"We think Sona is strong so we're going to nerf her before people figure it out."

Uiru··121 votes·10,105 views

"We know for an absolute fact that Lee Sin is broken beyond words but we're going to leave him alone because we're Riot Games and this is how we do things around here."

Why not just remove all the other champions and have every game be five Lee Sins? Because this is clearly Riot's actual design philosophy. They can waffle on about counterplay and preserving identities and meaningful interaction and mobility costing SOMETHING but every word out of their mouths is hard countered by Lee Sin, and they know it, and yet they refuse to address him. You could put a literal reverse Eve vision circle around Lee Sin (player can't see beyond it) and he would STILL be gamebreakingly OP.

The message is clear: The rules, arbitrary and occasionally flawed as they are, simply do not apply to Lee Sin. I'd ask why, but we already know why. ~Uiru

186 Comments

BastionKross51 votes

Lee is Daddy Riot's favorite child. They won't nerf him in a meaningful way as long as he keeps making those flashy LCS plays they like so much.

Sona is a sustain support and can make for an uninteresting laning phase to watch, so she must be gutted and kept hidden in a closet next to Taric and Soraka.

Vanijorou6 votes

That's a pretty big assumption. I'm not going to go with the "lee sin falls off" argument, but if he doesn't build tanky he is definitely not as useful as your carries during the late game.

Vellich0r5 votes

the thing that makes him useful is his potential to Insec, if you can pull off those 'flashy' insec plays then you have some form of high utility and good synergy. the fact that this is possible (despite its relative difficulty and the ease with which it can be countered) makes him 'gamebreakingly OP' to most players.

iConcy13 votes

I don't think he's broken because of this at all, its the fact that he has so much mobility and utility while also bring the pick potential AND has an incredibly strong early and mid game with an execute-gap-closer Q that hardly has a CD. Not to mention the base damage on his ult is high throughout the game with a more than enough level of scaling. It has 600 raw damage which is one of the highest in the game (i believe for a one target ability)

Antonidas110 votes

Riot Logic at its finest ( sadly )...

patmax1717 votes

Outrageous!! item 3070 Taric item 3070

(my beloved Taric T__T)

CG SereN4 votes

The focus towards "action-packed plays" seems to be hitting all E-Sports, and I assume its because they are starting to get larger audiences overall, and they see more value in general movement.

Starcraft 2 is also being hit by this, with Legacy of the Void showing a lot more micro-intensive changes, and League is seeing a lot of champs that, if nothing else, "look exiting" (Kalista's stutter step movement pattern looks more interesting then Caitlyns gameplay)

I don't think its much of a stretch to see who people would rather see in bot lane:

Thresh + Kalista v Vayne + Blitzcrank

or

Caitlyn + Sona v Ashe + Soraka

(My moneys on the Hook lane)

Keevalroy45 votes

Zac was a bit overbearing - gets put through a blender and left to mold on the floor. Elise isn't flashy enough - crushed with a steel-toed boot and lit on fire just to make sure she's dead. LeeSin is just right for #LC$BIGPLAY$ but the players want him nerfed - gets a slap on the wrist and is told "stahp et."

Pika31039 votes

Riot's current philosophies:

Nerf all underpowered champions

Add extra counterplay to champions that already have it

Ignore top picks (namely Lee Sin, Thresh, Lucian, ect.)

Skins and visual updates are quantity over quality

The players are always wrong, Riot is always right

The support class should not exist

Lying to the players is alright if it temporarily improves Riot's image

FiniteApple5 votes

LeeSin and Lucian Have been repeatedly nerfed. idk bout thresh tho

Keevalroy21 votes

LeeSin and Lucian Have been repeatedly nerfed. idk bout thresh tho

Lee was hardly touched, and it's not fair to call Lucian's nerfs legitimate since he survives each one like some kind of gun-bearing psychopathic cockroach.

More than that, he ADAPTS to the changes, and sometimes, he mutates into something even stronger than he was before!

