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The solution to mobility creep is in the game already. We just need to change a few interactions.

Uiru··47 votes·4,772 views
  1. A champion's dash is now considered to be at 100% effectiveness when their current movement speed matches their default movement speed. When their current movement speed is diminished, their dash range is diminished by an equal amount.

What this means: Slows will actually slow champs, since nearly everybody can just dash over a slow field now. For point and click abilities, a champ with a (say) 500 range leap will, with a 25% slow, have a 375 range leap for the duration of the slow effect. This affects non-targeted blinks and Flash as well.

Does not affect champions whose current ms is higher (though that would be an interesting ability for an item or a support).

If Zed does not currently have a range limit to his shadow hopping, he should, and then this can affect him too. Slowing him to keep him from popping away is counterplay, and he could use some.

  1. Roots (snares, immobilizes, etc) will prevent champions from using movement abilities already. What they should do is stop them dead upon application as well.

What this means: Roots will stop a champion from just jumping onto you anyway and killing you while they're "immobilized" next to you. Jumping animations (Tristana, Jax) will drop to the ground immediately at a sensible point along their flight path (where they would be if it was just a dash towards their destination).

Bullshit like Fizz's dash doing damage when he launches and not when he hits you will also be fixed. When a champion stops, if they are not within autoattack range they do not deal damage.

Ultimates that specifically prevent this (Vi) will be unaffected.

For the reply:

When you howl into the night sky that your OP as fuck main will be ruined forever by these changes, consider a list of champions who will be "ruined" in this way, and then consider the health of a game with that list of champions getting nerfs they sorely need. I think you will get over it. This is a better solution to the very real problem of mobility creep than reworking every champ who abuses their mobility (which is nearly all of them). A few of them will still need additional work, of course. You know who they are. ~Uiru

88 Comments

LongFur Fox25 votes

Slow reducing dash ranges is a bad idea. Simply because range is not something which should change in very many cases. Tracking slows in a teamfight is very hard and since most players learn ranges (including dash ranges) by memory having that change would be the opposite of the clarity riot likes. A good example is try to see how many spells you can name that changes range with skill level. I think it is only cait ult, syndra ult and one more i can't remember. Increasing cd on dashes or the speed they have would be better.

As for being able to dash while rooted but it doing nothing that is seriously border line qq thread. It does nothing for game health it just makes it so people with dashes have to keep track of if they are rooted. While i would like to see slows have an effect on dashes it cannot be at the cost of game health or clarity.

EDIT: seems like there are a few abilities which does increase in range (xerath ult, panth ult, zac jump, and twisted fate ult have been mentioned below) but in most cases these abilities do not need to be instant cast at max range and having muscle memory of that range does not matter either in most cases unlike the dashes that op most likely referred to.

skippersd7 votes

I think OP meant that that annoying thing when you start your dash before morg Q hits, and you arrive, then get rooted. I think if someone manages to land a snare while you are dashing , he deserves to be rewarded by you not getting away (ofc this means snares get a big buff, but it could be compensated by fixing the hitboxes.)

Narasimha1 votes

Nocturne ult is the third one. Can't recall any others though.

LuckyReden1 votes

Pantheon Ult, Xerath Ult, Ziggs ult? Twisted Fate Ult? I feel like Kog'Maws does but Im not sure, im not sure about most of these except for Pantheons.

kunkudunk2 votes

ziggs ult does not increase

OrangesSC1 votes

Pantheon's and TF's ult doesn't either.

Wheatloaf2 votes

It would look weird in a lot of cases, but what if the speed of dashes slowed in relation to movespeed slows? Or perhaps have them change based on ms in general, so buying a Zephyr has even more entertainment value.

AtheosisX10 votes

It would be interesting to see how this might test, but I think this might just make it League of CC rather than League of Mobility.

X SkeletonCandy4 votes

{quoted}

It would be interesting to see how this might test, but I think this might just make it League of CC rather than League of Mobility.

There needs to be a healthy balance, and these changes would surely get us closer to that.

Sammystorm3 votes

that would push us to far the other direction. Things like azir wall are a good thing but what we really need is a way to reduce mobility with out reducing consistency. I think the slowing the dash animation could potentially be good.

GeoPeter2 votes

{quoted}

I think the slowing the dash animation could potentially be good.

