot that they will build void staff And you forgot that NO ONE will buy a 60 mr item in early game

30 mr gives 23% damage reduction, 60 mr gives 37.5% damage reduction, 90 mr gives 47.4% damage reduction.

so if you reduce their mr from 30 to 0, they have no damage reduction. if you reduce their mr from 90 to 60, they have 37.5% damage reduction, or basically 60% more survivability.

No, it's 37.5% more survivability

the problem here is that flat penetration is easily negated by flat resists

indeed it is, and it has always been since 2009, and it goes both away with armor pen

the difference is that once you have void staff it isn't unless you have a package of mr but when it comes to armor, since people have 100 base armor and last whisper doesn't work on total armor lethality items will fall off in late game, and black cleaver takes 6 stacks to get 25% armor pen, while void staff gives directly 40% total mr pen

a null magic mantle costs 450 and gives 25 mr, you will simply lose on efficiency. your build is only valid on morde because he >doesn't use mana, most mages cannot build this way because it will set them too far behind if the enemy builds null magic >mantle.

Most mages build item 3151 item 3135 item 3020 item 3165 on pro build and they never have mana problems, and they deal a ton of damage

you can build null magic mantle if you want, it won't matter because void staff woks on total mr item 1033 also gimps your offensive power even if you go for item 3155 because it doesn't give as much offensive power as lethality items it's like saying mages can go for zhonya get armor+ap and they don't lose offensive power

bywords70Jan 8, 20181 votes

37.5% damage reduction means you are able to take 60% more damage before dying. void staff is underwhelming compared to last whisperer because MR values are usually less than armor, ad champions have it easier there as well, in fact ad champions do so much damage that some of them don't build last whisperer and go for another defensive utility item. most mages build like that because it is the most efficient build to attempt to do any damage, yet just 1 magic resist item will still negate that build just because of how strong MR items are.

Boxxy MorningWdJan 8, 20181 votes

As for facts, a 60 MR item goes up to 90MR with base, against your build 90MR will be reduced to 50MR which will give 33% reduction.

If you want to burst a 2.1kHP with 33% reduction you will have to deal 3145 damage at best. [3145 x (1 - 0.3333) = 2100] which IS 50% MORE DAMAGE TO DEAL. If you actually did a top to bottom with all of your spells, you will need 2 more spells to kill your target which has build just one item against your stuff. If you are Syndra with that build you will have to cast Q and E with your maxed R to kill your target.

Taking into account a Janna or a item 3109 or even a item 3190 and every single MR point will break the efficiency of your stuff.

That's why full penetration is not played and burst AP is not that much played.

If I would have played against you as an adc and in the case you get fed, I can go for a item 3155 or item 3140 and be done with you...

If I am a mid laner I can go for item 3102 and gain an obvious edge against you as a second item.

AhristocatsJan 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Boxxy MorningWd,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PVvwVn3a,comment-id=00010000000000010001,timestamp=2018-01-08T12:11:21.105+0000)

As for facts, a 60 MR item goes up to 90MR with base, against your build 90MR will be reduced to 50MR which will give 33% reduction.

as for a fact void staff exists

If you want to burst a 2.1kHP with 33% reduction you will have to deal 3145 damage at best. [3145 x (1 - 0.3333) = 2100] which IS 50% MORE DAMAGE TO DEAL.

see above

Taking into account a or a or even a and every single MR point will break the efficiency of your stuff.

you have an art for hyperboles

That's why full penetration is not played and burst AP** is not that much played.**

https://i.gyazo.com/9d5822486670526eadfe903b6c0a5fc5.png nice https://i.gyazo.com/860b8cf2501bd2d7b872e180757edd8e.png meme

If I would have played against you as an adc and in the case you get fed, I can go for a or and be done with you...

and deal no damage? that's a deal

If I am a mid laner I can go for and gain an obvious edge against you as a second item.