IceKingChernobog9 votes

Agreed with lucian, Everyone should remember the patch of 4.12 where he was gamebreakingly OP 40% cdr with manaless dashes ever 6 seconds and gets cooldown taken off by his passive. Not broken at all

then there twitch who by some reason got popular, he gets overbearing nerfs to practically everything that defines him with no compensation what so ever

manbearswine5 votes

then there twitch who by some reason got popular, he gets overbearing nerfs to practically everything that defines him with no compensation what so ever

And yet still manages to be the third most contested adc at worlds. The twitch nerfs were deserved,just because a champion didn't get much attention doesn't mean he is immune to nerfs,he saw a lot of competitive play and got what he,thresh,lee,lucian deserve,the problem is that they keep avoiding that.

DemiluniS2 votes

LeeSin and Lucian Have been repeatedly nerfed. idk bout thresh tho

Lee was hardly touched, and it's not fair to call Lucian's nerfs legitimate since he survives each one like some kind of gun-bearing psychopathic cockroach.

More than that, he ADAPTS to the changes, and sometimes, he mutates into something even stronger than he was before!

What the fuck do you mean survives? With every nerf he's getting weaker but still viable, nerfs not supposed to keep camps in trash tier unless their kit is extremely toxic and unfunded to play against

Keevalroy6 votes

What the fuck do you mean survives? With every nerf he's getting weaker but still viable

Wouldn't you call that...gasp surviving?

SpecterVonBaren18 votes

LeeSin and Lucian Have been repeatedly nerfed. idk bout thresh tho

Lee was hardly touched, and it's not fair to call Lucian's nerfs legitimate since he survives each one like some kind of gun-bearing psychopathic cockroach.

More than that, he ADAPTS to the changes, and sometimes, he mutates into something even stronger than he was before!

Hey guys! Let's nerf Lucian by giving him a cost free dash and make it so he can perpetually have it on a two second cooldown!

I swear, I still have no idea how that change made it through (And thank God they gave it a mana cost again). Even if you see Riot's balance team as being incompetent, that was just beyond dumb.

LordGeovanni5 votes

LeeSin and Lucian Have been repeatedly nerfed. idk bout thresh tho

lucian got a range nerf and then buffs in nearly every other aspect w e passive and r

catraven9 votes

Riot's current philosophies:

that's amazingly accurate :P

Diostukos29 votes

A few weeks of resurgence and immediately nerfed. Stay strong Sona ;_;7

Sailor Mint6 votes

Is 12 weeks of sitting at 52%+ win rate really considered short now?

As a reminder, Heimer had 2 weeks of glory.

Diostukos15 votes

Is 12 weeks of sitting at 52%+ win rate really considered short now?

As a reminder, Heimer had 2 weeks of glory.

So you're saying Amumu, Warwick, and Fiora (getting nerfed as well haha what) deserve nerfs too?

Winrate =/= unbalanced, especially when the champions have a low pickrate.

ActualPain19 votes

Wow a lot of hate here.... I understand the flashy-play LCS argument, but I think this Riot-bashing has been taken too far. A Lee Sin is not overpowered unless he's fed. You're not going to see a 1/4/1 Lee Sin getting 1v3 triples. Granted, his ult and mobility make him useful regardless of his damage output, but this does NOT make him OP.

Guess what is just as annoying as a fed Lee Sin? A fed Vi! A fed Kha'zix! A fed Poppy for godsakes!! Any and every champion is annoying as hell and "OP" in the hands of the right summoner.

To address the root problem here: I'm sick of seeing Riot blamed and used as an excuse for summoners to not learn the game. These constant shouts of "Nerf Lee! Nerf Lucian!" are cop-outs for frustrated players who make the same mistakes against the same champions. Yes, there is a way to counterplay "OP" champions; just because you haven't figured it out yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If a champion was truly overpowered, any League player could pick him up and dominate easily. Without a doubt this is not the case with Lee.

Big Cute Boy9 votes

You had me until you said Lucian didn't need a Nerf. When a 12/3/6 Warwick loses to a 3/4/3 Lucian when both are face tanking each others abilities there is a problem. Lee is annoying because he basically has 3 escapes. He can q into the jungle, he can jump to a ward over pretty much any walls, and if all else fails, he can r people away and just wait for his other cool downs to be back. if they want to fix him they should do what they did to Mr. crocodile (Renekton) but the same thing that always happens will happen, another champion will pop up to fill the niche of "freelo jangler" and have every player crying "op op op need nerf xddd" like how ryze ryzed when others faded. Now he has an unnecessary Nerf and is shit mid. if riot keeps up with this eventually every champion will be dickplank. Useless and non scaling. But they really do need to stop nerfing/breaking people like Scorpio man.