I agree. This seems like a great way to affect mobility creep without causing a massive rework of the system. Champs still dash their full distance (and thus don't have a problem reaching enemies/going over walls), but still makes the slow relevant against champions with lots of dashes. Even Lee (and anybody else with a targeted dash) gets a clear effect placed on him. It's not game-breaking or crippling to high mobility champs.

The only thing I can think against this is that a big slow would lock someone in their dash, essentially turning their dash into a sort of channeled ability. Also, what about special cases like Ezreal's flash?

Sammystorm2 votes

I think blinks like flash and arcane shift should stay the same. They are meant to teleport and it wouldn't make sense to have slower teleports. In regards to arcane shift specifically I do believe you should be able to stun ez mid animation instead of him blinking away after the animation regardless of whether he is stunned or not.

Klatn Yelox1 votes

Truth, this makes sense. But further more, I believe that blinks like those two shouldn't be affected by snares. You get tangled in plants, but have a teleport ability, you should e able to use it. Depending on the ability, it could persist afterwards, but still work.

Uiru6 votes

{quoted}

It would be interesting to see how this might test, but I think this might just make it League of CC rather than League of Mobility.

There are already a number of solutions to cc in the game, though. There's nothing you can do about Lee Sin flying in and out as he pleases, taking all interaction away from you. (Imagine a world where Lee Sin needs to think about tower diving your squishy ass with his nonsense execute damage. Doesn't that sound like a wonderful place to be?) ~Uiru

Knight SoIaire 4 votes

There are already a number of solutions to cc in the game

like solution to knockups

with your solution in game i suspect that we will see all cc having champs getting hit by nerfs harder than your change would hit mobility

Tin Tarantino2 votes

{quoted}

There are already a number of solutions to cc in the game, though. There's nothing you can do about Lee Sin flying in and out as he pleases, taking all interaction away from you. (Imagine a world where Lee Sin needs to think about tower diving your squishy ass with his nonsense execute damage. Doesn't that sound like a wonderful place to be?) ~Uiru

how would that even work though? it's a targeted dash, it's not like a slow could make him go only 70% of the way towards you when reactivating it. Would he just dash more slowly?

Raptamei2 votes

{quoted}

It would be interesting to see how this might test, but I think this might just make it League of CC rather than League of Mobility.

Good.

1st HanarSpectre5 votes

{quoted}

Good.

No, not good. CC fest is already too potent, giving more power to disable is literally the worst thing that could happen to this game.

7ha7guy77710 votes

i get the feeling Nasus will be very happy with these changes

Zirzon6 votes

The biggest issue with this I can think of is... "clarity." Having you mobility skill being inconsistent (especially if your slowed immediately before using it without realizing) could make it very difficult to keep track of the range (especially using smart cast). Those skills would no longer be reliable at all.

Hoi Im Temmo4 votes

Mundo Like

Quort2 votes

Even if this were to happen, Flash is a Summoner Skill on a high cooldown. It needs to be a reliable escape. If it could be countered by slows to the point that your shortened flash wouldn't even get you over a wall then you probably end up hurting immobile champions a lot more than their mobile counterparts.

Champion Skin1 votes

You could have blinks be unaffected by slows The blinks i can think of are Ezreal Ezreal E Kassadin Kassadin R and Flash there might be some more I can't think of (these abilities already have the advantage of being able to go over Azir Azir R wall and Veigar E (stun cage) without being stunned

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Would require a huge amount of champion rebalancing. There are so many incidental slows in kits and they just became incredibly powerful.

Consider just how crazy Irelia becomes, for example. Her E is supposed to be "use me when you're lower health than the opponent" but now she doesn't really care, because she gets to stick to the target no matter what.

Also, Irelia brings up another relevant question: she has a targeted gap closer like just about every bruiser. If a bruiser is slowed by 30%, does that mean the gap closer only goes 70% of the way to the target?

Tin Tarantino2 votes

Also, Irelia brings up another relevant question: she has a targeted gap closer like just about every bruiser. If a bruiser is slowed by 30%, does that mean the gap closer only goes 70% of the way to the target?

That's how you end up stuck in walls

Uiru2 votes

{quoted}

Would require a huge amount of champion rebalancing. There are so many incidental slows in kits and they just became incredibly powerful.

Consider just how crazy Irelia becomes, for example. Her E is supposed to be "use me when you're lower health than the opponent" but now she doesn't really care, because she gets to stick to the target no matter what.

Also, Irelia brings up another relevant question: she has a targeted gap closer like just about every bruiser. If a bruiser is slowed by 30%, does that mean the gap closer only goes 70% of the way to the target?