Yes you can, and everyone does it because mr pen is broken

Boxxy MorningWdJan 8, 20181 votes

Void staff is seriously a waste of item slot against 90MR targets... It's more designed against high MR targets. Consider an utilitary option or a burst item .
About above. 60% efficient HP is about a normal game when you don't build a . If you do it will be 50% efficient HP... That's why building MR pen is not that worth later on.
When you build stuff, you have to consider every possibilities, their is no hyperbole but only frogs in a well.
About your pro build stats and MR item on adc. If you are fed, most ADC will go for an early and lose a few minutes worth of stuff not to be a snack to you. Strangely your Orianna seems to go for that stuff knowing that it will force the enemy adc hand, why? Because she has the advantage. Wait is she a pro?! Great you did discover that pros have a high winrate and most of the time win their early game. Why would pros been better I wonder! Ps Orianna is an utilitary mage.
I don't see quite often nor your stuff nor Banshee. Maybe because your stuff is worthless when you want to gain a lane edge? Only useful when you already have the advantage. Did you ever heard about 'win-more' options (Magic the Gathering reference) being good for snowball but outright bad otherwise?

Furor NexisJan 8, 20181 votes

Hi Bywords70,

The last part of your post has been edited in accordance with the Boards Universal Rules on Harassment.

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qwerty123xJan 8, 20181 votes

Looool

Edit: You gonna delete my comment?

Pokemonred200Jan 8, 20184 votes

The only way to actually lower Magic Resist below zero is with an effect that reduces Magic Resist by a flat amount (Magic Pen stops working when the MR reaches zero).

The only effects in the entire game currently capable of doing this are Corki 's E (Gatling Gun) and item 3091 .

Corki doesn't built Wit's End, and nor do most mages.

A lot of mages are in a decent spot, I'll give it that, but magic pen isn't as effective to them as armor pen is to AD champions; AD champions still have their physical damage basic attacks and in a lot of cases can pump out their damage more often, and in some cases, faster as well.

More AD champions get a use out of sudden impact than AD champions too (stealth and dashes are things generally found on assassins; the AP champions that can use this rune to decent effectiveness are basically Evelynn, Leblanc, Ekko, and Katarina), and they have more total items that give them lethality item 3147 item 3142 item 3814 on top of this. Not to mention we get three choices for %armor pen ( item 3036 item 3071 item 3033 ) even if two of them don't stack, better multipliers ( item 3031 gives a higher increase to basic attacks (and some abilities, like Talon Q) than item 3089 gives to mages by far, even if we're not counting the increase we get from crit items already).

Granted, there are reasons for this, such as armor being easier to get in high numbers than magic resist (although this makes item 3035 and item 3071 better still) and it being overall easier to get a mix of offense and defense as far as MR goes in AD items ( item 3155 doesn't give that much less AD than item 3134 and item 3133 do, in exchange for better defensive and a pretty sizeable shield). This part is where I feel like there's a major problem, because with just a for a defensive item, I've found I've been able to survive a Syndra 's full combo burst at more or less any stage of the game as long as it was up (she wasn't behind), whereas I generally need multiple armor items to survive the same type of combo from a Talon or Lucian who was equally ahead, because their damage happens both faster and more often.

Pokemonred200Jan 8, 20181 votes

Oh fuck, I'm rambling again.

TLDR: AD Champions do their damage both faster and more frequently and have better multipliers, and in the case of those who have higher reliance on basic attacks, are not gated by cooldowns like mages are. Furthermore, defensive itemizing is generally just flat out better for AD champions than their AP counterparts, because we actually don't lose out as much on damage due to their mix of stats being more efficient overall.

Boxxy MorningWdJan 8, 20183 votes

Statistically wise, the average winrate on all positions (including mid) should be 50%. Having some midlaners with above 50% is no surprise and just indicate which champions is performing better than the others at the same role!

Your reasoning is based on no actual facts but a delusion of yours.

Note: Magic Penetration cannot affect enemy magic resistance beyond 0 to deal bonus damage.

AhristocatsJan 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Boxxy MorningWd,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PVvwVn3a,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-01-08T11:31:03.702+0000)

Statistically wise, the average winrate on all positions (including mid) should be 50%.

So?

Having some midlaners with above 50% is no surprise and just indicate which champions is performing better than the others at the same role!

i don't really care about those above 50% except TF who's beyond busted (12% pick rate 52% win rate) i'm just saying that AD midlaners are not ahead of AP midlaners

Your reasoning is based on no actual facts but a delusion of yours.

I find it quite shocking that people can throw those sentences on me and get away while if i say that i get permabanned but oh well, if you want to ad hominem feel free to do so i gave up a long time ago

Boxxy MorningWdJan 8, 20182 votes

Didn't you consider that an AD mid will often result in a full AD team or a negligible AP damage (only an AP tank top)? Which means stacking armor would just make your team composition not viable.