ThePurpleKnight18 votes

Let us be reminded on Skarner.

One of the ten least played champions in the game.

Nerfed: Loss of stickiness

Nerfed: Regain Stickiness, loss of duel potential, losing tons of damage and increasing cool downs. (not directly but through loss of amazing passive)

Nerfed: Loss of even more damage and lessen stickiness.

It's not that Riot doesn't care about balance, it's more that they don't know shit about balance. A lot of recently nerfed champions were intended as buffs, and Skarner was no exception, it's clear Riot thinks they buffed him, but all they ever do is nerf undeservedly, Sion was the same (though most can't understand these nerfs since they didn't play these champions)

First they start by choosing an identity, then call the champion a tank no matter what it's actual class is. Then ignore how strong other tanks base damage and scaling is, and lower the base damage with the idea that this is a tank and doesn't need damage. Lastly give more CC whether necessary or not because they think tanks should be nothing more than CC whores.

Skarner Original Class : Fighter Class in Moron Reworker's Eyes: Tank Loses: about 60% of his damage, one of the best passives in the game, a perma slow Gains: another movement speed buff, and a .5 second interrupt which is entirely useless to the champion.

Sion Original Class: Fighter Class in Riots Eyes: Tank Loses: 100% lifesteal (5500 Gold Value), attack speed, 40% chance to get rid of damage dealt, 70 AD, and a click stun with 90% AP scaling. Gains: Knock up, Knock up, Slow, Armor Shred. Really bad Kog'Maw passive.

I don't know what is missing from the brains of Riot employees that makes them think these are good changes, but both of these are weaker than they used to be.

I challenge Riot to make 4.9 Skarner 1v1 4.10 Skarner.

Idc if 4.10 Skarner copies this build but make 4.9 Skarner use Trinity Force, Wits End, Spirit Visage, Randuins, and old 1000 hp warmogs. 4.10 can use any 5 item build literally, make them both face tank each other 1v1, to simulate how it would end up if both landed everything, I guarantee 4.10 Skarner doesn't stand a chance in a 1v1.

Do the same with Sion. Old Sion uses Ravenous Hydra, BotRK, Bloodthirster, Randuins, and Spirit Visage (yea an MR item, not even going against an AP champ) So confident old Sion would win, that I don't even question if Spirit Visage is right, literally doesn't matter, old Sion was better.

Rebonack22 votes

Do the same with Sion. Old Sion uses Ravenous Hydra, BotRK, Bloodthirster, Randuins, and Spirit Visage (yea an MR item, not even going against an AP champ) So confident old Sion would win, that I don't even question if Spirit Visage is right, literally doesn't matter, old Sion was better.

The Sion remake irritates the hell out of me not because this new champion is bad (he is) but because he's a totally new champion wearing Sion's head like a hat. It's the same reason I hated the Eve remake.

Eve was originally a Fighter first and foremost. Trinity/tanky was more or less standard on her. Then Riot remade her into an AP Assassin. Then they decided that they didn't want her to be an AP Assassin, so people started building her like a Fighter again. Then Riot decided they didn't want her to be a Fighter, either, and let us know she's supposed to be an AD Assassin. At this point Eve is a complete mess and needs a remake again.

Narasimha13 votes

You arbitrarily label Sion as a fighter, when half the people played him as a mage. That was part of his issue, he didn't even have a real class to fit into. Also, I'm not sure you're so qualified to be commenting on balance either since you apparently think 40% chance to get rid of damage dealt a click stun with 90% AP scaling are good things.

Rebonack9 votes

a click stun with 90% AP scaling are good things.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with targeted CC at all. It's the best way to keep highly mobile champions in check.

Narasimha9 votes

a click stun with 90% AP scaling are good things.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with targeted CC at all. It's the best way to keep highly mobile champions in check.

Oh a targeted stun by itself is fine. A target stun with good scaling and decent duration is the problem.

Rebonack5 votes

a click stun with 90% AP scaling are good things.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with targeted CC at all. It's the best way to keep highly mobile champions in check.