The intended interaction that I am proposing is that if the command is locked in, nothing changes. If it is not and you are slowed, the range of the gap closer is reduced to 70% until the slow wears off. You aren't able to click the minion or ward until your mobility is restored.

The infliction of slow would have to be made more prominent, of course, because (as pointed out several times already) this kind of change would make slows relevant (they currently aren't to many champs).

The proposed animation slow instead is interesting as well. The purpose is to make slows work as a counter to mobility, which makes sense, rather than mobility being a counter to slows, which is what we currently have. (And remember, champs pay for slows in their kit, they don't pay for mobility.) ~Uiru

SmokingPuffin1 votes

The intended interaction that I am proposing is that if the command is locked in, nothing changes. If it is not and you are slowed, the range of the gap closer is reduced to 70% until the slow wears off. You aren't able to click the minion or ward until your mobility is restored.

Ok. This is a reasonable approach to targeted gap closers.

The infliction of slow would have to be made more prominent, of course, because (as pointed out several times already) this kind of change would make slows relevant (they currently aren't to many champs).

Right. It's a large undertaking. Balance changes to >50 champions and reworks for Ashe DrMundo Gnar Olaf Nasus Nautilus

The proposed animation slow instead is interesting as well. The purpose is to make slows work as a counter to mobility, which makes sense, rather than mobility being a counter to slows, which is what we currently have. (And remember, champs pay for slows in their kit, they don't pay for mobility.)

Not sure this will do much. Irelia Q at 70% speed is still really fast, and targeted gap closers still end with the slowed attacker on top of the target.

Spacesuit Spiff2 votes

My main issue with that is that using dashes would be annoying with QC on because of the range changing all the time. That's why the range on skills never changes as you level them.

Champion Skin1 votes

You could have that non target mobility instead of losing range loses speed (like attack speed, the less attack speed you have the longer the animation and the attack takes to complete... though the problem with this is that some dashes are so fast that it might not matter Though targeted abilities would have to get shorter range after all when you hit an enemy with a targeted dash you will hit them eventually so slowing it down wouldn't do much (except some of the dashes which can actually miss by having the enemy move away like Jayce hammer stance Q)

Condottiero2 votes

The solution to mobility creep is in the game already.

Targeted stuns.

FiraBurn1 votes

^Thank you its not that hard people jeez.

Champion Skin1 votes

Riot don't like those targeted things because they lack counter-play and thus there will probably just be less and less targeted CC

For instance I am pretty sure Taric will lose his when he is reworked

Condottiero

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PV2EQ8oO,comment-id=00180001,timestamp=2015-01-08T00:23:32.784+0000)

Riot don't like those targeted things because they lack counter-play and thus there will probably just be less and less targeted CC

For instance I am pretty sure Taric will lose his when he is reworked

Why do targeted stuns lack "counterplay"? Is the only counterplay available in this game dodging skillshots?

Champion Skin1 votes

Well I don't mind targeted CC As long as it isn't on an assassin or anything like that

Though there isn't really any way of getting out of a targeted CC (unless you have a spell shield or untargetable) and that generally means that the enemy can follow up with all of their other abilities and if it has too long range it might be a bit too good of a pick tool in mid/late game

skippersd1 votes

I agree with those who said that dashes should have a fixed range. Imagine that you know that your graves dash can take you over a wall, but it can't couse you are slowed. Roots stopping dashes on the other hand is a fine idea. It does not screw over clarity (it actually adds to it, since the guy moves, and when he's hit with something that's supposed to stop movement, he stops moving),

That said it would be interesting to separate dashes and leaps (does you champ leave the ground or not?), and only dashes should have this weakness (thus you COULD jump over a zyra snare with jax, but you can't dash over it with an irelia). Again this would not hurt clarity, since why the hell would something that's on ground level hurt you when you are in the air?

As for the no dashy-dashy item (Shadow Shackles), i'd say it's a good idea, but make it so that the aura has a half second or so windup time, and a clear way of showing where it will be (so you CAN flash/dash the hell away). The reason for this is simple, the sole reason why soraka is really annoying is the instant silence field.

Champion Skin1 votes

Roots stopping dashes? Well there really isn't any height in lol and the only way you could make that work is if you have abilities specifically interact with leaps or if you make champions untargetable while leaping

So Jarvan can't E + Q while rooted anymore?

skippersd1 votes

The leap or dash argument was just a random idea, it's just looks plain dumb that you jump over a caitlyn trap, and still get rooted.