It could explain why most AD midlaner have an average winrate below AP mid. Even more 50% winrate on some means that they fare quite well despite this team disadvantage. Meaning armor item are not efficient enough OR AD mid are quite strong and shall be nerfed.

If we can see a return of AP jungler or top, AD mid winrate will probably explode over 55% before everybody adapt (and all AP mages will probably be under 50% winrate).

AhristocatsJan 8, 20181 votes

and i should care about that because?

it doesn't really bother me as long as AP midlaners have a decent win rate and thus are winning enough games to not be buffed

Boxxy MorningWdJan 8, 20181 votes

For two reasons,

Doesn't it feel strange for AD mid to be auto-countered by meta and still has a 50% winrate? They shall be at the bottom of the charts meaning either they are too strong or AP are too weak.

Because AP itemization is the next big update of this new season? (Look at old dev corner post.)

AhristocatsJan 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Boxxy MorningWd,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PVvwVn3a,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-08T13:41:22.764+0000)

Doesn't it feel strange for AD mid to be auto-countered by meta and still has a 50% winrate? They shall be at the bottom of the charts meaning either they are too strong or AP are too weak.

No it doesn't thanks god this game allows us for diversity

Because AP itemization is the next big update of this new season? (Look at old dev corner post.)

for diversity problems, they build always the same items item 3165 item 3020 item 3151 item 3135 not for being underpowered

Boxxy MorningWdJan 8, 20181 votes

The diversity shall be pushed on top and jungle here... And then those champions would be more than correct without giving a team disadvantage.

Void Staff is nearly not played and Liandry is contextual.

Diversity problem is about Necronomicon only. But I agree that this update isn't designed to push a buff on AP mid, I just hope so.

Seriously, you are really a frog in a weel. Please questions you're own point of view. Mid is not about pushing AP Pen.

SujirenJan 8, 20182 votes

I agree with atleast one thing, item 3020 feel too good to not buy. Even on champions like Vladimir or Malzahar , who often go item 3158 , I can't really justify skipping 18 pen for 10% cdr. Flat pen seems too valuable now, when everyone has so little base.

Boxxy MorningWdJan 8, 20181 votes

Maybe you did forgot the 10%CDR on summoner spells. Quite usefull for summoner 4

Also, it cost 200g less which can help you complete an item earlier than your opponent. Which is most appreciated and can overthrow your loss of burst.

SasogwaJan 8, 20182 votes

I don't understand the title, when you talk about magic pen and not magic resist shred. Magic pen can not act like the opponent has negative MR, check the wikia. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_penetration On the other hand, magic resist shred can, but right now it's almost impossible to do, especially since abyssal no longer gives magic resist shred.

AhristocatsJan 8, 20181 votes

yeah i realised it earlier with the comment of one dude i was wrong, but anyway dealing true damage is already enough and mages do not need buffs

SwarovskoJan 8, 20182 votes

Honestly I don't understand why the fuck you get downvoted. Mages are fucking busted with these 2 items alone item 3020 item 3151 . The only ones who should ask for buffs are Viktor mains... these boards are seriously ridiculous

ModDaenrysTargaryenJan 8, 20181 votes

Love your Picture/Avatar :)

AhristocatsJan 8, 20182 votes

shhh, it's a secret to us fek users

RevaliJan 8, 20181 votes

I like how ekko is at the bottom of that :c

Should stay that way, he wont get banned c:

SalsonJan 8, 20181 votes

Dude, that's penetration. Reduction like Corki's E can go below 0, but penetration stops at 0. Seriously wtf, you play Morde for fucks sake.

Also, mages do enough damage, they need armor. Which they didn't fucking get and not they can die to some pve-ing idiot who hit level 3 way before he should.

Need Gold 4 TentJan 8, 20181 votes

FYI you can reduce MR to over -800 (source: Vandiril)

GibberwattJan 8, 20181 votes

Something you might not have noticed is that most of those playrates are under 5%, suggesting that these champs are generally only played by mains (other than Katarina Malzahar TwistedFate ). This suggests that only the mains desire to play such a champion, and are only barely breaking even with the champion that they know inside and out. While this might not prove that the damage is too low, it does say that something is fucky.