Oh a targeted stun by itself is fine. A target stun with good scaling and decent duration is the problem.

The general nerfing of CC duration is another factor that helped to contribute to the game's present state of mobility creep. The weaker CC is, the more powerful glassy, highly mobile, high damage output champions are.

When it comes to mages, Riot has been slowly shifting kit power over to item power over the years. AP Sion was just fine and dandy until Deathcap was introduced, which pushed him over the top and he got nerfs to make up for it. This cycle has been repeated with Athenes, Deathfire, Lichbane, and Torment on a wide variety of champions.

There's nothing wrong with a targeted stun that has strong scaling and a decent duration. I would go so far as to say that Riot's seeming vendetta against powerful skills that aren't Lee's Ult is one of my least favorite things about how the game has changed over the years. I think champions with powerful, impactful abilities are fun.

helligdage17 votes

"looking to lower her sustain a bit overall, particularly in cases where a lot of damage has been traded on both sides and Sona/her allies recovery's a bit faster than we think's appropriate"

.................<_<.................

"Other wise however immediate heals offer a lot of benefits, since they lead to skilled clutch plays, are easier to read for all players (clarity benefits of applying the effect all at once) and therefore have higher satisfaction versus power (easier to read = feels better)." does this sound like word diarrhea to anyone else?

"skilled clutch plays"

"clutch plays"

"clutch"

why does EVERYTHING have to be clutch? why does everything have to be flashy? and CLARTIYCLCLLARITYsummoner 13 CLARITY???? what if i like my Sona the way she is, slowly withering you down while SLOWLY (10 second CD, with an average of 175 heal) healing herself and ONE other team mate up (that she doesn't even get to choose) leaving my enemies in a state of 'huh'? are you kidding me??

can we gut Jayce, too? sorry, i don't like the way he kills me from half way across a lane after 'damage has been traded on both sides.' oh wait no we can't do that, because clutch

god i'm so sick of Riot sometimes.

DuhRin14 votes

I think they want to see how he does in the new jungle when other types of junglers will presumably be strong.

I'm sure he and kha will still be strong junglers, but hopefully the new jungle will bring some diversity Still, our hearts go out to Sona in her time of need

RisottoNero10 votes

Riot doesn't care about balance. They only care about money and will nerf whatever is boring to see getting play.

Unidad9 votes

Meanwhile Riven. Meanwhile Fizz.

LankPants9 votes

Lee manages to be far worse than both, and Riv hasn't been a problem for a long time.

The Whamboozler8 votes

Because Lee Sin is the way they want to take the game. Super mobile overloaded bruiser/assassins that make flashy plays. Lee Sin is their success story for what they want to turn the game into. Not saying that's GOOD, but it's what they're going for. Mobility creep and overloaded kits are in. Immobility and targeted abilities are out.

Besides, if anyone is a tumor of OP that deserves to be scrapped off the game and set on fire it's Fizz, not Lee. Untargetable, mobility skills and huge burst? Seems fair.

It Is I Emoto8 votes

So.. Sona get's nerfed just because people play her well? I had to go already through this rework that still feels extremely weak and she has to go again through nerfs? Her Q does not apply on turrets, which made her pushing powers with her adc much weaker, and it seems like that I can't use it any more for anything except for poking the enemy adc. And the fact that I have to build AP just to make Sonas auras scale better into late game.

Mainly her Q recieved a minor nerf (wich was not really needed) and her W, wich got a mayor nerf. I've mentioned it in a thread two weeks ago, and it seems like that no rioter did take their time answer my questions why she got those nerfs. Yeah, she has the power to stall with her heals, but.. did you look at other supports?

Soraka has a 2 sec heal, even if she has to donate her health, don't you think that she can pretty much spam her heals? And Nami, she has a 10 sec heal, though she can heal multiple targets and trade with it.. Taric, who has a 14 sec heal, though it scales on ap and bonus health, wich makes it scale very well into late game for a tank support like him. Nidalee as well, who has a great heal for an assasin/fighter who can help out at bot at times.