As for j4, yes the proposed change would make any movement ability (except blinks, and some ults like malph and vi) stop if the champ is hit by a root. Sadly for jarvan, unlike others with one dash ability, that cannot be casted while you are rooted, both his Q and E can make sense to use even if you can't move (such as last hitting two 10HP champs.)

FiraBurn1 votes

Bad idea is bad plz stop. Nobody have problems with mobility creeps we dealt with them for long time now why should they change it now. If it's not a problem just leave it alone.

skippersd3 votes

Sadly, it IS a problem. Have you tried to play Ashe on higher lvl? Every single viable champion destroys her, simply because she CAN'T deal with dashes. She is great against garen, or cho, who runs towards you, but that's it. Just do a quick lolking search on anyone who is above gold. The most played champs are those who have at least one dash. THAT's mobility creep.

FiraBurn1 votes

just don't play ashe? So we should nerf a big portion of the game so garbage champs can be played. And last I check syndra, orianna, and sivir get played and none of them have blinks or dash.

skippersd1 votes

I don't know where you checked, but none of these are in the top 20 in popularity. A good example would have been morgana or jinx (picked a lot and no dash), but each of them has something that really sets them apart. Out of the top 10 most played champs, the afformentioned 2 does not have dash. Everyone else does.

(even your comment, the just don't play ashe shows, that some champions whom you dubbed garbage are unviable, because of the mobility creep.

Now that we have established that it exists, we can continue to look for a solution.

FiraBurn1 votes

What solution lol. You played vs them right? And you win vs them right? It's not like it's a instant lost when you played against these "mobility gods". They already lose to hard cc why nerf them more?

skippersd2 votes

The "hard CC" argument is a fallacy, i hope you do realise it. Every single champion in the game dies if you hard CC and focus it. It's simply a fact. Then you gone for the anektodes, if you managed to beat X champion once, it's not OP at all. Another fallacy.

Just think about it. As statistics shows, every player mostly plays champions with dashes. Why?

FiraBurn1 votes

True and true. Every player play champs with dashes because they to good to pass up. I for think champs with dashes are more fun and healthy it feels more interactive unlike non dash/blink champ like kayle, ashe, miss fortune, and varus. Think riot like the game is going and people just need to deal with it we need champs to make cool big plays.

skippersd1 votes

Varus is one of the harder adcs, and has plenty of depth (and a really good wiff chance with the ult) and Q has good range (and good sniping possiblity for those big plays). The obvious problem is, you take a leona against him, and shit on him in lane, couse he can't dash away from leo's E. Yet another example is Draven. A well played draven is a sight to behold, even without dashes.

Then again, these champs punish you if you are in a bad place. They require impeccable positioning. They require kiting. Or i can pick lucian, outdamage them all game long, AND have a dash every 10 second for those times i screw up.

Make no mistake, I'm not AGAINST dashes in general. But a champion who is safer than the other because of a built in escape SHOULD have some sort of drawback. Ezreal has it, since a good part of his damage is with Qs, and those can be missed. Corki has poor late game. Caitlyn is an ADC with a piss poor steroid. Of course, these are champions who were properly balanced, and dashes were a privilige, not a default thing.

Champion Skin1 votes

Another problem with the whole "just CC them" is that they have mobility and most CC are tied to skill-shots making things troublesome

skippersd1 votes

OR you can WW ult them. :D

Ale non è male1 votes

Then item 3022 on ranged champs would be OP. Bad idea It's just a design problem. Mobility has to be present at a certain cost/giving a certain weaknesses. Find the champ that gets more than what they should along their mobility and subtract something, then the problem is solved

Toru Itai1 votes

instead of changing the dash range, make them dash more slowly wile slowed. that way it dosn't interfear with consistency(only sometimes wall jumping ect), but the jump takes more time therefor it's less effective and they don't move as far away from you/close to you if you're chasing/running.

(if this was already offered i'm sorry. i didn't read past the first page.)

deadlychuck1 votes

While I think the changes to snares/roots would be perfectly fine to implement as is, i think that just attaching reduced dash range onto a slow would be to much.

If you were to reduce the range a champion can use their mobility, then it would have to be a new type of CC, that could easily be attached to or replace some existing slows.

Although this use to actually be a thing for a hand full of the champions Tristana being the main one that comes to mind. Though they removed it a little while back.

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