Sona can't even compete with those heals, and only reaches their scalings if Sonas target is at the edge of DYING

I was already complaining about this rework as Sona main, and nerfing it again, like it's toxic? Yeah, consider that she can change a whole teamfight with flash+crescendo, but that has nothing to do with her Q and W. It's just how to play Sona good, and if Sona gets nerfed because her players are good with her, then it's dumb. I already said about it, that champions who get permabanned should been looked at, because people really don't want to fight against those champions for a reason. Sona, her kit, and her scalings are not a mayor treat to the game or players, so consider again if you gonna nerf her.

Esinti3 votes

So.. Sona get's nerfed just because people play her well? I had to go already through this rework that still feels extremely weak and she has to go again through nerfs? Her Q does not apply on turrets, which made her pushing powers with her adc much weaker, and it seems like that I can't use it any more for anything except for poking the enemy adc. And the fact that I have to build AP just to make Sonas auras scale better into late game.

Mainly her Q recieved a minor nerf (wich was not really needed) and her W, wich got a mayor nerf. I've mentioned it in a thread two weeks ago, and it seems like that no rioter did take their time answer my questions why she got those nerfs. Yeah, she has the power to stall with her heals, but.. did you look at other supports?

Soraka has a 2 sec heal, even if she has to donate her health, don't you think that she can pretty much spam her heals? And Nami, she has a 10 sec heal, though she can heal multiple targets and trade with it.. Taric, who has a 14 sec heal, though it scales on ap and bonus health, wich makes it scale very well into late game for a tank support like him. Nidalee as well, who has a great heal for an assasin/fighter who can help out at bot at times.

Sona can't even compete with those heals, and only reaches their scalings if Sonas target is at the edge of DYING

I was already complaining about this rework as Sona main, and nerfing it again, like it's toxic? Yeah, consider that she can change a whole teamfight with flash+crescendo, but that has nothing to do with her Q and W. It's just how to play Sona good, and if Sona gets nerfed because her players are good with her, then it's dumb. I already said about it, that champions who get permabanned should been looked at, because people really don't want to fight against those champions for a reason. Sona, her kit, and her scalings are not a mayor treat to the game or players, so consider again if you gonna nerf her.

+1

Pika3105 votes

Unfortunately, countless trolls on the forums keep crying "winrates" and it's tricked the balance team into believing this propaganda. Riot refuses to listen to any players that make logical and well-thought out posts and they refuse to apply mathematics to their decision-making.

Either that or the balance team is completely biased in favor of Nami, who matter-of-factly outdamages and outheals Sona more than 2 to 1.

It Is I Emoto3 votes

What was even her winrates before her rework? did they explode like to 60%? I don't think so. She was not really in a need of a rework, but making her rework so weak and then nerf it again for no real reason, except that she's a little bit above 50% is dumb.

MAZZ1M03 votes

It'd be a pain to count how many good arguments there are. I have to say, I'm surprised and a little proud of my fellow Sona players for coming up with so many good analyses and thought-out arguments. Despite our shared hate of her treatment, it's refreshing to see logic and thought put into feedback across so much of the Sona community here on the boards. It's too easy to find senseless rage threads about (insert topic here.)

Fearless went on to work on the SR update around the time the Soraka rework came out (as far as I know.) He was opposed to buffs anyway, so no great loss there. (I don't hate you Fearless, just your heartless gutting of Sona. SR is amazing.) Sona did havea spike in popularity after the Q range was fixed and her winrate spiked after a steady decline following the rework. I check her stats from time to time on LolKing. I posted a chart on an older Sona thread. Her winrate and pickrate dropped steadily following the rework only rising during her free-to-play weeks. Even still, while winrate doesn't necessarily mean she's strong, there is a correlation due to various factors. The rework itself caused problems when problems didn't exist though. So regardless of her winrate, she is worse for wear in almost every aspect of their own design philosophy. The problem they run into (which is a problem they could easily ignore as it really isn't a problem -it's purely OCD) is that Sona's core self (pre-rework) is a slow painful death holy shite, just like Ashe! Her power wasn't incredibly visible, but I challenge anyone to find an adc that didn't like having Sona around. E slow, Q passive dmg, W heal and armor? That was useful, even the speeding up of minions after recall was nice. It was small, but it helped take aggro off the turret if the adc wasn't around or needed help. The visual effects of the rework were nice, but the changes should've stopped there -also I want the arcade effects back.

The fact Sona arguments are popping up even this much later should be indicative something is still wrong.

Salidfingers7 votes

Only thing I hate about sona is lichbane, Wait that isn't sona.....

Alëk5 votes

Sustain junglers are gonna do really well in the new jungle since they have the distinct advantage of staying and farming much longer than other champs. I've seen a lot of Nunu and Warwick in PBE recently.

Rozzeta5 votes

"We think that Sona had too much sustain, so we reduced the ratio of her attack 'aura' so she now heals less" - Riot

Also, did they think of Chalice's nerf before raising W's mana cost?

BlinxyBoy5 votes

So Sona gets nerfed just because some of us have been spending every waking moment perfecting our game with her. I main support Sona ( or use to ) Sona was not a threat in lane. She has 1 attack ( that can't even be fin used on turrets ) besides her basic and her heals are lacking compared to Nami's. WTF is with this nerf? Now I either have to switch my support main or spend countless hours re perfecting my game with her. Sometimes I swear the Riot team members that do these nerfs were hired off the street.....

RIP Sona you will be missed!! <3 <3

clickhead4 votes

To be honest right now Sona is a LOT stronger than Lee Sin, you can't really compare them. Sona's win rate is one of the highest, depending on when you check it's sometimes higher than Rammus' win rate. Lee Sin has one of the lowest win rates because he is so weak late game (you need to have had a very successful early game in order to be really relevant as Lee Sin late game.

Diostukos14 votes

To be honest right now Sona is a LOT stronger than Lee Sin, you can't really compare them. Sona's win rate is one of the highest, depending on when you check it's sometimes higher than Rammus' win rate. Lee Sin has one of the lowest win rates because he is so weak late game (you need to have had a very successful early game in order to be really relevant as Lee Sin late game.

No, the reason her winrate is high because only players who know how to play her use her (not saying she takes massive skill or anything) use her, meanwhile Lee has the third highest pick rate next to Thresh (another strong champ with a not-too-high winrate).

TheSlappySlap1 votes

Sona is quite possibly the easiest champion to play in the game.

manbearswine4 votes

Sona is quite possibly the easiest champion to play in the game.

Soraka and Taric would like to have a word with you.

I'd even say thresh and morgana,I mean at least sona can die for making mistakes.

Gaulrik2 votes

What makes Lee Sin overpowered? I used to play him a lot, and he was strong, but I didn't feel "overpowered". I stopped playing him because I played him a lot and got bored of him. Is it just his insane mobility that people dislike?

Circuit Bear5 votes

He has basically everything you could really want in a kit. Which makes him absurdly frustrating to play against. ASpd buff, no resource that matters, highest health regen in the game, shield,+ escape+ lifesteal on a short cooldown, One of the highest damage scalings in the game(plus an execute on his q), due to said high ratios and execute, has one of the best dragon steals in the game, aoe slow, long range knockbackup/knockup,

Basically, he is extremely forgiving to play due to how rediculously powerful his health regen and shield/dash makes him, has absurd scalings so he can snowball hard enough if he wants to build full ad and 2 shot you before you can react(his ult has literally the highest ad scaling of any ability along with cait).

Due to the range of his q, and the wardhopping potential, his ganks are really frustrating to deal with because he has so many ins.

Due to all of this and his overall dueling potential, its not entirely that he is "overpowered", its that you see him so stupidly often and he shuts out a lot of other junglers. Most of which who were nerfed to the ground in ways that lee sin has avoided.

Lee Sin and Lucian both get this rare treatment where if they are ever nerfed, it ends up being a side grade where they get a small buff in return. Where as most other charactesr get hard nerfed to the point only people trying very hard to say "they are viable" still play them. (Soraka is getting nerfed for no real reason on an ability that makes very little sense for example).

I know a lot of us from Season 2 just want him to die and get olaffed just cause we are so, ridiculously tired of seeing him. He's not fun to play again, there is very little counter play to him wardhopping in front of you, landing his kick then slowing you so if you flash he can just follow and you didn't have a hope of dodging. Or him counter jungling you and knowing there is no point in chasing because Lee Sin.

3 Seasons of dominance is enough. He needs to get put down for a while, like EVERY other character is.

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